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jonathan183
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 12:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I also think there is an honest disagreement over the wisdon of using systemd. It feels as though the switch from gnome 2 to gnome 3 is being pushed in a way kde 3 to kde 4 was not. That's my perception of the situation, I don't think I'm alone - I think it's reflected in some of the posts on the forums ymmv. Calling people trolls is not going to help the situation, and changing the perception is not going to happen by a point by point dissection of posts and quoting out of context (not aimed at a particular individual - several people seem to use this style of posting). You can continue to do so for your amusement, but it's not going to result in a sudden change in perception ... and is likely to cause some resentment between individuals. Humor helps - and it makes me laugh every time I read the second post in this thread :P
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 12:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I feel this is in no way different than the switch from kde3 to kde4, time has probably cleared a bit of your memories. People are up in arms already because of the changes in the new major version, so when the old one is discontinued, unmaintained and finally about to leave the tree it is like a multiplier, so the same people turn up in semi-related threads and hash and rehash old and forgotten 'us vs. them' tales over and over again.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 12:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

genstorm wrote:
I feel this is in no way different than the switch from kde3 to kde4


The statement is true when only looking at having to swap from kde3 to 4.
IIRC, there was an overlay started up so that people that didn't want to update didn't have to.

The statement is not true, when systemd is figured into the equation.
One is no longer talking about just the desktop environment, but the underpinnings of the running system.
And one has to be extremely careful even when using minor gnome programs as it may force one to go to systemd.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think the problem is gnome2 dying, i think the problem is the force choice put on gnome3 users.

What do you think systemd users will do if to use kde5 they must use openrc only ? Just to see it's a false state, and kde5 can works without openrc...
A force choice to use openrc.
And as kde5/systemd users don't want to drop systemd, they now try to keep kde4 but the kde team make sure kde4 won't be able to work, not by letting it die by itself, but enforce that state by removing it : and here's the dilema : you are force to not use kde4 but kde5, but using kde5 you are force to use openrc and drop systemd.

Personally i'm still using gnome2, but i will go with mate, at first as i'm against systemd : yes for no technical reason really, even i have a strong one against it, but i just don't like the systemd politic of the one ring. It doesn't affect me that much, as gnome3 is a failure for me, not because of systemd itself, but the gnome3 politics (tablet interface for a general desktop, adding a force choice of pulseaudio and systemd, breaking theme on purpose...).
So even without systemd, i won't go gnome3, but i find legitimate that users that love gnome3 doesn't love systemd for any reason they wish and doesn't love how it is push on them when they just want their favorite desktop like it was before, using their favorite init like is was before.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 12:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This thread is not about init, or kde, or gnome or software at all!

Stay on-topic, or make your own topic to rant in Off the Wall. Stop polluting here.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 12:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PaulBredbury wrote:
This thread is not about init, or kde, or gnome or software at all!

Stay on-topic, or make your own topic to rant in Off the Wall. Stop polluting here.


Since it was split off the report thread re your whining. We'll do what we want. :wink:

Edit to add: whining defined as useless complaining about something that most would get over.
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krinn
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 1:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

this topic is named "The {pro,anti}systemd meta-kvetch.", so i don't think i'm off topic.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 1:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

krinn wrote:
this topic is named "The {pro,anti}systemd meta-kvetch.", so i don't think i'm off topic.


Well there is that, and the fact that his first 2 posts were about systemd. :lol:
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 1:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think my point was very well proved by the two follow-ups, even pulseaudio was brought up, and the 'devs making sure sth. won't work' lament. Cheers, bartenderbot :lol:

There we have two guys, both not planning to migrate to gnome-3, having either already moved to another WM or planning to use the advertised alternative that is entering portage right now, so both completely unaffected by systemd, yet they still go on about how it is forced on others, while it is entirely an upstream matter, in a semi-related (downstream) thread, thank you very much. ;)
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

genstorm wrote:
There we have two guys, both not planning to migrate to gnome-3, having either already moved to another WM or planning to use the advertised alternative that is entering portage right now, so both completely unaffected by systemd, yet they still go on about how it is forced on others,


And your point? :?:

Are you offering to be the new censor to decide who can post and about what?
Do you really not know what forums are for or how they operate?
Or are you applying for the job of bartenderbot :lol:

And yes, I take all these posts as simply fodder to laugh at, whether mine or others.

Edit to add: There have been and continue to be legitimate concerns being brought up and discussed.
That a few want to sweep any such bringing up under the rug doesn't make them any less concerns.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose wrote:
And your point? :?:

The very point that this thread is about, split off or not. ;)
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PaulBredbury wrote:
This thread is not about init, or kde, or gnome or software at all!

Stay on-topic, or make your own topic to rant in Off the Wall. Stop polluting here.


