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hasufell
Retired Dev
Joined: 29 Oct 2011
Posts: 429
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 Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2014 10:32 pm Post subject: |
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| yagami wrote: | | probably in technical terms, gentoo is missing what funtoo has, or so to be, the "fun" and innovation. but ... gentoo is still working well, at least on my pc's |
I don't see much innovation in funtoo, honestly. I see some serious innovation in exherbo, but that's still not a revolution and they are behind in terms of freshness of packages without any indication of rising popularity.
The only revolutionary thing I'v seen so far is NixOS and it's popularity is rising hard. |
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yagami
Apprentice
Joined: 12 May 2002
Posts: 269
Location: Leiria, Portugal
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| Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2014 10:53 pm Post subject: |
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Some innovations in funtoo were nice : git sync, metro, flaura.
nixos seems nice.
exherbo never looked much at it, because i didnt want to anger the Gentoo Gods !
There are alot of innovations in gentoo, but they are scattered and niche. This week I am running portage in sqlite backend. Last month i had all world compiled with Ofast and LTO  ( second try actually , tried it a year ago, more or less )
Seems , the advantage of being pure metadistro, also is a "disavantage". ( features seem scattered, not integrated, not known, not popular, seems sometimes only i or two other people in the planet are running Gentoo like me ). In my teenager geek days, i would love that, but now that i am old , not so much. |
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Anon-E-moose
Watchman
Joined: 23 May 2008
Posts: 6098
Location: Dallas area
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| Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2014 11:11 pm Post subject: |
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| yagami wrote: | | I know that although the conversation was good, it was all going to end in a s**t**d discuttion and insulting the s**t**d supporting devs. |
Wasn't trying to insult anyone, just stating what I see as facts.
And at that, I'll back out of this, as I'm basically running a bastardized gentoo at this point,
with the number of ebuilds that I've had to modify to make things work the way I want them to.
Later....
Edit to add: No, I'm not insulted, offended or put out, I should have kept my opinions to myself.
_________________
PRIME x570-pro, 3700x, 6.1 zen kernel
gcc 13, profile 17.0 (custom bare multilib), openrc, wayland |
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natrix
Guru
Joined: 23 Aug 2013
Posts: 556
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| Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2014 3:57 am Post subject: |
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Hello forum:
This is an answer to the original question.
I know people who feel fear for gentoo. For them these are some alternatives of the gentoo’s style:
* Archlinux.
* Linux From Scratch: but with a package manager, one that fits well is the “Slackware’s manager”.
* Linux Mint DEBIAN: but replacing “apt-get” for “apt-build”.
* Opensuse: but installing “tumbleweed”.
The distro is not important, the important is Linux... But gentoo is the best....  |
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Budoka
l33t
Joined: 03 Jun 2012
Posts: 777
Location: Tokyo, Japan
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 5:36 am Post subject: |
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| hasufell wrote: | | steveL wrote: | | hasufell wrote: | | Most of what happens in overlays never ends up in the tree, because no one knows and no one communicates. Even projects like science that do have a relatively strong userbase contributing to their official overlay... rarely import that stuff into the tree. |
I don't see that as an issue, even if I would prefer it if their work made it to tree. If someone is interested in such specialist work, then they can use the overlay, and join the IRC channel for help and collaboration. |
Then you don't seem to understand the issue about why decentralized packaging in gentoo is broken.
| steveL wrote: | | As for channels failing etc, Gentoo isn't a software house, and nor is the main product its own software, but rather bash scriptlets. It's hardly the same as the kernel, and there is much more scope for people to work in their own areas without needing to collaborate, since all they're doing is small bash scriptlets to wrap a build process. It's much more of an ecosystem than anything else. |
I'm not sure why you explain gentoo to me. I'm working on it every day.
The core of gentoo is still the package manager and the specification behind it, because that defines how the scriptlets look like and how they interact with each other and the package manager.
So, I still don't see your point, except that the analogy wasn't perfect.
| steveL wrote: | | It's funny I can remember a few threads like this over the years; one has to wonder why you can't have this discussion with your fellow developers, although the pack mentality is probably why. And ofc discussion isn't much use without action thereafter; usual pattern is someone says "wouldn't it be better if we ..", it gets discussed and pondered from all sorts of angles that have nothing to do with anything practical, no-one really argues; and nothing changes. |
Interesting. Why do you think I did not have this discussion with my fellow developers? Wild guess?
For the rest, I can't figure out how that differs much from what I said, except that you seem to weigh your points differently
| hasufell wrote: | | If you want you could say that gentoo is broken technically (I skipped that large part about portage, eclasses and other things), organizationally and socially. |
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hasufell,
I am following this thread with much interest. Lot's of good info in it and I would hate to see it go the way of some other threads, ie: The previous systemd thread that I unintentionally started, and get locked.
