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creaker
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 2:11 am    Post subject: Olde Fashioned Gentooee questions Reply with quote

Hi all.
I have decided to try build Olde Fashioned Gentooee.
Before I begin, I would like to ask a few questions.

The first (and main) question:
1. What about KDE?
NeddySeagoon wrote:
Gnome is not an option. I suspect that KDE is out too

Has anyone successfully installed KDE? If it is really impossible, the remaining questions can be ignored:

2. What a system have I use as a seed? Is it should be a full installation Gentoo? Or is it enough to have a minimal Gentoo?
3. If I will be successful, can I move built system to other box as stage4 tarball?

Thanks.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 8:32 am    Post subject: Re: Olde Fashioned Gentooee questions Reply with quote

creaker wrote:
Hi all.

Teegrins!

Quote:
I have decided to try build Olde Fashioned Gentooee.

You and me both. I actually already did, and it was fun times.

I was about to post a topic, and perhaps create a wikki-article about it once I had more information and experience gathered.

Quote:
Before I begin, I would like to ask a few questions.

I may have some answers!

Quote:
The first (and main) question:
1. What about KDE?
NeddySeagoon wrote:
Gnome is not an option. I suspect that KDE is out too

Has anyone successfully installed KDE? If it is really impossible, the remaining questions can be ignored:

More or less surprising myself, I did, just the other day! Depending on one's needs and/or wants, a 150-200~ package KDE-installation straight off of Portage is quite effortless without any cheating even (kdebase-startkde or kdebase-meta for example). This is the case at least with 4.11.6 version tag on the kdebase-startkde package. I'm unsure, and untrustful how long KDE will play nice like that, however.

It is quite nice that it did work out, for it took some 10-11 hours to compile only those essentials on the tiny 1.7 GHz Pentium M laptop I was testing it on.

I also tried out Enlightenment, which, somewhat to my surprise, is trickier than KDE. It requires some cheating as it's very intent on pulling in eeze, and udev with it. I don't understand at this time why eeze can not be optional, since from a quick look it seems to be dealing with devices only. If I don't need that, I don't need that.
I don't know enough to be able to outright state there is no good reason for that, though, but I'm thinking the now packed-together-efl make the situation only worse, and here I was thinking that Enlightenment was the thing I'd go for after (if) KDE becomes unbearable (to me)...

That's with 0.17.5, which is no longer in Portage, however. I did not yet dig into 0.17.6, which requires the bloa- I mean “condensed” efl-library package.

Quote:
2. What a system have I use as a seed? Is it should be a full installation Gentoo? Or is it enough to have a minimal Gentoo?

Well, you should need only the parts used during the installation... which means you also need to be able to build those parts so as to have the packages to unpack. So, whatever that means... is the answer. I maybe guess.

Quote:
3. If I will be successful, can I move built system to other box as stage4 tarball?

I'm not entirely sure what all that entails. I guess it might be possible, but someone with a more complete picture of this probably needs to confirm/expand on that.


I hope this is of some help at least!

And here's (another) thank you to Neddy for the guide!
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 10:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chiitoo, thanks for your reply!
It is a good news. Since you have KDE 4.11.6 on static /dev installed, I think it worth to try with 4.11.5 (I've just updated one of my Gentoo systems with KDE-4.11.5 for using it as seed).
The only thing I carrying about is how dbus will work. Anyway I going to install a static /dev system.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 11:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Has the wiki been updated? I tried this last November or so, and it wasn't straightforward at that point. Haven't had time to try again.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 5:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another one question: quickpkg has packed linux-headers-3.9, but I have kernel-3.10.32 installed. Are these headers suitable? Why quickpkg ignored linux-headers-3.10 that presented as well under sys-kernel/linux-header directory?
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 12:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

creaker,

It doesn't much matter where you start from. All thats needed is a stage1 that
a) has udev and friends missing
b) is capable of building @system after an indeterminant number of steps.

