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steveL
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 10:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ssuominen wrote:
User: Anon-E-moose
Post: post 7509970
Reason: He is doing nothing but annoy people purposely, please just read his last ~50 or so posts, even if all this systemd bs isn't stopped, this particular user is the worst, please start with somewhere

Wow that's revealing. It indicates clearly that you, and likely others, have been agitating in the background to have criticism of systemd suppressed.
desultory wrote:
Participating in that topic is not inherently harmful

Thank heavens for sanity. Or we'd end up in a situation where trolls can poke for a reaction, then raise a feedback thread about it, then get people banned for commenting on that thread.
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PaulBredbury
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 11:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:
criticism of systemd suppressed.

No, it's your trolling that's the problem - saying 100 times, "I hate systemd", is *not* reasonable criticism - it's gone beyond all reasonable constraints ;)

*I'm* telling you this, and just to be crystal clear, I'm actually on your side against systemd. The difference is, I do something about it, rather than just moan ad nauseum.
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steveL
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 12:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PaulBredbury wrote:
steveL wrote:
criticism of systemd suppressed.

No, it's your trolling that's the problem - saying 100 times, "I hate systemd", is *not* reasonable criticism - it's gone beyond all reasonable constraints ;)

*I'm* telling you this, and just to be crystal clear, I'm actually on your side against systemd. The difference is, I do something about it, rather than just moan ad nauseum.

Paul: please read the post I actually addressed to you.

When you get back: where did I say I hate systemd? I couldn't give a rat's arse about it. There's nothing I need to do, apart from not install it, and try to deal with the backwash of implementation artefacts that pollute the rest of the distro. And there, whoa what do you know, I do things too, you twit ;p

--
The only thing I hate is constant diatribes about how I'm a hater, or a troll, when all I want is to be left alone to use Gentoo without getting moaned at ad nauseam about how I'm a traditionalist fusty for not giving a sh1t about "socket activation" and in fact being more concerned about what happens on my machine after it's booted to X, and I can actually use it. You know, to get work done.

And there I'm much more concerned about it doing only what I tell it, and not spending all my CPU and hard-disk cycles on running a production database server on a laptop or desktop just to get a crappy "innovative" slocate that I don't even use. Keep your idiot-boxen, by all means. I'm not telling anyone what to do with their machines. Just stop whinging at me about how life would be so much better if only we all followed the One True Way, since linux distros would all collaborate and there'd be nothing to distinguish them, and say goodbye to portable daemons, because I know that is a load of total and utter crap.

Sell it to someone else, they might want to buy a bridge too.
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systemd. It is a really ass pain

update - "a most excellent portage wrapper"

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TomWij
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

desultory wrote:
A rose, by any name, still tends to respond positively to suitably composted bovine droppings when properly applied. Coincidentally neither the rose, irrespective of name, nor I react quite so positively to the fresh kind, especially when it is piled about with no evident intent other than to empty the vessel from whence it came.


We can still assure it had a joyful life.

desultory wrote:
The name, as the bard so neatly pointed out, is not the important part, it is the thing which bears that name, whether presented in the idiom of game theory, or as a Venn diagram, or in some form of hieroglyph. Call it whatever you like, there are multiple viewpoints to take into account.


Game theory sounds good; it is a game entity with a name which by itself is rather limited, what really makes the game awesome is what that entity does.

desultory wrote:
Even in regards to terms as broadly abused as "troll", newspeak is at best a poor attempt at a solution.


This applies recursively; for example, I can deem that labeling it as newspeak is at best a poor attempt at a solution, perhaps giving the concept of "labeling it as newspeak" its own label. Call it "newspeaklabeling" or so.

desultory wrote:
To be technically correct, you can rest assured that they would not be involved, just as forum moderators would not be involved in moderating the mailing lists or #gentoo, aside from those engaged in such projects in addition to their roles here.


Gentoo ComRel has authority across Gentoo's borders, as stated by their own description; the same goes for higher instances like the Gentoo Council and Gentoo Infrastructure. Their involvement, however, is somewhat comparable to the involvement of the moderators here, hands-off.

desultory wrote:
TomWij wrote:
Quoting yourself: PaulBredbury goes into pseudo-intellectual mode, and sprouts off-topic nonsense which no-one can follow, presumably pretending to be clever.