I only mention this because I haven't read anything that I thought was an intentional attack on you but your reply sounds like you thought so.
Anyway, thank you everyone for contributing. |
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steveL
Watchman
Joined: 13 Sep 2006
Posts: 5153
Location: The Peanut Gallery
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 6:44 am Post subject: |
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| hasufell wrote: | | steveL wrote: | | hasufell wrote: | | Most of what happens in overlays never ends up in the tree, because no one knows and no one communicates. Even projects like science that do have a relatively strong userbase contributing to their official overlay... rarely import that stuff into the tree. |
I don't see that as an issue, even if I would prefer it if their work made it to tree. If someone is interested in such specialist work, then they can use the overlay, and join the IRC channel for help and collaboration. |
Then you don't seem to understand the issue about why decentralized packaging in gentoo is broken. |
I don't agree that it is, obviously. And you haven't provided any further reasoning, simply an insult.
| Quote: | | steveL wrote: | | As for channels failing etc, Gentoo isn't a software house, and nor is the main product its own software, but rather bash scriptlets. It's hardly the same as the kernel, and there is much more scope for people to work in their own areas without needing to collaborate, since all they're doing is small bash scriptlets to wrap a build process. It's much more of an ecosystem than anything else. |
The core of gentoo is still the package manager and the specification behind it, because that defines how the scriptlets look like and how they interact with each other and the package manager.
So, I still don't see your point, except that the analogy wasn't perfect. |
Really, disingenousness? I always thought better of you than this.
Your point was about collaboration channels; people don't collaborate around the PMS, nor round a particular mangler: they collaborate on ebuilds. Which is why McCreesh still wants the portage tree, and still hangs round Gentoo like a bad smell. It turns out it's not quite so easy to walk away with your nose in the air.
So no, your analogy was not imperfect: it's broken. Your reasoning is flawed, so you can call that imperfect if you like.
| Quote: | | steveL wrote: | | It's funny I can remember a few threads like this over the years; one has to wonder why you can't have this discussion with your fellow developers, although the pack mentality is probably why. And ofc discussion isn't much use without action thereafter; usual pattern is someone says "wouldn't it be better if we ..", it gets discussed and pondered from all sorts of angles that have nothing to do with anything practical, no-one really argues; and nothing changes. |
Interesting. Why do you think I did not have this discussion with my fellow developers? Wild guess? |
Again with the insults? Clearly touched a nerve.
Because you're not discussing it on the developer mailing-list, which is exactly the place to have this discussion, as you know full well.
I won't get into you quoting yourself and your further lack of comprehension, as you're clearly hostile. *sigh* yaf paludroid.
In a few months, or maybe a year or two, you'll start to realise that in fact you don't really like people who carry on like that. Just remember: you can always back out of that personality cult. And ask yourself if it's only stubbornness keeping you there, since that is exactly how they work. You don't want to admit that you got suckered in, so your cognitive dissonance makes you blame it on others. That's what the hints at being superior, and the occasional tidbits thrown your way, are all about: keeping you stubborn so you won't fall from "grace".
Until then, I'll be LMAO at you every time you come up with such arrant bulshytt. Give my regards to your liege-lord. |
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steveL
Watchman
Joined: 13 Sep 2006
Posts: 5153
Location: The Peanut Gallery
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 6:53 am Post subject: |
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| yagami wrote: | | probably in technical terms, gentoo is missing what funtoo has, or so to be, the "fun" and innovation. but ... gentoo is still working well, at least on my pc's |
I've always found the most fun to be had in Gentoo is in collaborating with other users.
And it's always going to work well, afaic: it has to, or it can't be used as a basis for bindists, and a QA house for all the the other distros. |
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motaito
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 28 May 2014
Posts: 102
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| Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 9:15 am Post subject: |
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@Budoka
I read on several places that updates in arch need to be done with caution as it might break the system. Then again, any advanced user in arch usually states it's not that bad. I guess it comes down to how well you know arch. If you don't need bleeding edge you might also consider to give manjaro a try. It's basically arch preconfigured. They have some hardware detection tools and an own settings manager. Underneath it's arch and you can still adjust it to anything you want just like arch. However, manjaro uses their own repos. They are about a month behind the arch repos. The idea there is to test the packages before adding them to the manjaro repos in order to minimise breakage. If need be you can still add the arch repos or use AUR. |
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yagami
Apprentice
Joined: 12 May 2002
Posts: 269
Location: Leiria, Portugal
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| Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 11:31 am Post subject: |
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| motaito wrote: | @Budoka
I read on several places that updates in arch need to be done with caution as it might break the system. Then again, any advanced user in arch usually states it's not that bad. I guess it comes down to how well you know arch. If you don't need bleeding edge you might also consider to give manjaro a try. It's basically arch preconfigured. They have some hardware detection tools and an own settings manager. Underneath it's arch and you can still adjust it to anything you want just like arch. However, manjaro uses their own repos. They are about a month behind the arch repos. The idea there is to test the packages before adding them to the manjaro repos in order to minimise breakage. If need be you can still add the arch repos or use AUR. |
motaito, a few corrections, as i use Gentoo/Manjaro, always switching between them.