Of course, it would be easier if I provided a suitable stage1 but I haven't got round to that :)
I have never built KDE either, since I have never used it.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 12:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would think that it would be easy enough to use whatever base is provided.

Remove udev* pkgs, set "-udev" flags and recompile whatever needs it based on "newuse" flag.

And creating whatever nodes are needed for things like disks, usb mount points, etc. (become familiar with mknod)

For a proper /dev one could tar up what is provided before removing udev, and use that as a basis going forward.


Edit to add: AFAIC udev functionality should have been an extension of the kernel, kept there and triggered off with setting the DEVTMPFS flag.
At least for the early parts of what udev does. Then programs like pmount or a slimmed down udev would pick up the slack.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose,

As you say getting to @system is fairly easy.
cp -a will populate a static /dev from a dynamic one but eventually you need to make friends with mknod.

It starts to get harder when you want a desktop, then you need to rip udev out of ebuilds, starting with Xorg.
I've just done sound-jucier, it works but at present, has to be relaunched to see a new CD.

Maybe I need to publish my gentoo-static overlay too?

Hmm .".. slimmed down udev"
I wonder what I could call that ... yauf :) or even /sbin/hotplug
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 1:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1clue wrote:
Has the wiki been updated? I tried this last November or so, and it wasn't straightforward at that point. Haven't had time to try again.

I'm not aware of a wikki article, which is why I'm planning/thinking of creating one. That is, when/if I feel confident enough at some point.

It would mostly be a copy of Neddy's guide, which you're probably referring to as well. As far as I know, the third edition is the latest on-line. Rumour has it that some updated version(s) exist on certain machines, but they're being held captive by time.

creaker wrote:
Another one question: quickpkg has packed linux-headers-3.9, but I have kernel-3.10.32 installed. Are these headers suitable? Why quickpkg ignored linux-headers-3.10 that presented as well under sys-kernel/linux-header directory?

For linux-headers specifically, I'm thinking something like equery d linux-headers could tell you what's the minimum version you'd need. I'm not sure if they have anything to do with the kernel version.

NeddySeagoon wrote:
Maybe I need to publish my gentoo-static overlay too?

~nods~
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NeddySeagoon wrote:
It starts to get harder when you want a desktop, then you need to rip udev out of ebuilds, starting with Xorg.
I've just done sound-jucier, it works but at present, has to be relaunched to see a new CD.


Yes, a desktop is a whole different critter than a server, at least when dealing with udev.
Devices can be mounted manually, but as you said programs may have to be restarted/relaunched to see the changes.
I do use an old version of udev and it works for me. (it's not without some fiddling as a few pkgs have to be masked at the latest level)
I don't auto mount anything, preferring to just do a command line mount.

Without udev, one also needs to be aware that along with hotplugging they lose upower/udisk management.

Quote:
Maybe I need to publish my gentoo-static overlay too?


Sounds like a good idea.


All in all, it's not too difficult to run a system without udev, if one understands the tradeoffs.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Maybe I need to publish my gentoo-static overlay too?

It would be would be greatly appreciated :D

Hey Neddy can I ask which WM/DE do you use/recommend?
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tractor Girl,

Well, I used to use Gnome and twm, now I use Xfce and twm.
My static overlay is at http://grytpype-thynne.org/~roy/portage its also in git, thanks steveL.
I'll post the git link when steveL gives me the all clear.

I would have had a stage1 but my PC has a charred Vcore input connector on the PSU part.
Its taken me a while to find. "Graunching" (thats a technical term) a PCI-e power connector onto the motherboard socket, seems to have restored functionality.
WARNING: don't do this at home as the polarity is swapped. If you don't know this, you are going to need a lot of new parts.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 11:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chiitoo wrote:
1clue wrote:
Has the wiki been updated? I tried this last November or so, and it wasn't straightforward at that point. Haven't had time to try again.

I'm not aware of a wikki article, which is why I'm planning/thinking of creating one. That is, when/if I feel confident enough at some point.

