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| Do you want systemd as default on Gentoo? |
| I <3 systemd!! I want Gentoo to switch!! |
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12% |
[ 26 ] |
| Get that horse-crap away from Gentoo as far as possible! |
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87% |
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| Total Votes : 212 |
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Yamakuzure
Advocate
Joined: 21 Jun 2006
Posts: 2283
Location: Adendorf, Germany
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 Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 8:36 am Post subject: |
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| szatox wrote: | I boot my system roughtly once per month and suspend it every night.
(...)
Even if systemd is faster, it's irrelevant. |
Exactly my point, for ages. I suspend/wakeup my laptop 5-6 times a day (traveling to work and back home) with each needing 2-3 seconds to suspend and 1 second to wakeup. No init system will ever beat that.  | szatox wrote: | | The right one is "what makes systemd so much better it's worth a switch". |
Are you kidding me? You get, as one single example of many, binary logs that are just awesome, and are automatically corrupted (NOTABUG!) by the programs that write them for free! 
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chaosesqueteam
n00b
Joined: 11 Sep 2014
Posts: 31
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| Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 8:44 am Post subject: |
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Reason does not sway the systemd acolytes, nor does it sway the Linux distros. The systemd enforcers analyse the structure of a Linux distro, discover it's true governing body (debian was set up as a direct democracy, the systemd proponents don't take things as stated however) regardless of the claims and propaganda the distro puts out, aquire supporters in key positions, and then they make the conversion happen.*
They are subversive. They have a goal and whomever or whatever needs to be pushed aside gets removed as an obstacle.
Much like this ISIS we hear about: they believe in themselves, we and our arguments are nothing to them. We are no-accounts. They are superior and right.
We can only fight them. One way or another.
*opponents are removed from the distro before hand for being anti-american in various ways: being unfriendly to women, gays, not being obedient, having the wrong beliefs. The *-women groups took over as gatekeepers some years ago once Linux came on the radar of the intel agencies, to mirror the rest of American and European society. Disgusting.( To disempower the independent rebellious males: an enemy of the state) |
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chaosesqueteam
n00b
Joined: 11 Sep 2014
Posts: 31
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| Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 8:55 am Post subject: |
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| Yamakuzure wrote: | | szatox wrote: | I boot my system roughtly once per month and suspend it every night.
(...)
Even if systemd is faster, it's irrelevant. |
Exactly my point, for ages. I suspend/wakeup my laptop 5-6 times a day (traveling to work and back home) with each needing 2-3 seconds to suspend and 1 second to wakeup. No init system will ever beat that. | szatox wrote: | | The right one is "what makes systemd so much better it's worth a switch". |
Are you kidding me? You get, as one single example of many, binary logs that are just awesome, and are automatically corrupted (NOTABUG!) by the programs that write them for free! |
Doesn't matter. We mere worthless users (who may be programmers too) are being forced to use systemd because the high and mighty "distro devs" (read: packagers, not even programmers) decided thus.
Or so that's what we're told. Actually in all cases it was a handful of people who decided (in the debian "democracy" it was four people who decided, in bad faith, with no general resolution, on a committee made only to solve technical bugs between conflicting packages)) and even the oh so high and mighty"distro developers" (packagers, ie people who deal with file structures, make, and compression utilities, maybe a script for the really elite) didn't even get any say. So much for the blatant lie of democracy in that distro.
Notice how the systemd enforcers (especially the debian ones) talk of governance etc etc. sounds like the state department, or an lgbt or feminist group trying to push change on ancient cultures (more state department), not computer enthusiasts. |
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chaosesqueteam
n00b
Joined: 11 Sep 2014
Posts: 31
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| Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 9:06 am Post subject: |
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This fictional girl made of lines says it best:
https://i.4cdn.org/g/1410852207891.jpg
We shouldn't have to just eat it. We should refuse. When we are assaulted with it we should counter attack and make them feel what we feel at the very least, preferably worse. |
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steveL
Watchman
Joined: 13 Sep 2006
Posts: 5153
Location: The Peanut Gallery
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| Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 12:46 pm Post subject: |
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| chaosesqueteam wrote: | | Outside of the kernel he's happy with whatever is shoveled down his mouth and we should be too.we don't get the bags of money down our throats though. |
| Ant P. wrote: | Or maybe he's not interested in dumbass politics and likes to get actual work done.
