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Do you think they should bring back stage1 and stage 2 install to handbook?
Yea, I want maximum optimization on my Gentoo install
39%
 39%  [ 11 ]
No, I want to keep my "standard, unoptimized base system" on my Gentoo install
53%
 53%  [ 15 ]
Wut?
7%
 7%  [ 2 ]
Total Votes : 28

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owemeacent
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 5:13 pm    Post subject: Why did the Gentoo developers remove stage1 and stage2? Reply with quote

I'm a very new user to gentoo(2 weeks old), and while I always heard that everything is compiled in Gentoo, I was very disappointed to find out that it isn't when I extracted the stage3 zip. I did hear that it did take a long time for the base system to compile, but isn't that what Gentoo is famous for? Isn't that optimization at its finest? Isn't that what this distro was built on? I do understand that it is still possible but isn't in the handbook for new users. But why did they remove the stage1 and stage2 installations?
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John R. Graham
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your poll is missing an option: "I create the same optimization I would have gotten with a Stage1 install through other means." That's the real reason that the Stage1 and Stage2 install methods were deleted: they were more complicated and added no ultimate value. ;)

- John
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello,

If you do "emerge -e @world" or at least "emerge -DuNav @world", you will get YOUR "optimized" Gentoo ;)
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owemeacent
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 6:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But then why didn't they introduce an "all compiled system" method in the handbook?
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1clue
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 6:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's like this: Using a stage 3 you shortcut some of the early work, and get booted off your hard disk sooner.

Once that's set up (meaning you finished the handbook's basic install) you can re-sync and then recompile everything on your drive according to your configuration. You'll undoubtedly have some updates anyway since the stage tarballs aren't bleeding-edge current. So something will almost certainly need to be recompiled.

So you gain easy setup, and then when you're ready for a break you can tell it to recompile everything and walk away while it happens. Come back later, it's done.

No loss IMO.
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owemeacent
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How long would that take>
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 6:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

2 weeks on a Pentium 166, some hours on a i7.
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1clue
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh come on.

I just reinstalled a first-generation i7 and my post-handbook recompile took about 45 minutes. I submit that it won't take more than a couple hours on anything that somebody might use as a workstation in a practical world.

Think about it. You intend to compile everything on this system anyway. You're not going to install Gentoo on junk, unless you're just bored stiff and want to see how it would go.

The initial installation sets up a tool chain just so you CAN compile everything. By the time you get done with the handbook, you've got a basic system that boots, not even any decent editors IMO. I think it makes sense to recompile here anyway, just to make sure everything is sane. The earliest sensible moment to do this is at the end of the handbook, and you want to do it at the earliest sensible moment.

Fire off the emerge right before you go to sleep, no matter what (sane) system you're on it will be done when you wake up.


If, on the other hand, you load your system up with KDE, firefox, libre, etc. and THEN try to recompile everything, you're almost certainly looking at "hours".

Likewise, if at some point you change your profile to "hardened" (or anything else) you have to do the same thing anyway.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bootstrapping your toolchain tended to leave some cruft lying around that is completely unnecessary, and like others said, emerge -e @world leaves you in the same state otherwise, only difference being that cruft that portage cant deal with.
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owemeacent
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 8:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How is an instance when GCC is compiling itself, would that give it a headache?
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nope, it's automatic
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1clue
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Apps are compiled in a scratch space (/var/tmp/portage/gcc-<version>whatever/ for example) and THEN installed.
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owemeacent
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 8:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On another note, which is totally unrelated to this one. How does the Gentoo release system work? And how long does it take for packages to reach stable?
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 8:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only advantage that a stage1 offered was being able to set your CHOST.

In the dim and distant past, where the provided options were CHOST=i386... and CHOST=i686.... it made a small difference to i486 and i586 class users.
i386 users were out of luck unless they also had a 387 coprocessor as the provided kernels had FPU Emulation off.

All that setting CHOST does is builds the toolchain to execute on the class of CPU you have - it makes no difference to the emitted code.
Today, this only affects a small number of users building on embedded systems that have CPUs that are almost but not quite i686 class.

If you want to do a stage1 today, use the stage3 tarball and run
Code:
emerge --sync
/usr/portage/scripts/bootstrap.sh
gcc-config
emerge -e @system

gcc-config is to select the newest gcc in case the stage1 installed a new one.

See also a long running topic about stage1 on stage3 on the forums
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

owemeacent,

gcc compiles itself three times when you emerge it.

1. gcc is built for C only using the compiler on the system. This need not be gcc
2. the gcc at 1 above is used to compile itself.
3. the gcc built at 2 is used to build all selected languages. This is what gets installed.

The rule of thumb for stable is 30 days with no new bugs but its a little more complex than that as a stable package must not depend on a testing package.
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owemeacent
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 8:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What's the difference between stage1 and stage2?
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 8:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

owemeacent wrote:
What's the difference between stage1 and stage2?
look at the old handbook https://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/handbook/2004.2/handbook-x86.xml
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 8:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

owemeacent,

Stage1 builds the toolchain.
Stage2 builds the @system set
Stage3 adds a few must have packages.

Building the @system set includes the toolchain too but its not built at the very start and if you were to get a new gcc, it would not be selected.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 8:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NeddySeagoon wrote:
owemeacent,

gcc compiles itself three times when you emerge it.

1. gcc is built for C only using the compiler on the system. This need not be gcc
2. the gcc at 1 above is used to compile itself.
3. the gcc built at 2 is used to build all selected languages. This is what gets installed.

The rule of thumb for stable is 30 days with no new bugs but its a little more complex than that as a stable package must not depend on a testing package.
and its dependencies being stable and without bugs ;)
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owemeacent
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 1:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So if I recompiled the entire system again, would eveything work smoother together? And faster boot time?
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 2:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In any practical situation, the only way you'll notice a significant speed improvement without benchmarks is if something was broken before and is no longer broken.
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owemeacent
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 3:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would benchmark with systemd-analyze(I use GNOME). It gives me a precise boot time
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 7:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gentoo is not about speed, but about choice of features.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 10:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

XavierMiller wrote:
Gentoo is not about speed, but about choice of features.
well, now. Back in 2003/2004, when a stage 1 install wasn't *that* uncommon (did it twice), Gentoo was all about the ricers choice of speed. ;-)

A little fun read: gentoo is Rice
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1clue
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yamakuzure wrote:
XavierMiller wrote:
Gentoo is not about speed, but about choice of features.
well, now. Back in 2003/2004, when a stage 1 install wasn't *that* uncommon (did it twice), Gentoo was all about the ricers choice of speed. ;-)

A little fun read: gentoo is Rice


Except it's almost never true. Or at least, not true enough to give significant bragging rights.

Certainly if you're building a system with minimal features and going for every bit of speed you can, then that system will be better than some mainstream packed-with-features distro like RHEL or Ubuntu. But not twice as fast, or even 1.5 times as fast.

The thing about Gentoo is that, if you absolutely can't stand xyz package you can prevent it from ever loading. You can add the apps and features you need, and disable everything else, including compiling support for unwanted things out of the kernel. If something is not there, then its flaws don't affect you.
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