It would mostly be a copy of Neddy's guide, which you're probably referring to as well. As far as I know, the third edition is the latest on-line. Rumour has it that some updated version(s) exist on certain machines, but they're being held captive by time.

creaker wrote:
Another one question: quickpkg has packed linux-headers-3.9, but I have kernel-3.10.32 installed. Are these headers suitable? Why quickpkg ignored linux-headers-3.10 that presented as well under sys-kernel/linux-header directory?

For linux-headers specifically, I'm thinking something like equery d linux-headers could tell you what's the minimum version you'd need. I'm not sure if they have anything to do with the kernel version.

NeddySeagoon wrote:
Maybe I need to publish my gentoo-static overlay too?

~nods~


Neddy's guide was what I was thinking of. It would be nice to have it updated. I've been stalling on an install for awhile now, mostly trying to get enough time to finish an install like that.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am reliably informed that :-

Code:
git clone git://weaver.gentooexperiment.org/gentoo-static
will fetch my gentoo-static overlay from git.
Now I need to learn git to keep it up to date.

I'm also being encouraged to contribute to http://weaver.gentooexperimental.org/trac/gentoo-static
Thats something else for me to learn.

A warning to users. I'm a staffer, not a dev, so I'm learning to hack ebuilds as I go.
Maybe thats something else to do ... apply for my +w

-- edit --

Fixed the git clone link.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 11:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you Neddy ! I had my qemu prepared and Openbsd iso ready to install, but it will have to wait :)
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 1:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, since 3.9 kernel headers are suitable, I followed the guide and unpacked binaries at the installation environment.
Right now I'm stuck at "Code Listing 4.3". I entered into sh (/bin/sh -> bash) and typed the rest of commands:
Code:
/usr/bin/as -> x86_64-pc-linux-gnu-as
sys-devel/make
as symlink
ld symlink
ar symlink

I didn't get any response for these commands. Maybe it's the way it should be, I'm not familiar with sh.
After that I just pressed Ctrl+C and typed "exit" in order to return from sh, since I have to mount proc in next step. Is it a right way, or did I something in a wrong way?

Added:
Quote:
/usr/lib should by a symlink to /usr/lib64 move stuff around if not

may be it worth to add
Code:
mkdir /mnt/gentoo/usr/lib64
ln -s /mnt/gentoo/usr/lib64 mnt/gentoo/usr/lib

somewhere before unpacking binaries because tar creates /usr/lib as a directory, not as symlink

Added:
After chrooting env-update causes an error: "/dev/urandom missing"
I just copied urandom node from seed system, as well as console and null. Is it right?
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 10:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose wrote:
Yes, a desktop is a whole different critter than a server, at least when dealing with udev.
Devices can be mounted manually, but as you said programs may have to be restarted/relaunched to see the changes.
I do use an old version of udev and it works for me. (it's not without some fiddling as a few pkgs have to be masked at the latest level)
I don't auto mount anything, preferring to just do a command line mount.

Without udev, one also needs to be aware that along with hotplugging they lose upower/udisk management.

Mhm. I think I didn't have auto-mount stuff happening really at any point ever since I recently'ish started with Linux (2010), and upower, udisks, and the likes are long gone. I put some time into being able to run KDE without nepomuk and -kits as well, so static-dev feels just natural to me somehow. I like to strip things... of things... I maybe guess.

This choice thing is nice. I like it. It does somewhat seem as if it's becoming perhaps more and more difficult to find though...


The most I had difficulties with my first static-dev installation (booted on first try!), was getting X to use the i915 driver (which worked fine in console). That, and terminal emulators. I noticed they worked with CONFIG_DEVTMPFS enabled, which isn't particularly desired in this case, methinks.
For the graphics, it was more or less obvious, as it would have /dev/dri/ created, but I had thought I created it before. The problem with that was probably that the video0 under it was not. I'd cheat a little and copy it over.