(To clear the smoke away:) What is the topic of this thread?
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This thread is about blatant, persistent trolling, that's ruining this forum, and wondering why the Moderators don't do some actual moderating to clean the forum up, so threads can be kept-on topic, without degenerating into yet another "Have I told y'all today how much I don't like systemd?" troll-vs-counter-troll snore-fest.

The trolls are in this very thread, spreading confusion and garbage, as usual.
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jonathan183
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Gentoo Gnome 2 user, while you were looking the other way we decided to make some changes. We like shiny new Gnome 3 which comes with systemd as an essential component.
I know in the past, present and future people will tell you to try to keep your system up to date, and we think it's important you try to follow this advice.
It's not our fault that upstream have changed to make systemd an essential component in Gnome 3, we know there are alternatives like Mate which you could migrate to but we don't have them in the portage tree yet.
We felt it was vitally important that we stablise Gnome 3 this very second, and we used the same slot as Gnome 2 - we could have changed slots and made life a bit easier for you but we decided it was too much effort.
Anyway - good luck trying to mask Gnome 3, there are enough users on the forums to try and work it out between you ... some of you may find masking does not work, our answer to which is you don't need to update your system and could stick with things as they are (hopefully you have forgotten about line 2 by now).

If you decide that Gnome 3 is not for you then you could always switch to Mate which isn't in the portage tree yet, you could add an overlay if you want - take a chance and help us stablise Mate.
If you prefer you can switch to an alternate desktop or window manager environment that is actually available in the portage tree now - good luck migrating your system users.

If your objection is to systemd taking over everything, then you are going to be in for a rough ride ... because udev is already part of it. You can try eudev or mdev if you like.
Please keep in mind that any time you discuss alternatives to systemd you can expect input from someone who thinks systemd is the best thing since sliced bread and point out you must be crazy to consider it ...

Normal service may be resumed at some point in the future ... you can trust us to help you migrate to the desktop environment and init system of your choice in future (provided it matches ours).

We hope you will join us for the exciting Gnome 3 systemd adventure!

Disclaimer - all similarities with previous thread posts/devs/forum users are coincidental :lol:
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bwahahahaha :lol:
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PaulBredbury wrote:
This thread is about blatant, persistent trolling, that's ruining this forum, and wondering why the Moderators don't do some actual moderating to clean the forum up, so threads can be kept-on topic, without degenerating into yet another "Have I told y'all today how much I don't like systemd?" troll-vs-counter-troll snore-fest.

The trolls are in this very thread, spreading confusion and garbage, as usual.


+1 Thank you for clarifying that, I agree with you; it is time to put an end to this joke, and get back to constructive discussion.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PaulBredbury wrote:
This thread is about blatant, persistent trolling,


Then why do you keep on trolling? The first two posts in this spinoff are nothing but trolling. Slap your hand and give yourself a timeout.
You, yourself are a part of the problem, and yet refuse to acknowledge that.


Edit to add: this doesn't mean that I and others aren't part of the problem also,
but we're not the ones running around trying to just blame others
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A difference of opinion != trolling...
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
A difference of opinion != trolling...


And neither is people discussing things. It may be tedious, tiring, and a whole host of other words and adjectives, but that's different.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For those people who think that a forum should be run only the way they think, with only subjects discussed that they want.
Here's a clue, there is some nifty forum software available.

If I became disgruntled with the way this place is run or unhappy with more than a handful of posters, I would leave. But that's just me.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose wrote:
PaulBredbury wrote:
This thread is about blatant, persistent trolling,


Then why do you keep on trolling? The first two posts in this spinoff are nothing but trolling. Slap your hand and give yourself a timeout.
You, yourself are a part of the problem, and yet refuse to acknowledge that.


Anon-E-moose wrote:
For those people who think that a forum should be run only the way they think, with only subjects discussed that they want.
Here's a clue, there is some nifty forum software available.

If I became disgruntled with the way this place is run or unhappy with more than a handful of posters, I would leave. But that's just me.


The forum is run according to the Guidelines, which include The Core Rules of Netiquette and additionally the Gentoo CoC; there are also General Guidelines for Off The Wall, which include political, religious, racial, ethnic, and other "sensitive" topics. You can see that various subjects can be discussed; this is as long as those subjects, as well as the resulting posts are in line with the Guidelines, Netiquette and CoC. As this is a "sensitive" topic, it is appropriate for the OP to ask the reported topic to be moved to Off The Wall.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 6:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BitJam wrote:
The problem is there is no general agreement on who the trolls are. IMO there is an honest disagreement over the wisdom of using systemd and there is an honest concern over future systemd lock-in. From your perspective, the people who disagree with you are the trolls. IMO it is the other way around. IMO your asking for threads to be moved to OTW and to have people you disagree with banned *is* trolling and flame-bait. IMO it is the pro-systemd people who are making the forums unpleasant. TBH, their rhetorical methods, bullying, and lack of respect are sufficient for me to dislike it.
This neatly explains why there have not yet been any bans over this collection of issues

BitJam wrote:
Maybe I'm wrong about systemd. Maybe it would bring great joy and happiness into my life. But just like in the fable of the Wind and the Sun, the more I feel systemd is being forced upon me and the more I feel that dissension is being squelched, the more I will fight back.