But let's put your political grandstanding to the side for a moment and get back to the subject matter — what code have you written in the field of init systems? Code is the only currency that matters here, after all. |
IDK this: | Ant P. wrote: | | one of the most famous developers in the world, who wrote his own kernel, is not a power user nor interested in the inner workings of the OS. How important does that make your own opinion in comparison? |
reads a lot like "political grandstanding" to me; it's not based on any technical nor social reasoning, purely on posturing and assumed expertise by association.
So answer your own question, since you're so expert: what code have you written in the field of init systems?
Is that truly the only criterion for having an opinion we might value? |
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Yamakuzure
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Joined: 21 Jun 2006
Posts: 2283
Location: Adendorf, Germany
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| Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 12:51 pm Post subject: |
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Thank you for your feedback. Please pull a number
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Important German:- "Aha" - German reaction to pretend that you are really interested while giving no f*ck.
- "Tja" - German reaction to the apocalypse, nuclear war, an alien invasion or no bread in the house.
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steveL
Watchman
Joined: 13 Sep 2006
Posts: 5153
Location: The Peanut Gallery
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| Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 12:52 pm Post subject: |
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| chaosesqueteam wrote: | Doesn't matter. We mere worthless users (who may be programmers too) are being forced to use systemd because the high and mighty "distro devs" (read: packagers, not even programmers) decided thus.
Or so that's what we're told. Actually in all cases it was a handful of people who decided (in the debian "democracy" it was four people who decided, in bad faith, with no general resolution, on a committee made only to solve technical bugs between conflicting packages)) and even the oh so high and mighty"distro developers" (packagers, ie people who deal with file structures, make, and compression utilities, maybe a script for the really elite) didn't even get any say. So much for the blatant lie of democracy in that distro.
Notice how the systemd enforcers (especially the debian ones) talk of governance etc etc. sounds like the state department, or an lgbt or feminist group trying to push change on ancient cultures (more state department), not computer enthusiasts. |
Hmm I agree with your point about "developers" who don't really understand programming, but you're starting to go overboard imo, with the lgbt and feminazi conspiracy theories. Not that the kleptocracy wouldn't make use of such tactics, just that those tactics are used across the board, so picking on those aspects and talking about "ancient cultures" as if that excuses anything, feels to me like exploring your prejudices more than the actual issue.
| Quote: | | We shouldn't have to just eat it. We should refuse. When we are assaulted with it we should counter attack and make them feel what we feel at the very least, preferably worse. |
I agree with your first point, but not your conclusion: you will only become an example of what you hate, should you go down that route.
Just ignore them, and let's get on with building the 21st-Century desktop which refuses to lock you or any other user, into a nightmare of proprietary dependency hell. |
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depontius
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Joined: 05 May 2004
Posts: 3509
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| Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 1:28 pm Post subject: |
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| steveL wrote: |
I agree with your first point, but not your conclusion: you will only become an example of what you hate, should you go down that route.
Just ignore them, and let's get on with building the 21st-Century desktop which refuses to lock you or any other user, into a nightmare of proprietary dependency hell. |
Bingo!
We're in the right place already, one of the two last bastions of GNU/Linux. (Slackware appears to be the other, and there may be other even smaller players, as well.) Let's focus on our own distributions, keep them viable, and keep making them better.
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Shamus397
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Joined: 03 Apr 2005
Posts: 218
Location: Ur-th
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| Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 1:58 pm Post subject: |
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Don't forget Funtoo, they aren't going down the SystemD path either. 
Also, if code really is the only currency that matters, then they are surely relevant as they are doing things like making the latest Gnome work without SystemD, and *not* crippled/broken as some devs (who haven't investigated anything) here like to imply.
