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Anon-E-moose
Watchman
Joined: 23 May 2008
Posts: 6097
Location: Dallas area
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 Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 7:42 pm Post subject: |
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| happosai wrote: | | So you should just get over it that he doesn't really care about if a distro uses it or not. |
Indeed, either make another choice if the distro allows or choose another distro.
For a long time, I simply downloaded packages and compiled them on my own, no distro, just me and my needs.
If no distro suits my needs I'll go back to doing that. It's not the end of the world.
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steveL
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Joined: 13 Sep 2006
Posts: 5153
Location: The Peanut Gallery
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| Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 8:14 pm Post subject: |
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| happosai wrote: | | "I don't think PID 1 is that especial," |
I haven't viewed the video, as I don't really care about what a kernel coder thinks about userspace, since they have to have the (continual) perspective that userspace is crazy/buggy/malicious, or they're not doing their job right. But I find it very hard to believe he said that, since every beginner knows that pid1 crashing brings down the whole machine. So this is nonsense, in factual terms.
It's no different as a process, sure. Again, from the perspective of the kernel; it gets scheduled etc just like any other process.
| Quote: | | The problem I got with Systemd, literally before Systemd got started this must have been I'd like to say five years ago but that's a number completely made up Lennart was giving a talk about UUIDs to the kernel people at the kernel summit and we laughed him out of the room, UUIDs are crazy shit, they are up there with XML - bad ideas and exposing them as something really cool and clever was I felt just stupid and I was not the only one. |
Indeed Poettering has come out, and keeps on coming out, with utterly dumbass ideas. XML in Unix system configs is utterly insane.
| Quote: | | At the same time there is not question that the UNIX init system is not wonderful and it wasn't being very actively maintained |
Again factually incorrect, because surprise, surprise, he's not a userland coder, so he is not up to date with what is/was happening in userland. openrc was a game-changing step-change up from sysvrc; that the "mainstream" distros continued with their amateur-hour lol-bashish is irrelevant to the state-of-the-art.
| Quote: | | So you should just get over it that he doesn't really care about if a distro uses it or not. |
What do you base that assertion on?
There's nothing to get over, since you've attributed a completely false position to my words. I know he doesn't care, and my point was that we shouldn't expect, nor in fact want him to care, since he's supposed to worry about kernel-space, not userland.
So in fact, my position is, and self-evidently was, that it's good that he doesn't care.
I think this strawman is yours: would you mind removing it? It's rather smelly. |
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Anon-E-moose
Watchman
Joined: 23 May 2008
Posts: 6097
Location: Dallas area
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| Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 8:28 pm Post subject: |
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| steveL wrote: | | openrc was a game-changing step-change up from sysvrc |
I like openrc and wish it had been more widely adopted, but outside gentoo,
I don't know of any major distro that was using it, and because of that it's not widely known.
There are a few choices for going forward (outside of embracing sysd)
1. fix sys5init
2. replace it with something else, take your pick runit/s6/whatever
3. keep sys5init, and enhance openrc to add the few things needed for daemon monitoring, etc.
They all have their strengths and their weaknesses. There is no holy grail, at least AFAIK (at the moment)
Edit to add: The distros that have changed to sysd (outside of RH and clones) will need a compelling reason to change to something else.
They need the things that sysd offers (whether implemented correctly or not) logind, cgroup handling, etc.
It's gone beyond just being about init systems.
Everyone needs to recognize this and go forward whether they like the landscape or not.
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gcc 13, profile 17.0 (custom bare multilib), openrc, wayland |
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steveL
Watchman
Joined: 13 Sep 2006
Posts: 5153
Location: The Peanut Gallery
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| Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 9:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Anon-E-moose wrote: | There are a few choices for going forward (outside of embracing sysd)
1. fix sys5init
2. replace it with something else, take your pick runit/s6/whatever
3. keep sys5init, and enhance openrc to add the few things needed for daemon monitoring, etc.
They all have their strengths and their weaknesses. There is no holy grail, at least AFAIK (at the moment) |
You're making the same mistake again: sysvinit is not, and never was, the issue; sysvrc was, and we moved past that a long time ago.
So 3 is the best option afaic, though sysvinit is still not a problem, and personally I'd use it for runit as well, if I were interested in running that.
| Quote: | The distros that have changed to sysd (outside of RH and clones) will need a compelling reason to change to something else.
They need the things that sysd offers (whether implemented correctly or not) logind, cgroup handling, etc.