For terminals, it took a while longer for me to figure out, as I could not see why the nodes were not created under /dev/pts/ and well, it seems only similar issues were mostly about Arch Linux and switch to systemd... so searching around didn't help much. After I thought of using strace, I noticed that they were trying to chown a node under /dev/pts/ and that they didn't have the permission for it. I also could see that /etc/groups was checked.

Might be obvious to some, but I certainly did not think about that. Is it normal to require a user to be in the tty group when using them nodes in this fashion? I guess it does make sense, given the permissions on the nodes, which probably aren't needed when using them 'middlemen'...


Aside from those two bits, the most difficult part is of course getting desktop environments to build without libudev. I believe Enlightenment only has it as a 'be there' requirement. I successfully started it without udev running, though it did need parts of it to build. Will still need to look into if it's easy to disable the eeze... eh, heh.

NeddySeagoon wrote:
I am reliably informed that :-

Code:
git clone git@weaver.gentooexperimental.org:gentoo-static.git gentoo-static
will fetch my gentoo-static overlay from git.
Now I need to learn git to keep it up to date.

I'm also being encouraged to contribute to http://weaver.gentooexperimental.org/trac/gentoo-static
Thats something else for me to learn.

A warning to users. I'm a staffer, not a dev, so I'm learning to hack ebuilds as I go.
Maybe thats something else to do ... apply for my +w

Cool news. :)

creaker wrote:
OK, since 3.9 kernel headers are suitable, I followed the guide and unpacked binaries at the installation environment.
Right now I'm stuck at "Code Listing 4.3". I entered into sh (/bin/sh -> bash) and typed the rest of commands:
Code:
/usr/bin/as -> x86_64-pc-linux-gnu-as
sys-devel/make
as symlink
ld symlink
ar symlink

I didn't get any response for these commands. Maybe it's the way it should be, I'm not familiar with sh.
After that I just pressed Ctrl+C and typed "exit" in order to return from sh, since I have to mount proc in next step. Is it a right way, or did I something in a wrong way?

There's quite a bit of stuff one needs to figure out or know beforehand. I felt some of the guide to be like 'notes' and 'to do' scribbles, and I was told that a lot, if not most of the guide was indeed written 'at one sitting'. The above part, I think, could look like something like this in more finished form:

Code:
ln -s /bin/bash /bin/sh
ln -s /usr/bin/gawk /bin/awk
ln -s /usr/bin/gmake /usr/bin/make
ln -s /usr/x86_64-pc-linux-gnu/binutils-bin/<ver>/ar /usr/bin/ar
ln -s /usr/x86_64-pc-linux-gnu/binutils-bin/<ver>/as /usr/bin/as
ln -s /usr/x86_64-pc-linux-gnu/binutils-bin/<ver>/ld /usr/bin/ld
ln -s /usr/x86_64-pc-linux-gnu/binutils-bin/<ver>/nm /usr/bin/nm

Of course, one needs to adjust with their system, like I did on the 32-bit installation I experimented on.

Quote:
Added:
After chrooting env-update causes an error: "/dev/urandom missing"
I just copied urandom node from seed system, as well as console and null. Is it right?

Yes, one needs to either create those by hand, or borrow them. It's actually mentioned shortly in there, just above Code Listing 4.4: Mounting Special Filesystems: “Purists should use mknod to make /dev/null and /dev/console in the chroot but cp -a works too.”


I hope this helps at least a bit!
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chiitoo wrote:

I hope this helps at least a bit!

It helps a lot, thank you!
I initially thought it just a some kind of pseudocode and it shows what a links should be created, but when I typed (just out of curiousity) /bin/bash -> sh, it droped me into shall and I was misoriented. OK, I think it will be correct if I will reproduce these symlinks as they exists in my seed system.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 11:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

creaker wrote:
I initially thought it just a some kind of pseudocode and it shows what a links should be created, but when I typed (just out of curiousity) /bin/bash -> sh, it droped me into shall and I was misoriented.

Heh, yeah. I think I kind of remember when I did that the first time, when I did not know what 'sh' would do when used alone.

