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Killing burglars in Britain. ALL LEGAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Butts McCokey
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 7:25 pm    Post subject: Killing burglars in Britain. ALL LEGAL!!!!!!!!!!!!! Reply with quote

Just so the Americans here should know: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMy2GZrZ5_s
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Naib
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

umm old news?
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If this is so, then why does it never happen?
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Butts McCokey
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 4:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bones McCracker wrote:
If this is so, then why does it never happen?
Because most houses have good security
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bones McCracker wrote:
If this is so, then why does it never happen?
because most robberies usually occur when ppl are out. Check stats on robberies and aggravated robberies - we split them
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pjp
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 11:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Killing burglars in Britain. ALL LEGAL!!!!!!!!!!!!! Reply with quote

Butts McCokey wrote:
Just so the Americans here should know: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMy2GZrZ5_s
If it is as accurately simple has he explains within the first 3 minutes, then it seems more "lenient" than what I'm familiar with in the US.
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Butts McCokey
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2014 1:06 pm    Post subject: Re: Killing burglars in Britain. ALL LEGAL!!!!!!!!!!!!! Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
Butts McCokey wrote:
Just so the Americans here should know: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMy2GZrZ5_s
If it is as accurately simple has he explains within the first 3 minutes, then it seems more "lenient" than what I'm familiar with in the US.
I thought it was interesting that you are not expected to make fine judgements in the heat of the moment which is good
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flysideways
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2014 3:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How do we reconcile this video with the stories of Tony Martin's plight?
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Naib
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2014 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

flysideways wrote:
How do we reconcile this video with the stories of Tony Martin's plight?
because the right to defend your property with deadly force was up until that case a gray matter open to ... Whatever side had the stronger barristers.
A couple of years later after the 99case the home office clarified the situation. It was actually posted on this forum... That's why I am surprised some here are confused

Why was this the case? Because in the uk the law was 'reasonable force' and as such prosecution solicitors would argue what was done was above and beyond reasonable force.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2014 3:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Killing burglars in Britain. ALL LEGAL!!!!!!!!!!!!! Reply with quote

Butts McCokey wrote:
I thought it was interesting that you are not expected to make fine judgements in the heat of the moment which is good
Makes perfect sense and is more than reasonable. The part I thought was most interesting was his description of the 100yr old case with the judge telling the person to kill the intruder, even though the intruder didn't know of the homeowner's presence. I believe that would not be acceptable under the few cases I'm familiar. A significant part of those cases was whether or not the homeowner was in danger. One case was even in Texas, where we from the US would expect lenient laws on the subject.
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flysideways
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2014 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In October last year, the justice secretary, Chris Grayling, said householders who react with force when confronted by burglars would get more legal protection by the bar being raised on what could be considered "proportionate" force.

More legal protection is a subjective statement. Show us the law that says that someone being uninvited on your property is a defense to prosecution if you use force. The claim is yours, the burden of proof is yours.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2014 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If anybody breaks into your home, all bets should be off.

Simple.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2014 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well they are not and that is why there isn't a some statement 'you can kill them'
Can you torture them and then kill them? Can you subject them to a cruel and unusual death?

Can you stab them or hit them or shoot them that results in their death? Again up to the courts. We have always had the right to defend our house
https://www.gov.uk/reasonable-force-against-intruders
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2014 8:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The point is this, I'm not going to debate the odds when (and it did almost happen a few weeks back) /if somebody breaks into my home.

I'll grab something heavy and mostly blunt and ask questions later. It would be better if I could avail myself of a firearm - tends to be a better leveller than relying AD&D style on a hand to hand die roll.
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flysideways
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2014 9:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you require the mercy of the Court, it is not a right but a privilege subject to the fiat of your rulers.
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pjp
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 5:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
Well they are not and that is why there isn't a some statement 'you can kill them'
Then the guy in coke's video is wrong and then so is the claim of the thread title.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 8:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
Naib wrote:
Well they are not and that is why there isn't a some statement 'you can kill them'
Then the guy in coke's video is wrong and then so is the claim of the thread title.

Because you watched as a yank 'why shouldn't I kill them' as oppose to as a Brit 'what if I kill them'
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flysideways
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib, that video clearly contradicts the CPS guidance.

Quote:
This only applies if you were acting in self-defence or to protect others in your home and the force you used was disproportionate – disproportionate force to protect property is still unlawful.


Advice to shoot someone in the back, unannounced, with no threat made or yet implied ... Good luck.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

flysideways wrote:
Naib, that video clearly contradicts the CPS guidance.

Quote:
This only applies if you were acting in self-defence or to protect others in your home and the force you used was disproportionate – disproportionate force to protect property is still unlawful.


Advice to shoot someone in the back, unannounced, with no threat made or yet implied ... Good luck.
I'm not the one backing the vid
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flysideways
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
flysideways wrote:
Naib, that video clearly contradicts the CPS guidance.

Quote:
This only applies if you were acting in self-defence or to protect others in your home and the force you used was disproportionate – disproportionate force to protect property is still unlawful.


Advice to shoot someone in the back, unannounced, with no threat made or yet implied ... Good luck.
I'm not the one backing the vid


Understood.
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Naib
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

flysideways wrote:
Naib wrote:
flysideways wrote:
Naib, that video clearly contradicts the CPS guidance.

Quote:
This only applies if you were acting in self-defence or to protect others in your home and the force you used was disproportionate – disproportionate force to protect property is still unlawful.


Advice to shoot someone in the back, unannounced, with no threat made or yet implied ... Good luck.
I'm not the one backing the vid


Understood.
you sure? the vid may not be 100% legally accurate (which in itself is dangerous) BUT to the average brit it does clarify things.
"Englishmans home is his castle" ... "until someone invades and I cannot do anything because if I touch him I go to prison".
THIS is what is constantly being portrayed in the media over a very, very, very long time and that is equally not 100% legally accurate. Brits have always been allowed to defend their property with force that could result in death BUT the legal system has resulted in a stack of cases providing citation for case law providing enough caselaw backing to complicate things... "your honour the victim did not deserve to be hit over the head 5 times, 4 was enough... there is no evidence to state he was going to rape the victims of the house [oh his past criminal activity showing that is what he does is not the point]".

At the end of the day it is the CPS that takes an individual to court and they were instructed a few years ago to clarify that reasonable force to defend your property can still legally include legal manslaughter ESPECIALLY since "reasonable force" is such a subjective term and there were enough high profile cases to bring enough doubt to the minds of the british public that they cannot do anything.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 10:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
pjp wrote:
Naib wrote:
Well they are not and that is why there isn't a some statement 'you can kill them'
Then the guy in coke's video is wrong and then so is the claim of the thread title.

Because you watched as a yank 'why shouldn't I kill them' as oppose to as a Brit 'what if I kill them'
The who is irrelevant to the outcome, which is the dead intruder at the judge's recommendation. Granted that was 100 years ago, but the current person is using that as demonstration of why it remains OK today.
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