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Anon-E-moose
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Joined: 23 May 2008
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 Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2014 2:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Naib wrote: | | And people wonder why some of us want to keep well away from the Anti-sysD camp... I would rather be labelled Pro-Sysd (which incidentally isn't the case) then be associated with such vitriolic personalities |
I agree that his "personality" is pretty sickening, but if I were a rabid sysd fanboi I would take this tactic
to discredit those who don't want to use it and thereby cause all those who choose not to, to be labeled "haters", etc.
I have no idea of his "affiliation per sysd"...lets just leave it that he doesn't really belong here as long as he's going to keep on the way he has been.
The death threats, personal attacks are horrid no matter who they come from and they need to stop.
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depontius
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| Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2014 2:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Anon-E-moose wrote: | | Naib wrote: | | And people wonder why some of us want to keep well away from the Anti-sysD camp... I would rather be labelled Pro-Sysd (which incidentally isn't the case) then be associated with such vitriolic personalities |
I agree that his "personality" is pretty sickening, but if I were a rabid sysd fanboi I would take this tactic
to discredit those who don't want to use it and thereby cause all those who choose not to, to be labeled "haters", etc.
I have no idea of his "affiliation per sysd"...lets just leave it that he doesn't really belong here as long as he's going to keep on the way he has been.
The death threats, personal attacks are horrid no matter who they come from and they need to stop. |
Maybe you're absolutely right, and he's really a systemd fan here attempting to discredit us by his actions. I'm one of the less vitriolic members of the anti-systemd-Borg camp, and there are many with stronger remedies than mie, but this guy is way out there beyond anyone else.
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Anon-E-moose
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| Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2014 2:41 pm Post subject: |
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| depontius wrote: | | Maybe you're absolutely right, and he's really a systemd fan here attempting to discredit us by his actions. |
I have no idea if he is pro or con sysd, and neither does anyone else.
I just wanted to have another view out there since posts will get put on google and others will use them for "ammunition" in their war.
I'm neither pro nor anti sysd, I don't care about it at all, just don't want it forced upon my system(s) even in a round-a-bout way.
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Naib
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| Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2014 3:58 pm Post subject: |
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That would be an interesting tactic by pro-SysD.
iif gentoo is starting to appear as a utopia to non-sysd with a pro-choice *IF* they could discredit "gentoo" by the attitude of a few, they could cite it as why gentoo's stance against Sysd isn't a technical one but just a rant.
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RazielFMX
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| Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2014 4:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Anon-E-moose wrote: | | depontius wrote: | | Maybe you're absolutely right, and he's really a systemd fan here attempting to discredit us by his actions. |
I have no idea if he is pro or con sysd, and neither does anyone else.
I just wanted to have another view out there since posts will get put on google and others will use them for "ammunition" in their war.
I'm neither pro nor anti sysd, I don't care about it at all, just don't want it forced upon my system(s) even in a round-a-bout way. |
This. I don't care about systemd; I just do not want to use it. My issue with systemd (barring technical reasons, which would not matter except for this social fact) is the fact that it is being forced upon system after system in violation of the spirit of choice that OSS has traditionally represented (at least from my perspective; I use Linux, Gentoo in particular, because I can choose exactly how my system operates). It would not matter how technically bad/awesome systemd is if I have an option to never use it.
I believe Red Hat should be given all the noose they want with which to hang themselves. If they manage to do something really great with systemd, awesome for Linux! If not, only they are affected. I don't like that LP and company seem to want to bring all of Linux to the gallows with them. I believe (and maybe I'm wrong) that systemd is a bad solution looking for a problem. Only time will tell. |
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depontius
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| Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2014 4:43 pm Post subject: |
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| RazielFMX wrote: | | Anon-E-moose wrote: |
I'm neither pro nor anti sysd, I don't care about it at all, just don't want it forced upon my system(s) even in a round-a-bout way. |
This. I don't care about systemd; I just do not want to use it. |
I labeled myself as "anti-systemd", but really my sentiment is the same as yours. Your next statement hits the point.
| RazielFMX wrote: |
My issue with systemd (barring technical reasons, which would not matter except for this social fact) is the fact that it is being forced upon system after system in violation of the spirit of choice that OSS has traditionally represented (at least from my perspective; I use Linux, Gentoo in particular, because I can choose exactly how my system operates). It would not matter how technically bad/awesome systemd is if I have an option to never use it.
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Unfortunately the people pushing systemd don't seem to have a live-and-let-live attitude. THAT is what makes me anti-systemd, otherwise I'd merely not use their software.