It's gone beyond just being about init systems.
Everyone needs to recognize this and go forward whether they like the landscape or not. |
cgroups are handled very well in openrc; all we need going forward is to check that the kernel doesn't break ABI (which would be a first, if done intentionally); options that conflict can be disabled as part of the openrc gentoo config option. Personally I won't ever be enabling kdbus, though we might use some of the underlying mechanisms, to make a more generic version that would be a candidate for mq standardisation. We'll likely the implement the API first, with current (standard) mechanisms, though.
Logind is another "cure" looking for a problem, when in fact it is a problem in and of itself: we'll just provide the lib calls for the DE, and perhaps patch them not to use leech-RPC to talk to the DM.
But I don't really care about other distros: they can do w/e they want. I'm only up for patching KDE, as well. |
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Anon-E-moose
Watchman
Joined: 23 May 2008
Posts: 6097
Location: Dallas area
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| Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 9:55 pm Post subject: |
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| steveL wrote: | | Anon-E-moose wrote: | There are a few choices for going forward (outside of embracing sysd)
1. fix sys5init
2. replace it with something else, take your pick runit/s6/whatever
3. keep sys5init, and enhance openrc to add the few things needed for daemon monitoring, etc.
They all have their strengths and their weaknesses. There is no holy grail, at least AFAIK (at the moment) |
You're making the same mistake again: sysvinit is not, and never was, the issue; sysvrc was, and we moved past that a long time ago. |
I'm not making a mistake. And I don't confuse sysvrc with sysvinit.
It's fine for what it does but it has it's problems which is why openrc came about along with things like runit being spawned from it.
I'm not blind to its flaws.
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PRIME x570-pro, 3700x, 6.1 zen kernel
gcc 13, profile 17.0 (custom bare multilib), openrc, wayland |
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steveL
Watchman
Joined: 13 Sep 2006
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Location: The Peanut Gallery
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| Posted: Fri Oct 03, 2014 2:38 am Post subject: |
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| Anon-E-moose wrote: | | steveL wrote: | | Anon-E-moose wrote: | There are a few choices for going forward (outside of embracing sysd)
1. fix sys5init
2. replace it with something else, take your pick runit/s6/whatever
3. keep sys5init, and enhance openrc to add the few things needed for daemon monitoring, etc.
They all have their strengths and their weaknesses. There is no holy grail, at least AFAIK (at the moment) |
You're making the same mistake again: sysvinit is not, and never was, the issue; sysvrc was, and we moved past that a long time ago. |
I'm not making a mistake. And I don't confuse sysvrc with sysvinit.
It's fine for what it does but it has it's problems which is why openrc came about along with things like runit being spawned from it
I'm not blind to its flaws. |
What does "it" refer to? Above you're discussing fixing/replacing sysvinit, and "openrc came about" but openrc never replaced sysvinit. If you're discussing sysvrc which openrc did replace, then I don't know what the point of it is, since we moved off it a decade ago.
sysvinit is fine; there's nothing to fix. It does more than enough for pid1, which is all it's meant to do. |
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happosai
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Joined: 17 Aug 2005
Posts: 43
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| Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2014 9:24 am Post subject: |
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| steveL wrote: | Again factually incorrect, because surprise, surprise, he's not a userland coder, so he is not up to date with what is/was happening in userland. openrc was a game-changing step-change up from sysvrc; that the "mainstream" distros continued with their amateur-hour lol-bashish is irrelevant to the state-of-the-art.
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Contrary to Linus Torvalds though Theodore Ts'o, also a well known kernel hacker, has written multiple statements about and mostly against Systemd. You can find those on his Google+ page mostly. |
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steveL
Watchman
Joined: 13 Sep 2006
Posts: 5153
Location: The Peanut Gallery
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| Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2014 9:42 pm Post subject: |
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| happosai wrote: | | Contrary to Linus Torvalds though Theodore Ts'o, also a well known kernel hacker, has written multiple statements about and mostly against Systemd. |
Indeed; as an FS developer he has a lot more interaction with userspace and admins. He also wrote they wouldn't be breaking existing usage of cgroups, a while ago, but idk where it is on the web or anything.
In any event it's clear we'll need to keep an eye on kernel config changes for the next few years, but that's always been part of maintaining a Gentoo install in any case, ime, so it's nothing new.
I very much doubt that openrc will stop working, since it doesn't require much from the base system. |
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