A distro that is dedicated to things like that is ahead of the game IMO. |
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steveL
Watchman
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Posts: 5153
Location: The Peanut Gallery
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| Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 3:07 pm Post subject: |
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| depontius wrote: | | Let's focus on our own distributions, keep them viable, and keep making them better. |
Exactly: I agree with your approach, just not ceding any sort of design ground to such known-broken ideas.
| Shamus397 wrote: | Don't forget Funtoo, they aren't going down the SystemD path either. :)
Also, if code really is the only currency that matters, then they are surely relevant as they are doing things like making the latest Gnome work without SystemD, and *not* crippled/broken as some devs (who haven't investigated anything) here like to imply. |
Hmm it'd be good to have that available as an overlay for Gentoo users who want Gnome without the borkage; doesn't apply to me, as I'm happy with KDE, but would to others, no doubt. I imagine solutions to underlying dependency idiocy would be applicable to both, however.
edit: to answer the question and have a laugh ;-) (Yes I'm aware we're being self-referential..) |
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depontius
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Joined: 05 May 2004
Posts: 3509
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| Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 3:51 pm Post subject: |
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| steveL wrote: | | depontius wrote: | | Let's focus on our own distributions, keep them viable, and keep making them better. |
Exactly: I agree with your approach, just not ceding any sort of design ground to such known-broken ideas. |
I would make a slight modifier to that, in that L.P. and company are busily "work with upstreams to make them work better or only with systemd". We will need shims like OpenBSD is doing, simply so we don't lose our userspace. That doesn't mean we need their design principles also, just minimal interoperation.
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steveL
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| Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 12:02 pm Post subject: |
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| depontius wrote: | | steveL wrote: | | I agree with your approach, just not ceding any sort of design ground to such known-broken ideas. |
I would make a slight modifier to that, in that L.P. and company are busily "work with upstreams to make them work better or only with systemd". We will need shims like OpenBSD is doing, simply so we don't lose our userspace. That doesn't mean we need their design principles also, just minimal interoperation. |
Not imo, though others may agree with you. For instance, anyone using logind on the desktop is simply doing it wrong, afaic. |
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saellaven
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Joined: 23 Jul 2006
Posts: 646
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| Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 2:13 pm Post subject: |
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| depontius wrote: | | steveL wrote: | | depontius wrote: | | Let's focus on our own distributions, keep them viable, and keep making them better. |
Exactly: I agree with your approach, just not ceding any sort of design ground to such known-broken ideas. |
I would make a slight modifier to that, in that L.P. and company are busily "work with upstreams to make them work better or only with systemd". We will need shims like OpenBSD is doing, simply so we don't lose our userspace. That doesn't mean we need their design principles also, just minimal interoperation. |
Which means you will always be playing catchup, as systemd is anything but feature complete or stable. You never know what is going happen from version to version and LP is on the record regarding not wanting to play nice with people using components of systemd (like stating he wants to intentionally break non-systemd udev compatibility).
Better to fight for non-systemd interface options... for all the progress WINE has made in some areas, it still won't run QuickBooks or lots of other programs. What you're effectively saying is that turning the entire Linux ecosystem into something like WINE is good enough for you. |
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depontius
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Posts: 3509
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| Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 2:47 pm Post subject: |
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| saellaven wrote: | | depontius wrote: | | steveL wrote: | | depontius wrote: | | Let's focus on our own distributions, keep them viable, and keep making them better. |
Exactly: I agree with your approach, just not ceding any sort of design ground to such known-broken ideas. |
I would make a slight modifier to that, in that L.P. and company are busily "work with upstreams to make them work better or only with systemd". We will need shims like OpenBSD is doing, simply so we don't lose our userspace. That doesn't mean we need their design principles also, just minimal interoperation. |
Which means you will always be playing catchup, as systemd is anything but feature complete or stable. You never know what is going happen from version to version and LP is on the record regarding not wanting to play nice with people using components of systemd (like stating he wants to intentionally break non-systemd udev compatibility).
