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juniper
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 12:49 am    Post subject: States that raised minimum wage outperform others Reply with quote

raising the minimum helps?

Quote:
In a report on Friday, the 13 states that raised their minimum wages on Jan. 1 have added jobs at a faster pace than those that did not.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 1:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Economists who support a higher minimum say the figures are encouraging, though they acknowledge they don't establish a cause and effect. There are many possible reasons hiring might accelerate in a particular state.
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wswartzendruber
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 3:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Find me a high-population state that's doing as well as Texas, and then we'll talk.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 4:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Classic statistical bullshit. What's more likely is that states that were not sucking hind tit economically could afford to raise their minimum wage. Both may well be effects of some third cause. Or, states farther along in terms of economic recovery, where inflation is already taking a bite, needed to raise minimum wage in part because of the inflationary pressure.

Furthermore, even if there were solid statistical analysis backing this speculation (of which I see no evidence), the implication would be that the "social safety net" is making people too comfortable in unemployment, and they are voluntarily staying on the dole rather than taking minimum wage jobs. Why doesn't the article include that speculation as well?
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 10:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bones McCracker wrote:
Classic statistical bullshit. What's more likely is that states that were not sucking hind tit economically could afford to raise their minimum wage. Both may well be effects of some third cause. Or, states farther along in terms of economic recovery, where inflation is already taking a bite, needed to raise minimum wage in part because of the inflationary pressure.


no disagreement. all good speculation.

Quote:
Why doesn't the article include that speculation as well?


yup. that should be asked.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 1:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agreed about the statistics point...this doesn't establish cause-and-effect. It could be that the same factors that lead to greater economic prosperity lead to a political environment that favors raising the minimum wage.

I do think that on some pure, idealistic level I am uneasy with minimum wage laws; they are a form of price floor, a sort of economic meddling, and they can produce strange or undesired results...like outsourcing, investing in automation rather than employees, or finding ways around the laws through loopholes (like switching to using contractors, who may end up earning less than minimum wage).

But I'm also uncomfortable with how hard it is for some people to support themselves. So, as a society, I'd like us to solve this problem somehow. With a wage of $7.50 an hour, working 40 hours a week, 52 weeks a year, earns you about $15,600. A resourceful person with no financial burdens could live well off that, possibly even support a family, in some of the lowest cost-of-living rural areas, or if sharing a lot of resources. But people living in areas with higher or even more moderate costs of living, people living on their own, people struggling with other financial burdens...it's just not possible.

So I think there are some problems. I just would rather solve them by some other means.

My first proposal would be to eliminate all payroll taxation (social security+medicare+some state and local taxes), especially on low incomes, before I'd start considering minimum wage laws. It seems completely insane that in the US, we levy a 15% ish tax (counting both employee and employer's portions) on wages, salaries, and contracting income, and that this tax has no exemptions, deductions, or anything...everyone pays it in full. Completely nuts...why are we taxing people who aren't even earning enough to support themselves? In some areas, the local payroll taxes can be incredibly high...Philadelphia's wage tax is nearly 4%.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Price fixing doesn't work
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tylerwylie wrote:
Price fixing doesn't work


BK is right; cause and effect haven't been shown. But your cartoon seems to be making the claim that it really doesn't work. Not is that not shown in the article I posted, but we see the opposite effect.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 6:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How many will earn that minimum wage? That's key here.
People need enough to house and feed (Maslow's heirachy of needs) and if they can't even do that (and in the case of Walmart employees needing Walmart food vouchers to survive... Vicious cycle) you have a significant problem.

If say... 50% of the population are earning minimum then increasing the minimum will just drive up inflation and not solve the problem... It will make it worse
If it is say... 1% well, slave labour :)
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 9:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Perhaps, but what does "to house and feed" mean, precisely?

Should every individual be "entitled" to live alone? What's wrong with having roommates or living as part of a family? What's wrong with communal living? It has been pretty much the status quo for young, single people for decades to start out living with roommates, sharing expenses, in order to save money. So where are we to draw the line? A chicken in every pot is one thing, forcing people subsidize others' house/car/cellphone/internet/healthcare/education/retirement/vacation/happydrugs is another.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 9:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As I said...
Naib wrote:

People need enough to house and feed (Maslow's heirachy of needs) a


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow's_hierarchy_of_needs


And yes luxuries are way down on the priority on hte Hierarchy BUT when shit like this exists...
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/04/09/walmart-workers-food-stamps_n_5092262.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tag/walmart-food-stamps/
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 3:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
As I said...
Naib wrote:

People need enough to house and feed (Maslow's heirachy of needs) a


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow's_hierarchy_of_needs


And yes luxuries are way down on the priority on hte Hierarchy BUT when shit like this exists...
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/04/09/walmart-workers-food-stamps_n_5092262.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tag/walmart-food-stamps/

My first job was as a busboy as the International House of Pancakes, working the graveyard shift, 30 hours per week. Minimum wage, no benefits, etc. Just driving to work (15 miles) ate up a good chunk of what I'd earn. It was enough to pay for my car payment and insurance and to have a little spending money while I was going to college (which was otherwise paid for because I had worked hard enough in school to be granted a full ROTC scholarship and was willing to sign away four years of my post-college life to the Army). Could it have also paid for me to rent my own apartment, paid for all my food, clothing, and be forced to buy health insurance? Fuck no. So I pretty much wore the same clothes for four years and lived in a house with 14 other guys who pooled our money for food and housing (and gasoline and beer, often).