Disclaimer: Reading and interpreting this as if it would be stated by a random individual out of the blue, reconsider what its effect has on the reader; this post of mine might also have a detrimental effect on you if it misses this disclaimer, however, my intention with writing this post is to give you advice and considerations for when you want to pursue moderation tasks in the future. As with anything, it's a(n popular) opinion so take it with a grain of salt; I can be very well convinced that what you suggest works in different scenarios and in different ways, but am questioning it in the context of this website. I appreciate you weigh in on the discussion as a neutral individual.


Considering the discussion at hand, dismissing his commentary about you as "stated by a random individual out of the blue" rather strongly indicates that you have not been following along, and that you have certainly not been following your advice with respect to considering alternate viewpoints.


What I am asking of Paul is to assume my commentary as if it were written by someone else, such that his perception of me doesn't give the reading a judged misrepresentation; there is acceptation happening here, as this is an example of how such sentences from a (would-be) moderator are read. As for me, it is noted that I come over like that; and thus will be addressed in future writings, for as far I can reshape them for better interpretation.

desultory wrote:
Consider your posts here and in various topics regarding systemd, and to a lesser extent other topics as well. You consistently attempt linguistic gymnastics that are evidently not quite within your grasp. You react defensively or dismissively to any criticism even to the point of asking for discussion of your social impedance mismatches with various others to be removed from public view. Probably worst of all, you consistently feed unproductive discussions, especially when they become circular or attract what others here have described as trolls.

None of that is helping anyone.

TomWij wrote:
Personally; while people might believe I want to kill topics (which is a side effect of locking), I actually like to see their movement become stronger as it can yield improvements that benefit everyone.
This evidently leads to negative side effects at times.


Where do I react defensively of dismissively? What I am writing listens and supports; there is not much to defend or dismiss other than the limits put forward of the various resources like manpower, processes and tools that we have available. In this respect that is a honest "look, we can can't do this because ...; we need more contributions, revised processes and improved tools to be able to achieve this"; giving explanation through listening and support like this is much better than ignoring the person altogether, as that gives an understanding of what we need to do to achieve what the users want.

Look at it differently: If I were to fulfill a political agenda, I would do so on the mailing lists; there is nothing to gain by using the forums for this, as it would rather have the opposite effect of making the political agenda fail because it raises awareness and has people stop it. If I didn't give a shit about the users, then I also wouldn't be here; however, I don't fulfill a political agenda in the context of systemd and I am instead concerned about the users being affected by political agenda and that's pretty much why I am here. But it is hard to listen and support when people go across the lines of the forum guide; and so we have come to this point, where the signal that I am trying to listen to is hidden in noise. The time has come to put on another radio channel...
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PaulBredbury
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:
Just stop whinging at me about how life would be so much better if only we all followed the One True Way, since linux distros would all collaborate and there'd be nothing to distinguish them, and say goodbye to portable daemons, because I know that is a load of total and utter crap.


You're ranting about systemd again. In *this* thread 8O

You guys have got systemd in your brains, and you just can't think of anything else, it seems.

Have I told you today how much I hate systemd? No. I haven't, have I? No. But you have, even when this thread is not about systemd, it's about you continually ranting the same rant about hating systemd. See the irony? Let systemd go.
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saellaven
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PaulBredbury wrote:

Have I told you today how much I hate systemd? No. I haven't, have I? No. But you all have, even when this thread is not about systemd, it's about you continually ranting the same rant about hating systemd. See the irony? Let systemd go.


The problem is, the people behind systemd are waging a campaign to take over every distribution out there. I don't have a problem with systemd or people that want to use systemd, I have a problem with people that insist that I have to use systemd even if I don't want it for a wide variety of technical reasons. I'll route around damage, like discontinuing my use of GNOME, but if left to their own devices unfettered, we will have little choice going forward.

The stand I've made is less about systemd itself and more about the threat that systemd (or any other program that tries to take over* the core functions of my system) poses to the health of the entire Linux ecosystem going forward. Look at the /usr decision by the Council - it was done with little notice to people not on the project ML, the Council member presenting it intentionally withheld patches to make openrc more robust (both from openrc, as its lead, but also the existence of those patches from his fellow Council members), etc and it all originated with systemd's decision to no longer support a separate /usr because LP doesn't see any need for a separate /usr. I learned my lesson because of that incident. So, I speak out about these silent encroachments in an attempt to let the community know what is being done behind the scenes to limit their choices, purely because of the political desires of those whom believe their one way is the only correct way.

