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| Do you want systemd as default on Gentoo? |
| I <3 systemd!! I want Gentoo to switch!! |
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12% |
[ 26 ] |
| Get that horse-crap away from Gentoo as far as possible! |
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87% |
[ 186 ] |
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| Total Votes : 212 |
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Ant P.
Watchman
Joined: 18 Apr 2009
Posts: 6920
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 Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2014 4:11 pm Post subject: |
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| chaosesqueteam wrote: | | Sedoina wrote: | I am not so deep in that systemd / openrc thing like you guys since i am new to gentoo, but tbh i dont understand this hate.
Systemd works great with my Gnome under Gentoo, as great as KDE did without it. I for myself like systemd more than openrc, since i had far less problems with it ... but everyone should use what he / she likes.
The Fact that everyone should use what he / she likes implies, also implies that you dont have to care what others are using. You like Systemd ? use it, if not, then not. If too much switch on one side there is probably a Reason for it
Just my Opinion ... |
No offense but...
You are what we used to call a (l)user in the pre 2005 days. As long as it "works" you are happy. You do not care about implementation details nor controling what occurs on your machine. You are a low information voter equivelant in the nix world. |
Speaking as someone who actually was here back then (with the stage1-install battle scars to prove it), I can't recall anyone around here being enough of an arsehole to brand other people as lusers during that era.
You're what we used to call a ricer. You're similarly clueless as to how your system works, but you pretend you know what you're talking about and that it gives you a position above others who don't, which makes you actively damaging to others who might believe you. |
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Anon-E-moose
Watchman
Joined: 23 May 2008
Posts: 6097
Location: Dallas area
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| Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2014 4:18 pm Post subject: |
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| depontius wrote: | | where "Potterings OS" would correctly be taken as an insult. |
It's a dessert topping...it's a floor wax 
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PRIME x570-pro, 3700x, 6.1 zen kernel
gcc 13, profile 17.0 (custom bare multilib), openrc, wayland |
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10w.st
n00b
Joined: 03 Jul 2014
Posts: 12
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| Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2014 6:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Ant P. wrote: | | I can't recall anyone around here being enough of an arsehole to brand other people as lusers during that era. |
In the 90s, it was a name for those people on irc who just went there to chat.
Ones who never wrote any scripts and who weren't interested in ircd internals were called lusers.
I don't think it was meant as an insult back then, it was just a common name for majority of the userbase.
Maybe it's cultural difference or people just had much thicker skin in the past, but we used to call server ops lusers with no consequence whatsoever.
Though I'm fairly sure that calling one of them an arsehole would get you klined. |
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depontius
Advocate
Joined: 05 May 2004
Posts: 3509
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| Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2014 6:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Anon-E-moose wrote: | | depontius wrote: | | where "Potterings OS" would correctly be taken as an insult. |
It's a dessert topping...it's a floor wax |
I used to consider emacs a cross between a text editor, a debugger, a mail reader, and a breakfast cereal.
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.sigs waste space and bandwidth |
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229566
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 16 Aug 2010
Posts: 127
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| Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2014 6:35 pm Post subject: |
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This was just mentioned on the Linux Action Show, if anyone is interested:
http://systemdsurvey.com/ |
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depontius
Advocate
Joined: 05 May 2004
Posts: 3509
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| Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2014 7:24 pm Post subject: |
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Just took it, so when do we get to see the results? At least Genoo polls show you the results as soon as you take it.
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.sigs waste space and bandwidth |
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tonkazoid
n00b
Joined: 14 Aug 2014
Posts: 10
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szatox
Advocate
Joined: 27 Aug 2013
Posts: 3131
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| Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2014 7:42 pm Post subject: |
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I like this survey,
| Quote: | In a four way faceoff, who would win?