Manjaro is not like arch in any way. Arch never would allowed openRC to become an official option. MANJARO HAS! ( Manjaro has systemd and openrc available as official init systems ). Manjaro also has a custom kernel with BFS for example and also allow multiple kernels at the same time, arch is plain single vanilla kernels.
Also Manjaro doesnt have "a month behind". Stable is usually when its stable, testing is about a week behind and unstable its the same day, next day behind. Testing and stable varies, because depends if they are stable packages or not.
I find that Manjaro filosophy and Arch filosophy differ in many many ways. |
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motaito
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 28 May 2014
Posts: 102
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| Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 12:52 pm Post subject: |
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@yagami
Thanks for the corrections. If you say
| Quote: | | Manjaro is not like arch in any way. |
Do you mean the philosophy or the architecture? I was talking about the architecture. I base my statements on inquiries I made in the manjaro forum e.g. here especially the reply from eskaini which clearly states that manjaro IS arch. It was several month ago. Things might have changed since then. I wasn't using linux/manjaro a lot in that time and I was basically starting out with linux. I liked it and sometimes I read up on manjaro. Another place of information was an episode of LAS where they again say it's arch with extra tools. The manjaro devs guest even bothers to list the differences at some point. However, that is all about the architecture and not the philosophy. I don't know anything about the philosophy of either distro. I could not find the resource about the time frame on how much manjaro is behind arch again (sorry). If memory serves then yes, it's considered stable when it's stable but they mentioned in average its about a month. And you know... the internet is always right  . Seriously though, the time frame might be a bit off but should be somewhat in the vicinity. Either way I think it's worth a consideration if the OP is looking for an alternative. |
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yagami
Apprentice
Joined: 12 May 2002
Posts: 269
Location: Leiria, Portugal
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| Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 9:02 pm Post subject: |
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| motaito wrote: | @yagami
Thanks for the corrections. If you say
| Quote: | | Manjaro is not like arch in any way. |
Do you mean the philosophy or the architecture? I was talking about the architecture. I base my statements on inquiries I made in the manjaro forum e.g. here especially the reply from eskaini which clearly states that manjaro IS arch. It was several month ago. Things might have changed since then. I wasn't using linux/manjaro a lot in that time and I was basically starting out with linux. I liked it and sometimes I read up on manjaro. Another place of information was an episode of LAS where they again say it's arch with extra tools. The manjaro devs guest even bothers to list the differences at some point. However, that is all about the architecture and not the philosophy. I don't know anything about the philosophy of either distro. I could not find the resource about the time frame on how much manjaro is behind arch again (sorry). If memory serves then yes, it's considered stable when it's stable but they mentioned in average its about a month. And you know... the internet is always right . Seriously though, the time frame might be a bit off but should be somewhat in the vicinity. Either way I think it's worth a consideration if the OP is looking for an alternative. |
architecture is very much like archlinux but i think with a few but very important diferences. but that is based on each one's opinion.
in philosophy, they are nothing like archlinux. I guess when the dev of openrc first proposed to manjaro founders to include openrc as an option, expected to be flamed to hell, but in reality he was received and encoraged with open arms.
in terms of package delay, there are some flames about that, since an archlinux dev accused of manjaro for being insecure because of the delay. if you search well, you can find the dirt, the provocations and the replies.
truth is that unstable manjaro branch is at most one day late of archlinux. stable branch is another history.
but not all packages are treated equally and if manjaro dev's disagree if a package is stable, it may take more than a month to hit stable ( this exception already happened with Xorg server packages ).
basicly manjaro is how i think archlinux should be in the first place : very friendly and open minded community ( and devs ), unstable / testing / stable repos for those that like living on the edge, or need "stable" software, with some options like init system for example and kernels, not everything vanilla ( that is just an excuse for lazyness ), and an encorangement to community editions with multiple official and non official editions ( with ManjaroISO to make it easy for everyone to create its own "Manjaro" ).
I currently run Gentoo/Manjaro all the time, i one used archlinux once or twice.
But Manjaro is nothing like archlinux : more options, easier ( really, if everything is binary, why say its "your distro" and make it hard, if everything is compiled and configured upstream !!??), friendlier community and devs and editions for everyone. Manjaro is like better , more features , simpler archlinux but without the "leetiness".
EDIT: took out part about archlinux, since it is not the point of the post. |
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