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."


* Mark nscd service as forking in systemd service file It will be resolved differently, but there was even a recent proposal to have glibc link to systemd. If nobody ever stood up against the craziness, where would it all end?
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ulenrich
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 6:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PaulBredbury wrote:
You're ranting about systemd again. In *this* thread 8O

You guys have got systemd in your brains, and you just can't think of anything else, it seems.

Have I told you today how much I hate systemd? No. I haven't, have I? No. But you have, even when this thread is not about systemd, it's about you continually ranting the same rant about hating systemd. See the irony? Let systemd go.

You think these guys are part of a super sophisticated LP propaganda machinery?
Just to motivate dumb guys like me to issue corrections of the most obvious flaws and thereby advertise systemd?
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been following these posts over systemd and would be trolls. I'm sorry, but this is getting nowhere fast.

This is what I'd like to add: thanks to the systemd guys, linux in general is changing a lot. Discussion on this is important and should stay open to avoid supporting only one supported init system. Whatever your personal preferences, gentoo should still be about building a system the way you want it.

From my point of view, the main problem is the lack of clarity of, firstly, gentoo's future. Secondly, of technical documentation of what is available and possible on gentoo. The handbook is lacking in that regard. I needed arch's wiki to start understanding how systemd, logind, polkit & dbus fit together, how to configure them. For openrc, the same thing can be said with consolekit, policykit, and the choice of udev, eudev, mdev.

I remember when after following the handbook, all I had left to do was to emerge <wm of your choice> firefox, and you were set to go.
Today, after finishing the handbook, you've still got a long way to go.

So I'm writing this with three points in mind:
1/ that I'm not the only one who thinks that the handbook is lagging behind the actual state of how to manage your userspace on gentoo.
2/ that we can move away from calling each other trolls and start discussing how best to address the problem stated in 1/.
3/ that clarifying the doc will help calm down the religious wars.
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TomWij
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

saellaven wrote:
Look at the /usr decision by the Council - it was done with little notice to people not on the project ML


It has been brought out as a news item: 2013-09-27-initramfs-required.en.txt

saellaven wrote:
the Council member presenting it intentionally withheld patches to make openrc more robust (both from openrc, as its lead, but also the existence of those patches from his fellow Council members), etc


Which patches is this about? Which other member is aware of these patches? If you believe these patches can make a change, as well as that they were missed; you can put them forward on the project ML, they will indirectly reach the OpenRC lead as well. As a side note: The lead of OpenRC is part of the Council, whom also wrote the above news item.

saellaven wrote:
and it all originated with systemd's decision to no longer support a separate /usr because LP doesn't see any need for a separate /usr. I learned my lesson because of that incident. So, I speak out about these silent encroachments in an attempt to let the community know what is being done behind the scenes to limit their choices, purely because of the political desires of those whom believe their one way is the only correct way.


That is done in an as public way as it can be, as well as listening and discussing with everyone whom is interested; the council IRC channel is in -m mode (except +m mode when chaos arises) even during meetings, the project mailing list can be read and replied to by everyone interested, the results are published on the wiki, as well as news items are brought out when those results are important for the user.
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TomWij
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SirRobin2318 wrote:
This is what I'd like to add: thanks to the systemd guys, linux in general is changing a lot. Discussion on this is important and should stay open to avoid supporting only one supported init system. Whatever your personal preferences, gentoo should still be about building a system the way you want it.


Indeed, this philosophy you mention towards the end is what Gentoo is all about; as can be read in about and philosophy.

SirRobin2318 wrote:
From my point of view, the main problem is the lack of clarity of, firstly, gentoo's future.


Given that we are a collective set of users contributing, the future is rather unclear; you might be able to predict a future by looking at the discussions on the mailing lists and IRC, as well as the decisions made by projects, project leads and the Council. Other than that, I am unaware of a future or goal that we have voted on to follow; I think that a large share of us still wants to keep Gentoo what it is, continuing its philosophy as well as extending and improving it over time.

Take these words with a grain of salt; they're a personal view on the future, and do not necessarily reflect the collective set of users contributing. That reflection, after all, would be rather based on a prediction; unless we actually bring up the future of Gentoo as a Council item, which might be interesting to address the Council with given that they've stated somewhere last week that a discussion about a topic every now and then would be welcome.