Quote:
OK, I think it will be correct if I will reproduce these symlinks as they exists in my seed system.

That should be good more or less, I think. What I wrote is what I guessed, not as I was educated. I do hope it's correct!


There is something I'm uncertain about when it comes to those links. If one looks at a 'normally' installed system, one will probably find that they're not actually linked straight to binutils. For example, nm:

Code:
/usr/bin/nm -> x86_64-pc-linux-gnu-nm

and

Code:
/usr/bin/x86_64-pc-linux-gnu-nm -> /usr/x86_64-pc-linux-gnu/bin/nm

and finally

Code:
/usr/x86_64-pc-linux-gnu/bin/nm -> /usr/x86_64-pc-linux-gnu/binutils-bin/2.24/nm

So, the links I made (and used as an example) do not do this 'bouncing around'. I do have some thoughts about why they are like that, but those thoughts are a bit unclear to put into words at this time... Mostly I think it's about compatibility, so that something looking for a thing in a different place than another may still find it. I've yet to prove that theory to myself as nothing has visibly gone awry on me (yet).

I can almost refer to something I recently read and could be related, but not quite, as I forget what and/or where it was exactly.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chiitoo wrote:
So, the links I made (and used as an example) do not do this 'bouncing around'. I do have some thoughts about why they are like that, but those thoughts are a bit unclear to put into words at this time... Mostly I think it's about compatibility, so that something looking for a thing in a different place than another may still find it. I've yet to prove that theory to myself as nothing has visibly gone awry on me (yet).


Each symlink should have pointed to the same file vs a chain of symlinks ultimately pointing to a file.

There is no difference between
<symlink1> -> <file>
<symlink2> -> <file>
<symlink3> -> <file>
and
<symlink1> -> <symlink2> -> <symlink3> -> <file>
except for the small amount of time it takes to transverse a chain of symlinks.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chiitoo wrote:

There is something I'm uncertain about when it comes to those links. If one looks at a 'normally' installed system, one will probably find that they're not actually linked straight to binutils. For example, nm:

This allow you to select different binutils and gcc versions to use. (look at gcc-config and eselect binutils)
Better respect the linking scheme so.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

krinn wrote:
Chiitoo wrote:

There is something I'm uncertain about when it comes to those links. If one looks at a 'normally' installed system, one will probably find that they're not actually linked straight to binutils. For example, nm:

This allow you to select different binutils and gcc versions to use. (look at gcc-config and eselect binutils)
Better respect the linking scheme so.


The original symlink in /usr/bin is all that's really needed as far as eselect.

I doubt very seriously that /usr/bin/x86_64-pc-linux-gnu-nm is used vs just /usr/bin/nm
and the same for /usr/x86_64-pc-linux-gnu/bin/nm

Someone just didn't understand symlinks and how to write decent bash code.

But given that that is the way they have designed it AND if one wants to use eselect for symlinking then yes they should pay attention to the way it's done.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 1:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose wrote:

I doubt very seriously that /usr/bin/x86_64-pc-linux-gnu-nm is used vs just /usr/bin/nm

:D
Code:
checking for BSD- or MS-compatible name lister (nm)... /usr/bin/i686-pc-linux-gnu-nm -B
checking the name lister (/usr/bin/i686-pc-linux-gnu-nm -B) interface... BSD nm
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Anon-E-moose
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I stand corrected, but I wonder why that instead of just nm since all they're checking for is bsd compability
other than that was their choice when they created the configure script.

Actually now that I think about it, the old way that binutils and gcc worked was they created the binaries x86*gcc in /usr/bin/ and gcc was a link to that. That explains configure. (substitute nm or whatever for gcc)

The third link is unnecessary IMO.

I haven't checked to see what eselect really does with symlinks when versions are changed.
Whether it rewrites all symlinks or just the last one in the chain.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It would be interesting to know, how does these links organized at Neddy's system. Are they made as a chain of symlinks or just as direct link to the end point?
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