(This is just for fun and humor)
Linus Torvalds
Richard Stallman
Lennart Poettering
Captain Jean-Luc Picard |
looks like an IQ test
Not nearly close to being as annoying as captcha |
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chaosesqueteam
n00b
Joined: 11 Sep 2014
Posts: 31
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| Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2014 11:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Ant P. wrote: | | chaosesqueteam wrote: | | Sedoina wrote: | I am not so deep in that systemd / openrc thing like you guys since i am new to gentoo, but tbh i dont understand this hate.
Systemd works great with my Gnome under Gentoo, as great as KDE did without it. I for myself like systemd more than openrc, since i had far less problems with it ... but everyone should use what he / she likes.
The Fact that everyone should use what he / she likes implies, also implies that you dont have to care what others are using. You like Systemd ? use it, if not, then not. If too much switch on one side there is probably a Reason for it
Just my Opinion ... |
No offense but...
You are what we used to call a (l)user in the pre 2005 days. As long as it "works" you are happy. You do not care about implementation details nor controling what occurs on your machine. You are a low information voter equivelant in the nix world. |
Speaking as someone who actually was here back then (with the stage1-install battle scars to prove it), I can't recall anyone around here being enough of an arsehole to brand other people as lusers during that era.
You're what we used to call a ricer. You're similarly clueless as to how your system works, but you pretend you know what you're talking about and that it gives you a position above others who don't, which makes you actively damaging to others who might believe you. |
Nope. Been using and programming on Linux for 13 years or so. People like him used to be called (l)users. Maybe 2005 is too recent and the practice died out by then. |
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GFCCAE6xF
Apprentice
Joined: 06 Aug 2012
Posts: 295
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Naib
Watchman
Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 6051
Location: Removed by Neddy
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| Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 11:42 am Post subject: |
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| rorgoroth wrote: | http://www.itwire.com/business-it-news/open-source/65402-torvalds-says-he-has-no-strong-opinions-on-systemd
Time for you guys to go after Linus with your pitchforks now  |
I know that was said in jest, but there are some that could and all that will do is vindicate the stance that sysd proponents have "haters just want to hate" and provide justification to further silence any anti-sysd statement (see the deb and arch ml/forums).
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| Quote: | | Removed by Chiitoo |
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GFCCAE6xF
Apprentice
Joined: 06 Aug 2012
Posts: 295
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| Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 11:52 am Post subject: |
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| Naib wrote: | | rorgoroth wrote: | http://www.itwire.com/business-it-news/open-source/65402-torvalds-says-he-has-no-strong-opinions-on-systemd
Time for you guys to go after Linus with your pitchforks now |
I know that was said in jest, but there are some that could and all that will do is vindicate the stance that sysd proponents have "haters just want to hate" and provide justification to further silence any anti-sysd statement (see the deb and arch ml/forums). |
True, just to be clear I was trying to inject some humor rather than just shitposting a link and nothing more.
Not sure what you mean about deb and arch mailing lists, if you are talking about this chaosesqueteam nutjob there are good and valid reasons why he has been banned from debian mailing lists. |
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depontius
Advocate
Joined: 05 May 2004
Posts: 3509
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| Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 1:03 pm Post subject: |
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| rorgoroth wrote: | http://www.itwire.com/business-it-news/open-source/65402-torvalds-says-he-has-no-strong-opinions-on-systemd
Time for you guys to go after Linus with your pitchforks now |
It will be interesting to see how this progresses. The position is quite understandable, because Linus is primarily intersted in his kernel, and as long as it doesn't get in his way, doesn't care about userspace.
That doesn't change his stance on kernel issues at all. It will be interesting to see...
The first time he has to read his logs to see why he just had a kernel panic, and runs into "NOTABUG, just let the data/log rotate to regenerate."
The desires to quickly deprecate kernel features not needed for system.
The desires to optimize the kernel for systemd to the detriment of legecy usage.
I think we'll see that Linus is largely userspace-agnostic, not pro-systemd, and we'll see that he never changed his strong views on how the kernel should be run.