SirRobin2318 wrote:
Secondly, of technical documentation of what is available and possible on gentoo. The handbook is lacking in that regard. I needed arch's wiki to start understanding how systemd, logind, polkit & dbus fit together, how to configure them. For openrc, the same thing can be said with consolekit, policykit, and the choice of udev, eudev, mdev.


These are usually documented on the man pages and/or upstream's websites.

SirRobin2318 wrote:
I remember when after following the handbook, all I had left to do was to emerge <wm of your choice> firefox, and you were set to go.
Today, after finishing the handbook, you've still got a long way to go.


It is mostly still that emerge as far as I am aware of; it indeed is an exception if you want to use GNOME 3, as with that WM it is becoming more and more required to first do a systemd migration. There are ideas and/or plans in one or more Gentoo projects to bring a systemd stage3 (next to the existing stage3) to alleviate this situation; that way, it will be possible to again follow the handbook as before without having to go through an extra unnecessary migration.

SirRobin2318 wrote:
So I'm writing this with three points in mind:
1/ that I'm not the only one who thinks that the handbook is lagging behind the actual state of how to manage your userspace on gentoo.


Are the further concerns with it than the systemd migration? Or is there a concern with the wiki article on systemd? (Asked in a different way: Is the migration painful? How?)

SirRobin2318 wrote:
2/ that we can move away from calling each other trolls and start discussing how best to address the problem stated in 1/.
3/ that clarifying the doc will help calm down the religious wars.


+1
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ulenrich
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 8:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SirRobin2318 wrote:
3/ that clarifying the doc will help calm down the religious wars.

Religous wars never calm. They eventually end. In the mean time Gentoo forum users have to confess:
PaulBredbury wrote:
Have I told you today how much I hate systemd?

This the minimum to meet our obligation to the freedom fighter:
saellaven wrote:
The stand I've made is less about systemd itself and more about the threat that systemd (or any other program that tries to take over* the core functions of my system) poses to the health of the entire Linux ecosystem going forward.

The question remains: Do they have to fight where we live, where there are no enemies?
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saellaven
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 8:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TomWij wrote:
saellaven wrote:
Look at the /usr decision by the Council - it was done with little notice to people not on the project ML


It has been brought out as a news item: 2013-09-27-initramfs-required.en.txt


I should have used the phrase "prior warning." Believe it or not, not every non-dev has time to participate in every mailing list all the time.

TomWij wrote:

saellaven wrote:
the Council member presenting it intentionally withheld patches to make openrc more robust (both from openrc, as its lead, but also the existence of those patches from his fellow Council members), etc


Which patches is this about? Which other member is aware of these patches? If you believe these patches can make a change, as well as that they were missed; you can put them forward on the project ML, they will indirectly reach the OpenRC lead as well. As a side note: The lead of OpenRC is part of the Council, whom also wrote the above news item.


Tom, we've had this discussion... it's the very discussion that made me determine that you don't act in good faith and you were here to troll for your ego's sake, resulting in my asking you to no longer reply to me. Perhaps if you spent more time listening and less time smiling because you see your name next to a post, you'd remember.

I'll reiterate, yet again, hoping maybe this time you'll actually listen rather than just talk circles

http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-901206.html

per ryao's post @ Thu Nov 29, 2012 3:31 pm williamh knew about the patches. That's 8 months before he proposed removing separate /usr to the Council and almost a year before the Council voted on his proposal. During the Council's chat before the vote, he never mentioned the patches once to his fellow Council members. That suggests that he intentionally withheld that information, perhaps because he's conflicted in his role as OpenRC lead but also as a member of the systemd team, and he abused his position on the Council and the good faith of his fellow Council members to promulgate his own agenda while also holding OpenRC back.

Since the Council's decision, we've seen numerous problems with initramfs causing systems to not boot properly, people being forced to alter production systems to eliminate a lvm separated /usr, etc... and it all comes down to a technical limitation in systemd/udev imposed by Lennart Poettering because he didn't see any possible reason why anyone should ever need a separate /usr. Until that point, OpenRC and even sysvinit prior to that worked fine - I've been using such a setup since the mid-late 90s. It was intentionally broken by the systemd devs and, rather than limit LP's damage to his own init system, williamh intentionally damaged any system that chose NOT to use systemd.