I saw another news article and realized why there is such a push to force Gentoo onto systemd - Chrome. Google Chrome is really a tweaked Gentoo. If you're out to control the entire Linux ecosystem, that means that you have to control Chrome, which means controlling Gentoo. Push Gentoo onto systemd and presumably Chrome will follow. Whether there's any chance of Android following Chrome is anyone's question.
BTW, about 2 or 3 years ago, I thought systemd was an interesting-sounding idea. I tried it on a few systems and found that it wouldn't readily bring either of the 2 systems I installed it on to a usable condition, even after a bit of hacking around. (I didn't have time for much hacking around, I'll admit.) So I went back to straight OpenRC and kept half an eye on it. Then last November's promotion turned my opinion (and stomach) and nothing has happened to undo that - until uselessd. The core non-Borg ideas still interest me, so at some point I may want to mess with uselessd.
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Naib
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| Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2014 4:59 pm Post subject: |
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There is no push from Google for gentoo use use Systemd. Google use portage as a build management system and portage facilitates using systemd, that is all that matters. This comes back to my points: Gentoo isn't Anti-SystemD, it is ProChoice.
If people want to use systemd and gentoo they can and many do. Those that don't there are other options.
I mean FFS... how many package managers are there for gentoo? 3: Portage, Paludis, Pkgcore (in principal, lagging a bit more)... What other distribution permits that? Gentoo's only real requirement is ebuilds & a PMS "compliant" package manager with a system profile with the base packages, a profile you can change
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depontius
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| Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2014 5:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Naib wrote: | There is no push from Google for gentoo use use Systemd. Google use portage as a build management system and portage facilitates using systemd, that is all that matters. This comes back to my points: Gentoo isn't Anti-SystemD, it is ProChoice.
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You mistook my direction. I suspect L.P. and company are pushing Gentoo toward systemd so that they can push Google toward it, as well. Obviously if Google wanted systemd or chose to use it at some point, it's in portage. But that's choice, and that appears to be one of those things L.P. & Co can't stand.
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Anon-E-moose
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| Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2014 5:10 pm Post subject: |
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| RazielFMX wrote: | | I believe (and maybe I'm wrong) that systemd is a bad solution looking for a problem. |
I tend to agree with this, on the whole.
If they had just stuck with it as a better or different init, then it would have been fine.
It certainly doesn't need all the stuff they are packing into it...well, unless you're trying to make a windows clone.
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steveL
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| Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2014 8:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Naib wrote: | | And people wonder why some of us want to keep well away from the Anti-sysD camp... I would rather be labelled Pro-Sysd (which incidentally isn't the case) then be associated with such vitriolic personalities |
Implicit in that statement, is that other "anti-sysd" people on these forums are just as "vitriolic." IOW, it seeks to attach to the revulsion we feel for such awful statements, to those other, unnamed, "anti-systemd" "vitriolic personalities", and as such I call FUD on it.
| Anon-E-moose wrote: | Lets just leave it that he doesn't really belong here as long as he's going to keep on the way he has been.
The death threats, personal attacks are horrid no matter who they come from and they need to stop. |
Precisely.
Don't conflate one asshat with everyone else whom he happens to agree with, in some other aspect.
Especially when you lurk in OTW and talk utter vitriol on a daily basis. |
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chaosesqueteam
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| Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2014 4:47 am Post subject: |
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| Anon-E-moose wrote: | | chaosesqueteam wrote: | | Linus more or less endorsed systemd in the debian conference video. I think it was posted here before. |
He did no such thing and obviously either you didn't watch it or you have a severe comprehension problem. |
Go watch it again. It was an endorsement, slightly muted, but an endorsement none the less.
Linus: " I r just a dumb user don't know nuffin but duh kernel u shud belief me" "I suez systemd on all mi computers and it all good, whatever duh distros page frrr me I use I don't mess cuz I don't know"
He's been bought.
I think it was said well here: http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=117454
| Quote: |
This got quickly buried into old news at slashdot if anyone's interested:
http://beta.slashdot.org/
Torvalds: No Opinion On Systemd
Soulskill posted 13 hours ago | from the linus-not-swearing-at-people dept.
Open Source 303
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An anonymous reader writes:Linux creator Linus Torvalds is well-known for his strong opinions on many technical things. But when it comes to systemd, the init system that has caused a fair degree of angst in the Linux world, Torvalds is neutral. "When it comes to systemd, you may expect me to have lots of colorful opinions, and I just don't," Torvalds says. "I don't personally mind systemd, and in fact my main desktop and laptop both run it." Torvalds added, "I think many of the 'original ideals' of UNIX are these days more of a mindset issue than necessarily reflecting reality of the situation. There's still value in understanding the traditional UNIX "do one thing and do it well" model where many workflows can be done as a pipeline of simple tools each adding their own value, but let's face it, it's not how complex systems really work, and it's not how major applications have been working or been designed for a long time. It's a useful simplification, and it's still true at some level, but I think it's also clear that it doesn't really describe most of reality."