Better to fight for non-systemd interface options... for all the progress WINE has made in some areas, it still won't run QuickBooks or lots of other programs. What you're effectively saying is that turning the entire Linux ecosystem into something like WINE is good enough for you. |
That's back to the "try for native games where possible, use WINE where you can't," approach, which is what we've been doing all along. I won't argue with what you're saying, I also know that sometimes fighting for a non-systemd interface probably isn't going to work.
Also, now that systemd has "won", once RHEL7 gets out there, it's going to have to stabilize. RHEL7 with a non-stable systemd interface will be RedHat's Vista or 8, instead of their XP or 7. The other lesson to learn from Microsoft is that sometimes your install base is your enemy instead of your friend. That's what happened with both Vista and 8. Maybe systemd will help RedHat make inroads on desktops, but if they're not careful they're going to have serious problems getting their RHEL6 server base to upgrade to RHEL7.
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depontius
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| Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 4:05 pm Post subject: |
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New one, reading LWN.net a week behind...
lwn.net/Articles/611226/
" Interestingly, this patch caused some systems to fail to boot. A number of storage-system drivers require kernel threads to complete the process of probing for storage arrays. This probing process can involve a fair amount of work, to the point that it can take a minute or so to run. But it seems that systemd-udev does not have unlimited patience; it starts a 30-second timer (reduced from three minutes last year) when loading a device module, and kills the loading process (with SIGKILL) should that timer expire. So the process trying to probe the storage array is killed, the array assembly fails, and the system does not boot. Prior to Tetsuo's change, the signal would have been ignored during the probing process; afterward, it became fatal. Other types of drivers, such as those that must go through a lengthy firmware-downloading exercise, can also be affected by this problem.
The resulting discussions were spread out across multiple lists and bug trackers and thus were somewhat hard to follow. Kernel developers seemed to be generally of the opinion that a hard-coded 30-second timeout in systemd-udev is not a good idea, and that the problem should be fixed there. The systemd developers believe that any module taking more than 30 seconds to load is simply buggy and should be fixed. Tetsuo suggested that kthread_create() could delay its exit for ten seconds on SIGKILL if that signal originates anywhere other than the OOM killer. None of these ideas have found a consensus or led to a solution to the problem. "
The entire article is interesting, and at least this time isn't slam-dunk-stupid like some of the similar altercations have been. There is a real and decent attempt to make things work well from both sides.
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saellaven
l33t
Joined: 23 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 4:06 pm Post subject: |
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| depontius wrote: |
That's back to the "try for native games where possible, use WINE where you can't," approach, which is what we've been doing all along. I won't argue with what you're saying, I also know that sometimes fighting for a non-systemd interface probably isn't going to work. |
and we had devs like Blizzard more or less write to WINE rather than make a native version... Some did it well and it was as functional as a native game, others have done it poorly.
What you're arguing for, is to allow stuff that was already native to the system, to be ported to systemd (ala WINE) instead, and then accept whatever compatibility issues crop up by trying to shim things as par for the course. That might be good enough for you, but it's not good enough for me. Why even bother with the shims in the first place if you're just going to lay down and accept whatever is forced on you?
| depontius wrote: |
Also, now that systemd has "won", once RHEL7 gets out there, it's going to have to stabilize. RHEL7 with a non-stable systemd interface will be RedHat's Vista or 8, instead of their XP or 7. The other lesson to learn from Microsoft is that sometimes your install base is your enemy instead of your friend. That's what happened with both Vista and 8. Maybe systemd will help RedHat make inroads on desktops, but if they're not careful they're going to have serious problems getting their RHEL6 server base to upgrade to RHEL7. |
You keep saying that, but I don't believe it will stabilize at all... RHEL isn't a customizable, rolling release like Gentoo, it's a binary distribution where you get a ton of packages together. When an interface changes, whether you want to upgrade systemd, GNOME or some other systemd dependent component, one upgrade will simply pull in all of the other packages for compatibility.