I thought about going to the Council afterwards, but per Council policy, all votes are final... and why are they going to listen to me? I get the run around from devs like you that simply set out to frustrate people into submission, devs like ssuominen* telling people that if they dare to challenge the devs, they might as well leave the Gentoo universe completely (an attitude that he also took up with the eudev gentoo devs when they dared to fork his pet project), etc. Since I started using Gentoo in 2006, there's been a subtle "devs don't care about the users" type attitude, but it's gotten REALLY prevalent over the last half a year, particularly revolving around systemd's intrusions deeper into user space and the proponents of systemd treating it as a political campaign. And, say I take it up with ComRel, why are they going to care? Who are they going to side with, some users on the forum or a handful of devs that have gotten themselves into key positions, whom they not only have to work with every day, but whom can up and change the political structure underneath them at any time (see the recent changes to QA and the fight back as the new QA team tries to impose it's will on the tree)?

*
ssuominen wrote:

I should have guessed, you are in for the complaining, but not for the contributing part. No offense, but the distribution doesn't lose much with users like you. Don't slam the door on the way out.



TomWij wrote:

That is done in an as public way as it can be, as well as listening and discussing with everyone whom is interested; the council IRC channel is in -m mode (except +m mode when chaos arises) even during meetings, the project mailing list can be read and replied to by everyone interested, the results are published on the wiki, as well as news items are brought out when those results are important for the user.


Sorry, but it wasn't... otherwise it would have been posted PRIOR TO THE VOTE to the forums, planet, the dev and user mailing lists, etc. Instead, it was a footnote in a post on a the project mailing list prior to the decision, where fewer people are likely to see it... and it had already been pushed back a number of times until a vote was basically forced on a night where there was little non-Council participation. It reminds me of how my local school district decided to put a supplemental budget up for a vote on a Dec 21, 2012 (a Friday night before Christmas, knowing many people would either be doing last minute shopping or travelling), with the polls open for 6 hours (noon to 6pm with the vote being done at the school, where the teachers had easy access to vote but other people working or busy with holiday stuff wouldn't). Sure, it met the dictionary definition of an open public vote, but everything was done to ensure the outcome that the school board favored.

AND THAT is why I'm so vigilant regarding keeping OpenRC and such as a choice in Gentoo... because the systemd proponents will use every political maneuver and underhanded trick to push their agenda. Standing by and saying nothing means one day, you simply find yourself at the bottom of a cliff that you were pushed off by someone else, and you're forced to climb back up on your own just to get to where you were before.
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SirRobin2318
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 8:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Take these words with a grain of salt; they're a personal view on the future, and do not necessarily reflect the collective set of users contributing. That reflection, after all, would be rather based on a prediction; unless we actually bring up the future of Gentoo as a Council item, which might be interesting to address the Council with given that they've stated somewhere last week that a discussion about a topic every now and then would be welcome.

Well yes, why not? Let the council give an official answer, and see how the community reacts. I'd rather see gentoo support multiple inits, but if that's not what they have in mind, a lot of people here would be interested to know...

Quote:
These are usually documented on the man pages and/or upstream's websites.
...
Are the further concerns with it than the systemd migration? Or is there a concern with the wiki article on systemd? (Asked in a different way: Is the migration painful? How?)

I've been using gentoo for 10 years. The handbook hasn't changed, and it should have. Ten years ago there was none of the consolekit, policykit, systemd madness. Today these are part of a basic functional system. Be it systemd or openrc, for a laptop or a server, there is a chapter missing at the end of the handbook. It should explain the different paths that can be chosen, and provide explanations for each. I can see myself deploying systemd on a server to use nspawn, the easiness of specifying new services, and on the other hand a laptop with startx and fluxbox, no policykit for network because a dhcp will suit my needs. And vice versa.

What I'm trying to say is that the purpose and the functionality of these need to be documented, so users can make a choice. The way to achieve that choice should also be documented.

We would be seeing a lot less posts for help (do a search for networkmanager and see how many are due to not understanding polkit). And we would see less FUD on systemd vs openrc.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

saellaven wrote:
you don't act in good faith and you were here to troll

as I just stated above: confess or respectfully ignore ....
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 8:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ulenrich wrote:

saellaven wrote:
The stand I've made is less about systemd itself and more about the threat that systemd (or any other program that tries to take over* the core functions of my system) poses to the health of the entire Linux ecosystem going forward.