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Although reportedly neutral, actions speak louder than words. As the grandpappy of Linux and a prominent public figure in the Linux world, Mr. Torvalds admitted use of systemd is as good as an endorsement. Within the next 3 years systemd will likely spread to all major active distributions like a virus. I usually walk the line when it comes to conspiracy theories but something's fishy when Linus Torvalds has no strong opinion. My spidey sense is tingling...
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steveL
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| Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2014 7:46 am Post subject: |
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@chaosesqueteam: you appear to have no social intelligence whatsoever.
You've simply ignored the many regulars who've been very much offended by your diatribes, and continued to bang on about what "somebody said on the internet".
Did you not even notice that your posts were deleted by the moderators the other day? Presumably you were warned then, yet you continue to behave shamelessly, as if you've done nothing wrong, and don't need to respond to us.
GROW UP. |
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229566
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 16 Aug 2010
Posts: 127
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| Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2014 11:27 am Post subject: |
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I've been saying this from the beginning, and this is basically it. The one and only reason why RedHat is pushing systemd and why they want to "unify" and containerize the Linux ecosystem so they can deploy anything, anywhere and not be "bogged down" by "petty" distro differences, philosophy wars and what not...
http://siliconangle.com/blog/2014/09/23/red-hat-we-want-to-be-undisputed-leader-in-the-cloud/
Next prediction: RedHat buys Rackspace.  |
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Roman_Gruber
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| Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2014 11:59 am Post subject: |
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I think this thing belongs to off the wall
nothing about gentoo linux in particular. |
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krinn
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| Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2014 3:23 pm Post subject: |
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I don't think we should push trashes in OTW, OTW is sure dirty, but not a bin. And got trash more than enough already : https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-p-7622318.html#7622318
Sad our mods couldn't move it to another forum, i'm sure the "General Discussion" part of the "Neanderthal guys (and of course proud of it)" forum would welcome it. |
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Roman_Gruber
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| Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2014 5:31 pm Post subject: |
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| steveL wrote: | | . You're just a debilian casualty . |
lolz |
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John R. Graham
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| Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2014 4:20 pm Post subject: |
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Opened for business after sanitization. Sorry for the delay, folks.
- John
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Anon-E-moose
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| Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2014 4:40 pm Post subject: |
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| John R. Graham wrote: | | Opened for business after sanitization. |
Mmmmm, smells minty fresh 
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happosai
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| Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 7:19 am Post subject: |
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| chaosesqueteam wrote: | | Anon-E-moose wrote: | | chaosesqueteam wrote: | | Linus more or less endorsed systemd in the debian conference video. I think it was posted here before. |
He did no such thing and obviously either you didn't watch it or you have a severe comprehension problem. |
Go watch it again. It was an endorsement, slightly muted, but an endorsement none the less.
Linus: " I r just a dumb user don't know nuffin but duh kernel u shud belief me" "I suez systemd on all mi computers and it all good, whatever duh distros page frrr me I use I don't mess cuz I don't know"
He's been bought.
I think it was said well here: http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=117454
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This is not actual an endorsement, more a "sigh not that topic again - can't we just settle this once and for all and just move on?"
If you closely look at Linus talking there and speaking about Systemd, he is not really stating, if he likes or dislikes Systemd at all. He is more arguing that "the init wars finally are over", meaning that most important distributions indeed now have settled on Systemd and that that ship has sailed now by a far mile and more. He for himself doesn't seem to be to convinced or whatever about it, he is not really defending it much, but also told "Well... the faster boots are for real. Right?" Also listen closely to his opinion about PID 1.
He doesn't really care about which init system a distro uses, though he also told, that the old Sys V Init had some problems, that's his simple message and as long as Systemd finally fixes its own bugs and does not relay this "bug fixing" any more to the kernel people, which caused Linus' rant about Systemd in April this year, Linus seems to be fine with it. If it really would have been a kind of topic he cares about, he would have gone ballistic into a full blown rant. He did not rant at all, so.
Linus stance there is clear: don't bug me with Systemd and use whatever you want, I'm just the kernel guy, nothing more, nothing less, so please just come to grip with reality and get used to it/over it. That's not actual endorsement, more like "uuuuh not that topic again, I am just making the kernel for god's sake, do whatever you want to do with it and, please please stop asking me silly questions about the init system you/your distro choose to use!" |
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creaker
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| Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 9:37 am Post subject: |
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Linus never was only "a kernel guy". He always has had his own clearly expressed opinion on what's going in user space. PulseAudio, Gnome3, KDE3 to KDE4 migration etc - all these non-kernel stuffs was severely criticized by Linus. He was never indifferent to the processes that going in user space.