Changing systemd's interface, for them, is no different than when glibc or gcc has changed ABIs/APIs in the past. They might try to minimize the frequency to save some headaches, but they are free to do it at will and are free to use their control upstream to leverage their distribution at the expense any other competing distributions using their toys. |
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tld
Veteran
Joined: 09 Dec 2003
Posts: 1816
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| Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 4:14 pm Post subject: |
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| depontius wrote: | | Also, now that systemd has "won", once RHEL7 gets out there, it's going to have to stabilize. RHEL7 with a non-stable systemd interface will be RedHat's Vista or 8, instead of their XP or 7. The other lesson to learn from Microsoft is that sometimes your install base is your enemy instead of your friend. That's what happened with both Vista and 8. Maybe systemd will help RedHat make inroads on desktops, but if they're not careful they're going to have serious problems getting their RHEL6 server base to upgrade to RHEL7. |
I still think there will be a significant number of server admins out there that will flat out refuse to have systemd on there servers regardless of whether it's supposedly "stable" or not. The smart ones sure will, because they know that having a massive attack surface in PID 1 with absolutely benefit at all on a server does nothing more than turn their Linux servers into Windows when it comes to security in general. Combine that with the aversion there's sure to be around other crap like that binary logging nightmare. Unless "stable" meant "there are no flaws or vulnerabilities in this massive bloated code base and never will be", they'd be crazy to do otherwise. And again...there's simply no upside to any of this on a server...let alone one you're paying big bucks for. |
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depontius
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| Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 4:27 pm Post subject: |
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| saellaven wrote: | | depontius wrote: |
Also, now that systemd has "won", once RHEL7 gets out there, it's going to have to stabilize. RHEL7 with a non-stable systemd interface will be RedHat's Vista or 8, instead of their XP or 7. The other lesson to learn from Microsoft is that sometimes your install base is your enemy instead of your friend. That's what happened with both Vista and 8. Maybe systemd will help RedHat make inroads on desktops, but if they're not careful they're going to have serious problems getting their RHEL6 server base to upgrade to RHEL7. |
You keep saying that, but I don't believe it will stabilize at all... RHEL isn't a customizable, rolling release like Gentoo, it's a binary distribution where you get a ton of packages together. When an interface changes, whether you want to upgrade systemd, GNOME or some other systemd dependent component, one upgrade will simply pull in all of the other packages for compatibility.
Changing systemd's interface, for them, is no different than when glibc or gcc has changed ABIs/APIs in the past. They might try to minimize the frequency to save some headaches, but they are free to do it at will and are free to use their control upstream to leverage their distribution at the expense any other competing distributions using their toys. |
It's not RedHat's own stuff that will be the reason for keeping systemd stable, it's the aftermarket. I seriously doubt that there is any such thing as a "Pure RedHat server room". There will be RedHat plus Puppet or some other management system, perhaps home-grown. RedHat will probably get away with switching some server rooms to systemd, but only once. After that if systemd isn't sufficiently stable to keep server management systems running smoothly, it'll be out the door, perhaps in favor of BSD.
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saellaven
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| Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 5:56 pm Post subject: |
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| depontius wrote: |
It's not RedHat's own stuff that will be the reason for keeping systemd stable, it's the aftermarket. I seriously doubt that there is any such thing as a "Pure RedHat server room". There will be RedHat plus Puppet or some other management system, perhaps home-grown. RedHat will probably get away with switching some server rooms to systemd, but only once. After that if systemd isn't sufficiently stable to keep server management systems running smoothly, it'll be out the door, perhaps in favor of BSD. |
That only matters if the aftermarket adopts systemd dependencies themselves...
Most of the things systemd adds were never really needed by anyone in the first place, they exist to leverage RedHat's upstream power into increasing systemd adoption, like with logind and GNOME, which is ultimately what flipped Debian and others (including the GNOME devoted Gentoo users) into adopting systemd.