The question remains: Do they have to fight where we live, where there are no enemies?


You've been waging a pro-systemd campaign here on the forums for more than a year... and prior to a warning a couple months ago from an admin telling you to take a breather, you showed up in every thread where systemd was remotely mentioned and many where it wasn't simply to evangelize on behalf of it.

As I've repeatedly said in the past... I don't care if people want to use systemd, more power to you. Where I care is when systemd or its proponents insist that I MUST use systemd.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 8:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ulenrich wrote:
saellaven wrote:
you don't act in good faith and you were here to troll

as I just stated above: confess or respectfully ignore ....


and how does your post here add to the conversation versus simply existing to try to inflame things to get us off topic?

TomWij and I went round and round for a week a couple months ago where he kept trying to play linguistic games rather than have an actual debate of merit... and he not only did it with me, but a half dozen other people. It is my opinion that he wasn't acting in good faith and I've generally ignored almost every post he's made since because of it. If you didn't witness the altercation, then maybe you shouldn't be speaking of what you don't know and if you did, well, again, how is this post of yours in any way constructive?
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PaulBredbury
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 8:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey, this is my thread you're hijacking! Go make your own thread to fight in :evil:

Know what this thread needs? Moderators doing what they're supposed to, banning the trolls. This thread seems to attract them like flypaper, conveniently :?

Edit: I have an idea. Every time someone trolls regarding systemd, they get banned until they've submitted an ebuild patch to bugzilla :idea:

That will force all these idiots to do something useful for a change. Revolutionary, yes?
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 9:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

saellaven wrote:
ulenrich wrote:
saellaven wrote:
you don't act in good faith and you were here to troll

as I just stated above: confess or respectfully ignore ....


and how does your post here add to the conversation versus simply existing to try to inflame things to get us off topic?

TomWij and I went round and round for a week a couple months ago where he kept trying to play linguistic games rather than have an actual debate of merit... and he not only did it with me, but a half dozen other people. It is my opinion that he wasn't acting in good faith and I've generally ignored almost every post he's made since because of it. If you didn't witness the altercation, then maybe you shouldn't be speaking of what you don't know and if you did, well, again, how is this post of yours in any way constructive?
I am on topic:
How can we live peacefully together.

TomWij sees linguistics as a scientific way to calm down in "objective terms of communication" as a typical social science student would try. But I suggest it is more fundamental: religion.

The technique of ignoring was introduced from your side. Don't you consider it constructive anymore?
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saellaven
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 9:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ulenrich wrote:

TomWij sees linguistics as a scientific way to calm down in "objective terms of communication" as a typical social science student would try. But I suggest it is more fundamental: religion.


Or it can cause more frustration and animosity.... which is precisely what it has done not only with me, but a number of other people here on the forums (in addition to reports of it happening on the mailing lists and IRC, which I have less first hand knowledge of).

I spent days jumping through his hoops only for him to ultimately say that he didn't even care about anything I was saying to begin with or that I jumped through all of his verbal gymnastics, he just wanted to be involved, seeing himself as some type of uber-liason between the devs on their pedestal and the mere users below. In short, it was all about him wanting to stroke his own ego.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 9:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

saellaven wrote:
In short, it was all about him wanting to stroke his own ego.

Everything a human does is about ego. If it serves to the community as well ... or was intended ...
Do you want no developer involved in our user forums any more?

Sorry I added one last sentence in my post above in the mean time you already answered.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PaulBredbury wrote:
*I'm* telling you this, and just to be crystal clear, I'm actually on your side against systemd


im actually against systemd's current form. when they move udev stuff into kernel then ill be ok with it again :twisted:
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 9:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ulenrich wrote:
saellaven wrote:
In short, it was all about him wanting to stroke his own ego.

Everything a human does is about ego. If it serves to the community as well ... or was intended ...
Do you want no developer involved in our user forums any more?

Sorry I added one last sentence in my post above in the mean time you already answered.


See below

ulenrich wrote:
The technique of ignoring was introduced from your side. Don't you consider it constructive anymore?