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.sigs waste space and bandwidth |
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chaosesqueteam
n00b
Joined: 11 Sep 2014
Posts: 31
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| Posted: Tue Sep 16, 2014 12:40 am Post subject: |
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| So basically Linus is not a system admin nor a power user nor interested in the least how the system is put together. Outside of the kernel he's happy with whatever is shoveled down his mouth and we should be too.we don't get the bags of money down our throats though. |
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depontius
Advocate
Joined: 05 May 2004
Posts: 3509
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| Posted: Tue Sep 16, 2014 1:28 am Post subject: |
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| chaosesqueteam wrote: | | So basically Linus is not a system admin nor a power user nor interested in the least how the system is put together. Outside of the kernel he's happy with whatever is shoveled down his mouth and we should be too.we don't get the bags of money down our throats though. |
I don't think it's quite like that - I think he's largely oblivious. He's THE kernel hacker, and as long as userspace doesn't get in the way of his kernel hacking, it's beneath his notice. Things don't get shoveled down his throat, they get put in front of him, and as long as they don't get in his way, he's happy to hack kernels.
As I said, wait until the day one of his kernels crashes, he tries to read the logs to figure out what went wrong, and runs into NOTABUG.
Nor is he going to help the systemd people shove anything down our throats, because that would be breaking userspace.
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.sigs waste space and bandwidth |
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miket
Guru
Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 488
Location: Gainesville, FL, USA
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| Posted: Tue Sep 16, 2014 4:23 am Post subject: |
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| depontius wrote: | | and as long as userspace doesn't get in the way of his kernel hacking |
Heh. Just wait until he has to build the kernel with systemdcc.
I said that to be funny, but before we chuckle too much it's apposite to think of this famous lecture by, you know, that guy who made Unix.
| Quote: | | The moral is obvious. You can't trust code that you did not totally create yourself. (Especially code from companies that employ people like me.) |
Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes. |
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229566
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 16 Aug 2010
Posts: 127
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| Posted: Tue Sep 16, 2014 10:31 am Post subject: |
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| miket wrote: | | Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes. |
 If only more people knew that phrase, where it came from and what it meant... this thread wouldn't have existed. |
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Ant P.
Watchman
Joined: 18 Apr 2009
Posts: 6920
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| Posted: Tue Sep 16, 2014 7:38 pm Post subject: |
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| chaosesqueteam wrote: | | So basically Linus is not a system admin nor a power user nor interested in the least how the system is put together. |
Let me quote back to you what you've just written: one of the most famous developers in the world, who wrote his own kernel, is not a power user nor interested in the inner workings of the OS. How important does that make your own opinion in comparison?
| chaosesqueteam wrote: | | Outside of the kernel he's happy with whatever is shoveled down his mouth and we should be too.we don't get the bags of money down our throats though. |
Or maybe he's not interested in dumbass politics and likes to get actual work done.
But let's put your political grandstanding to the side for a moment and get back to the subject matter — what code have you written in the field of init systems? Code is the only currency that matters here, after all. |
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NeddySeagoon
Administrator
Joined: 05 Jul 2003
Posts: 54216
Location: 56N 3W
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| Posted: Tue Sep 16, 2014 7:53 pm Post subject: |
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Ant P.,
Documentation is useful. Nobody will read your code to find out how to use it. Life is just too short.
_________________
Regards,
NeddySeagoon
Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
those that have never had a hard drive fail. |
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steveL
Watchman
Joined: 13 Sep 2006
Posts: 5153
Location: The Peanut Gallery
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| Posted: Tue Sep 16, 2014 10:35 pm Post subject: |
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Blimey, no wonder you guys want independence; brings to mind the potato famine, in terms of English "civilisation" and a "way of life" supposedly worth bombing innocents for. |
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ShanaXXII
Apprentice
Joined: 29 Jun 2014
Posts: 283
Location: Canada
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szatox
Advocate
Joined: 27 Aug 2013
Posts: 3131
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| Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 6:07 am Post subject: |
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I boot my system roughtly once per month and suspend it every night.