Basically, RH can piss in the pond all it wants and not affect the third party commercial/enterprise developers, so long as those programs depend on the stable foundations of our ecosystem, like the C standard library. LP and friends may want to force themselves into a new layer between the userspace and kernel, but only a fool would bet a billion dollar project on that layer, particularly given the total lack of stability in its history. Honestly, RH doesn't really care if enterprise developers don't adopt systemd, as they aren't going to be able to control those third parties, though I'm sure they'll be glad to help any of the enterprise devs who DO adopt systemd as systemd changes... it's all about wresting control over the general open source movement, leaving RH not just as the dominant party as it has pretty much always been, but the sole party. LP and friends have spelled it out directly when they said that they want to unify all the distributions into one thing, their thing. |
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Anon-E-moose
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| Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 6:19 pm Post subject: |
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| depontius wrote: | New one, reading LWN.net a week behind...
lwn.net/Articles/611226/... |
Interesting
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Ottre
Tux's lil' helper
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| Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 6:46 pm Post subject: |
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| depontius wrote: | | [snip] once RHEL7 gets out there [snip] |
depontius, why do you keep saying this? RHEL7 shipped in June, most RH customers have upgraded by now. |
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Anon-E-moose
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| Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 6:51 pm Post subject: |
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| saellaven wrote: | | They might try to minimize the frequency to save some headaches, but they are free to do it at will and are free to use their control upstream to leverage their distribution at the expense any other competing distributions using their toys. |
It would be nice to see them do that, then there's a good chance that those distros that aren't based on RH will rethink standing behind systemd.
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depontius
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| Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 6:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Ottre wrote: | | depontius wrote: | | [snip] once RHEL7 gets out there [snip] |
depontius, why do you keep saying this? RHEL7 shipped in June, most RH customers have upgraded by now. |
Because where I work they just started moving a server farm to RHEL6.4, and there are still a lot of systems at RHEL5.6. One might say it's my employer, but the vendors producing the CAD tools we use only started supporting RHEL6 in the past one to two years. There are tools that only got off of RHEL4 in the past one to two years. Industrial settings are stabilized to the point of being almost fossilized.
Even if RedHat wanted to act like Microsoft used to (and still does?) they aren't sufficiently entrenched to get away with it. The switch to systemd was made relatively quickly, and it isn't horribly entrenched either. Especially if OpenBSDs tools come to fruition, which is necessary for them to keep access to a viable userspace, there will always be a migration path away from systemd. This isn't cut-and-dried-over, by any means. It may well never be reversible, hopefully. While they're busy denying Unix culture, it's baked in pretty hard and will take a long time to remove, if that's even possible.
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saellaven
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| Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 7:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Anon-E-moose wrote: | | saellaven wrote: | | They might try to minimize the frequency to save some headaches, but they are free to do it at will and are free to use their control upstream to leverage their distribution at the expense any other competing distributions using their toys. |
It would be nice to see them do that, then there's a good chance that those distros that aren't based on RH will rethink standing behind systemd. |
Give it about another year... by that point, Debian, Ubuntu and friends will be far enough down the systemd path that they will have a hard time reverting. At that point, it'll be down to Gentoo*, Slackware and a handful of Linux distros to compete with, as well as the BSDs, assuming FreeBSD and friends don't start spinning their wheels and chasing ghosts in an effort to keep shims working for the sake of cementing systemd's dominance across the *nix spectrum.
* then again, with the current Council and the recent pro-systemd (in the sense of harming Gentoo technically for the sake of systemd's artificial, arbitrary self-imposed limitations) history shown by most of the people there, I could still see Gentoo shooting themselves in the foot |
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NeddySeagoon
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| Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 7:17 pm Post subject: |
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saellaven,
A long time ago before systemd, there was udev ... before udev was devfs and before devfs there was nothing.
The nothing still works. To know how to configure it, you need some old documentation or a long memory.
I need to update that link.
_________________
Regards,
NeddySeagoon
Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
those that have never had a hard drive fail. |
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