So, I suppose the question is, what's a person to do who can never elevate their own earning power above that level. How many such people are there, who can really, honestly, not do that (not "can't be arsed", but literally can't)? It's a small percentage. Those people are destined to be dependent upon others, be that being married to another worker, being on the dole, or whatever. Should they expect the dole to satisfy their needs as well as a good salary?
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bones McCracker wrote:
Perhaps, but what does "to house and feed" mean, precisely?

Should every individual be "entitled" to live alone? What's wrong with having roommates or living as part of a family? What's wrong with communal living? It has been pretty much the status quo for young, single people for decades to start out living with roommates, sharing expenses, in order to save money. So where are we to draw the line? A chicken in every pot is one thing, forcing people subsidize others' house/car/cellphone/internet/healthcare/education/retirement/vacation/happydrugs is another.


I think this is a really great point.

There are deep structural and cultural problems though in American society, that make it unrealistic for people to live in group living situations. For example, many communities have zoning laws that make it illegal to house more than a certain number of people in a house. So, for example, while you might have a 5 bedroom house, and you might be able to have 10 people living simply and minimally, and living there very comfortably, in many communities this would be illegal.

Another issue is a complete lack of availability of group housing. When I graduated college, I thought: "I loved living in a dorm; it doesn't make sense to live in a solo apartment-living situation." but when I started looking, I found that there just wasn't much like this on the market. The closest I've found are group houses that operate as cooperatives or just have some sort of informal structure. I love ideas like Co-housing, but there just isn't stuff like that on the market.

Living with family can be great. I've done it twice, temporarily, as a post-college adult. But a lot of people have situations at home that preclude their living with family. For example, I've known people who have been thrown out of the home because their parents disapprove of them being gay or lesbian, and then I know families where there is drug or alcohol abuse, or domestic violence, and I know people who have been abused at home by their parent(s) or step-parent, so living at home isn't a good option for them. So I think it is important to create environments where there are low-cost housing options available.

I'd rather solve problems like this though by simplifying government rather than creating more tax-and-spend. One place I'd like to start is to see people challenging, striking down, or repealing laws that prohibit high-density habitation in residential neighborhoods.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you think you are enlightened, try living with parents for two weeks.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 11:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cazort wrote:
Bones McCracker wrote:
Perhaps, but what does "to house and feed" mean, precisely?

Should every individual be "entitled" to live alone? What's wrong with having roommates or living as part of a family? What's wrong with communal living? It has been pretty much the status quo for young, single people for decades to start out living with roommates, sharing expenses, in order to save money. So where are we to draw the line? A chicken in every pot is one thing, forcing people subsidize others' house/car/cellphone/internet/healthcare/education/retirement/vacation/happydrugs is another.


I think this is a really great point.

There are deep structural and cultural problems though in American society, that make it unrealistic for people to live in group living situations. For example, many communities have zoning laws that make it illegal to house more than a certain number of people in a house. So, for example, while you might have a 5 bedroom house, and you might be able to have 10 people living simply and minimally, and living there very comfortably, in many communities this would be illegal.

Another issue is a complete lack of availability of group housing. When I graduated college, I thought: "I loved living in a dorm; it doesn't make sense to live in a solo apartment-living situation." but when I started looking, I found that there just wasn't much like this on the market. The closest I've found are group houses that operate as cooperatives or just have some sort of informal structure. I love ideas like Co-housing, but there just isn't stuff like that on the market.


in college, practically everyone lived 3 to an apartment or house. i lived in one of these states where it was illegal for 4+ unrelated females to live under the same roof (anti-brothel laws). the only girls i knew that ever had an issue with it were the ones whose family bought a place in suburbia (not the college ghetto) and still tried to have endless parties from thursday evening through sunday morning. vomit everywhere, panties lying around, trash all over the place, assholes parking in and/or blocking other peoples' driveways, noise and hordes of people 24-7... that law was one of many that they had thrown at them. otherwise, most people paid $300/mo for a room that shared a kitchen and living room with 2-3 others. you do what you need to do to survive.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 25, 2014 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My own feeling is that I like living in a place where people aren't homeless. For all it's faults, the social housing system is Britain is such that you see very little homelessness even in London. I find it a bit shocking going to other european capitals where you see a lot more of it.

On the other hand, it's a fucking racket. 25% of Londoners get some form of housing assistance. of course, the source of the problem is the govt (or the people, by voting in the govt). People need help with because there is such a huge housing shortage. Why? Developers can't build because of the strict planning laws.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 25, 2014 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't feel bad. More central planning and you'll have factories making left-footed shoes.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2014 3:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

:lol: :lol: :lol:
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