Boot process takes 40 seconds, resume from RAM less than 5. Not sure how much exacly, as my display takes longer than system.
So, if systemd reduced boot time to 0 I could save like 1 second every day.
Considering I smash power button and go away to take care of myself and come back 2-30 minutes later such a gain is simply not worth changing whatever init I have now to anything else. Even if systemd is faster, it's irrelevant.
This makes "What are the downsides of using systemd?" a poorly choosen question. The right one is "what makes systemd so much better it's worth a switch".
And it's going to be damn hard one, even if it wasn't bloatwere. |
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chaosesqueteam
n00b
Joined: 11 Sep 2014
Posts: 31
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| Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 6:28 am Post subject: |
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| Ant P. wrote: | | chaosesqueteam wrote: | | So basically Linus is not a system admin nor a power user nor interested in the least how the system is put together. |
Let me quote back to you what you've just written: one of the most famous developers in the world, who wrote his own kernel, is not a power user nor interested in the inner workings of the OS. How important does that make your own opinion in comparison?
| chaosesqueteam wrote: | | Outside of the kernel he's happy with whatever is shoveled down his mouth and we should be too.we don't get the bags of money down our throats though. |
Or maybe he's not interested in dumbass politics and likes to get actual work done.
But let's put your political grandstanding to the side for a moment and get back to the subject matter — what code have you written in the field of init systems? Code is the only currency that matters here, after all. |
What code has Linus written in the field of init systems? Code is the only currency that matters here after all.
Simplicity of operation, stability, and tradition are things of no account, after all.
I notice you tried to be careful and didn't simply ask "what code have you written"
The shocking thing about Linus' statement comes from the fact that he is or was a prolific kernel hacker in the past. That he has put caring about the system behind him. That he is no longer a power user and just does not care about what we care about. That Linux is to not be unix like any longer (during its rise, which I witnessed, the main bullet point was that Linux was a unix like OS). It is disgusting and sad.
We are betrayed.
On another note, I personally hate you systemd proponents. |
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chaosesqueteam
n00b
Joined: 11 Sep 2014
Posts: 31
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| Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 7:03 am Post subject: |
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| Systemd proponents treat our minds as worthless, or, if not that, then as their property. |
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Naib
Watchman
Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 6051
Location: Removed by Neddy
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| Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 7:45 am Post subject: |
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| chaosesqueteam wrote: | | Ant P. wrote: | | chaosesqueteam wrote: | | So basically Linus is not a system admin nor a power user nor interested in the least how the system is put together. |
Let me quote back to you what you've just written: one of the most famous developers in the world, who wrote his own kernel, is not a power user nor interested in the inner workings of the OS. How important does that make your own opinion in comparison?
| chaosesqueteam wrote: | | Outside of the kernel he's happy with whatever is shoveled down his mouth and we should be too.we don't get the bags of money down our throats though. |
Or maybe he's not interested in dumbass politics and likes to get actual work done.
But let's put your political grandstanding to the side for a moment and get back to the subject matter — what code have you written in the field of init systems? Code is the only currency that matters here, after all. |
What code has Linus written in the field of init systems? Code is the only currency that matters here after all.
Simplicity of operation, stability, and tradition are things of no account, after all.
I notice you tried to be careful and didn't simply ask "what code have you written"
The shocking thing about Linus' statement comes from the fact that he is or was a prolific kernel hacker in the past. That he has put caring about the system behind him. That he is no longer a power user and just does not care about what we care about. That Linux is to not be unix like any longer (during its rise, which I witnessed, the main bullet point was that Linux was a unix like OS). It is disgusting and sad.
We are betrayed.
On another note, I personally hate you systemd proponents. |
he is probably taking the diplomatic approach and staying out of it. He is very well known for making his stance very clear with regards to technical aspects -done a few times with sysd already.
Try not to rely on others to make your case 'see Linus doesn't like it' but instead provide reasons
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