And suddenly he became absolutely indifferent... I don't believe that systemd is more sane and healthy idea than PulseAudio or Gnome3 and should be taken out of criticize. But he doesn't criticize it...
I read that interview 6 or 7 times last week. And can't believe it was Linus. It is some other, fake Linus.
This interview smells like shit a mile away. |
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happosai
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| Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 9:48 am Post subject: |
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| creaker wrote: | Linus never was only "a kernel guy". He always has had his own clearly expressed opinion on what's going in user space. PulseAudio, Gnome3, KDE3 to KDE4 migration etc - all these non-kernel stuffs was severely criticized by Linus. He was never indifferent to the processes that going in user space.
And suddenly he became absolutely indifferent... I don't believe that systemd is more sane and healthy idea than PulseAudio or Gnome3 and should be taken out of criticize. But he doesn't criticize it...
I read that interview 6 or 7 times last week. And can't believe it was Linus. It is some other, fake Linus.
This interview smells like shit a mile away. |
Just because sometimes he expresses his personal opinion about some kind of userland software that doesn't change that fact. You are clearly misinterpreting Linus' answer to the questions about Systemd at Debconf 14 this year in a way it fits your personal views/belief. That's fine, but not what he really said.
And what he really said you can look at it on Youtube, again, is to fully quote him: "The init wars are over." This, and "well... the faster boots are real, right?"
He clearly doesn't care at all about which init system your distro uses and he simply doesn't want to be bugged anytime longer about it. |
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Anon-E-moose
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| Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 10:16 am Post subject: |
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| happosai wrote: | | And what he really said you can look at it on Youtube, again, is to fully quote him: "The init wars are over." This, and "well... the faster boots are real, right?" |
People need to keep in mind that he was being asked this question at a debian event and he responded in that vein.
The question was never put about linux in general, nor did he respond in a linux general way, he responded about debian.
If people want to feel that Linus visited their house and personally stuck a shiv in their back, so be it.
Doesn't make it real. And quite frankly those who keep on in this vein seem to be losing touch with reality, IMO.
Get on with your life, decide whether you personally will use sysd or not and work toward that end.
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creaker
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| Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 10:46 am Post subject: |
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| happosai wrote: | | You are clearly misinterpreting Linus' answer to the questions about Systemd at Debconf 14 this year in a way it fits your personal views/belief. That's fine, but not what he really said. |
I do not interpret his words in any way. Moreover, it doesn't matter what he said at all.
I would accept it if he had said: "What a bullshit this systemd is?"
I even would accept it if he had said: "Hey, systemd is the best piece of software I've seen ever! Lets go with it! Its cool!"
But I don't accept such an indifference.
I just feel some false here.
Muddy and smelly story. |
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steveL
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| Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 6:57 pm Post subject: |
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I don't think we should get into what Torvalds said or didn't say.
I agree with happosai that the guy more than likely just wants to be left out of it, and what he really cares about is the kernel providing its ABI to userspace. As a kernel guy, his emphasis is on rightly on that, and from that perspective userspace is allowed to do crazy things: the kernel still has to cope.
We don't want him to focus on userland, imo: we want him to keep on nurturing the kernel. |
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happosai
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| Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 7:09 pm Post subject: |
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He more or less said this:
"I don't think PID 1 is that especial, and I do think that Systemd does a lot of things right. The problem I got with Systemd, literally before Systemd got started this must have been I'd like to say five years ago but that's a number completely made up Lennart was giving a talk about UUIDs to the kernel people at the kernel summit and we laughed him out of the room, UUIDs are crazy shit, they are up there with XML - bad ideas and exposing them as something really cool and clever was I felt just stupid and I was not the only one.
At the same time there is not question that the UNIX init system is not wonderful and it wasn't being very actively maintained and Systemd gives a lot of features that you really couldn't get any other way the bootup speedups are real right and its not saying that you couldn't get the same things with non Systemd but Systemd stepped up and did it, right.
So I think the fighting mostly is over, the lack of portability is sad, the thing that I absolutely hate is that the bug reports have been basically ignored in some cases and I don't like that, but is there really much discussion left? Maybe, I thought Debian already basically decided to go with Systemd, but apparently I may have heared just one side of the story.
I ain't realised people expected me to hate Systemd, I don't hate it, really, I mean it's somewhat interesting but it has quirks, but what has not, right."
So you should just get over it that he doesn't really care about if a distro uses it or not. |
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