I ignore Tom precisely because I find 99% of what he says to be useless and 90% of his posts in reply to me have been him deliberately trying to antagonize and frustrate me into playing games. As such, I generally don't even bother to read his posts and I've asked him not to reply to me since I'm not going to bother to reply to him, particularly because a couple weeks after his major attempt of frustrating me me, he attempted to do it all over again. That doesn't mean everything he says is completely useless. There's occasionally something in there worth responding to, and there may be more things, but given his previous actions, I no longer assume he acts in good faith a majority of the time, so I choose to skip them.

As far as ignoring systemd and its proponents completely... I USED TO. That ended the day that systemd's technical limitations resulted in the Council deciding to make my system unsupported because systemd wouldn't work on it even though I wasn't using systemd. As the saying goes, "your freedom to swing your fist ends at my nose." I ignored systemd and everything they were doing until systemd's proponents punched me square in the nose, leveraging the Council to do so.

As far as devs participating in the forums, more power to them... but they need to understand that everything they say or do reflects on the devs on whole, especially when they come here claiming to be a liason between the devs on whole and the users, and that's whether they're posting here, on a mailing list, in IRC or unofficially representing Gentoo away from Gentoo itself (say, at their non-Gentoo related job or school program). At no point do I or most other users claim to represent Gentoo, but people posting with sigs, forum ranks or @gentoo email addresses ARE proclaiming themselves as Gentoo ambassadors, representing it on whole, even if they are only discussing their personal opinions.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 9:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

saellaven wrote:
deciding to make my system unsupported

Get out of my thread, you troll. Don't come back until you've submitted patches to optionally support your system!

Use your energy to do something useful, you damned troll :evil:
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 9:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

saellaven wrote:
ulenrich wrote:
...
Do you want no developer involved in our user forums any more?
...
The technique of ignoring was introduced from your side. Don't you consider it constructive anymore?


I ignore Tom precisely because I find 99% of what he says to be useless and 90% of his posts in reply to me have been him deliberately trying to antagonize and frustrate me into playing games. As such, I generally don't even bother to read his posts and I've asked him not to reply to me since I'm not going to bother to reply to him, particularly because a couple weeks after his major attempt of frustrating me me, he attempted to do it all over again. That doesn't mean everything he says is completely useless. There's occasionally something in there worth responding to, and there may be more things, but given his previous actions, I no longer assume he acts in good faith a majority of the time, so I choose to skip them.

As far as ignoring systemd and its proponents completely... I USED TO. That ended the day that systemd's technical limitations resulted in the Council deciding to make my system unsupported because systemd wouldn't work on it even though I wasn't using systemd. As the saying goes, "your freedom to swing your fist ends at my nose." I ignored systemd and everything they were doing until systemd's proponents punched me square in the nose, leveraging the Council to do so.

As far as devs participating in the forums, more power to them... but they need to understand that everything they say or do reflects on the devs on whole, especially when they come here claiming to be a liason between the devs on whole and the users, and that's whether they're posting here, on a mailing list, in IRC or unofficially representing Gentoo away from Gentoo itself (say, at their non-Gentoo related job or school program). At no point do I or most other users claim to represent Gentoo, but people posting with sigs, forum ranks or @gentoo email addresses ARE proclaiming themselves as Gentoo ambassadors, representing it on whole, even if they are only discussing their personal opinions.

@saellaven
ok, I also see Tom in a double role when posting in the user forums.
Perhaps more than you: Don't you know there is a moral issue for him to not tell bad things about another peer?
If you have an issue with a decision a developer made especially if you suspect him of bad motives don't ask his peer!

Beside:
I don't think we should solve your issue in this meta thread, but remember upstream systemd claimed it is OK to have /lib/udev.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 9:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PaulBredbury wrote:
saellaven wrote:
deciding to make my system unsupported

Get out of my thread, you troll. Don't come back until you've submitted patches to optionally support your system!

Use your energy to do something useful, you damned troll :evil:


Why don't YOU do something useful other than complain that threads exist that you don't want to read? How much you could have gotten done if you weren't wasting your time with creating and monitoring this thread?

It's okay that people have opinions you don't like. It's okay that people write posts you don't want to read.


BTW - the patches are already out there (written by SteveL, not me), I've already tested them and contributed more information to it. It's not my fault that the Gentoo devs in charge are systemd proponents that don't want those patches to exist.
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