I do not like it Sam-I-am.
This neatly explains the general case of effective moderating.

In short, thank you.

TomWij wrote:
desultory wrote:
TomWij wrote:
The possibility that there might be contrasting interests does not mean people necessarily form sides, want to form sides or are on different sides.
Various parties associated with a single idea or interpretation of events can be idiomatically referred to as a side, whether they act as a collective or a collection. Regardless, it is the divergence itself which needs to be address, not how you prefer to label its various aspects.


If you label them that way, there will always be divergence; whether there is divergence depends on how you label them, it can be addressed by relabeling it.

desultory wrote:
TomWij wrote:
It can also be an effective tool in the opposite, serving a function which is evidently over-appreciated at times, at which point it is more inherently evil than aglets.
Making your counterargument to the estimation that categorization can be a useful tool is, effectively "no, because no"?


Or "yes, because yes"; because a coin has a head side and a tails side, unless the concept of a coin side is labeled in a different way.
A rose, by any name, still tends to respond positively to suitably composted bovine droppings when properly applied. Coincidentally neither the rose, irrespective of name, nor I react quite so positively to the fresh kind, especially when it is piled about with no evident intent other than to empty the vessel from whence it came.

The name, as the bard so neatly pointed out, is not the important part, it is the thing which bears that name, whether presented in the idiom of game theory, or as a Venn diagram, or in some form of hieroglyph. Call it whatever you like, there are multiple viewpoints to take into account.

TomWij wrote:
A troll is "a mythical, cave-dwelling being depicted in folklore as either a giant or a dwarf, typically having a very ugly appearance" (definition from a define:troll search on Google) which is going to be hard to find around here; that is the true meaning of that word, any other meanings given to the word are subjective applications (usage mentioned on its Wikipedia article) which are hard to understand given the subjective meaning that is rarely told alongside the usage of the word.

The solution here is to avoid bringing up the concept of trolling, as it in itself can be considered as trolling, or without using the famous word it can be seen as purveying misinformation. A more appropriate approach is to show how emotions are affected as well as show how a discussion went across the lines of the forum guide, as these things are addressable; the writer can clarify its intentions as there is now an understanding of emotions being affected, as well as that the reader can report someone who goes past good intentions.
Even in regards to terms as broadly abused as "troll", newspeak is at best a poor attempt at a solution.

TomWij wrote:
BitJam wrote:
I'm trying to explain why it would be difficult for the moderates to "ban the trolls". But, TBH, I do get the feeling that sometimes some systemd proponents are trying to stamp out the opposition (getting threads moved and getting people banned)


If this would happen, you can be assured that community relations will be involved into the matter; but I doubt it will, given the hands-off approach.
To be technically correct, you can rest assured that they would not be involved, just as forum moderators would not be involved in moderating the mailing lists or #gentoo, aside from those engaged in such projects in addition to their roles here.

PaulBredbury wrote:
Anon-E-moose is the "I'm only going to say this once, repeatedly" primary spammer. steveL (sadly) also has a ridiculous signal-to-noise ratio these days. They should have been given a posting holiday, months ago, so they can go fishing, or rant in the pub, or get a blog.

Then there are groupie trolls like 666threesixes666, who notice the lack of Moderators, notice people getting away with trolling, and so decide to do some trolling too, for the hell of it.

Others like TomWij go into pseudo-intellectual mode, and sprout off-topic nonsense which no-one can follow, presumably pretending to be clever. I've no idea what that's about, or why it's tolerated.
Overall, not a bad analysis, considering; though it is flawed. Aside from some dramatic license with scale, by basing your analysis on your perspective you have missed one who has, from their perspective, been inciting them. TomWij is somewhat clumsily more blunt on this subject. Dialing back the rhetoric would be appreciated.
PaulBredbury wrote:
The problem with the Gentoo forums, these days, is that we're not seeing the Moderators doing moderating, so the keyboard-tapping garbage-outpourers are *encouraged* rather than disuaded.
Moderation in all things, especially moderating. With apologies to Oscar Wilde. I would rather bear some evidently empty material being posted than simply silence those who disagree with me, or you, or the people you disagree with.
PaulBredbury wrote:
Look at the Arch Linux forums, in comparison - they actually err in the opposite direction, clamping down too hard on threads which contain a bit of trolling but which also have interesting technical ideas. I think they err by locking the thread, rather than just giving the trolls a posting holiday, so the useful posters can continue the thread, undistracted by the worst of the trolling.
There is a balance to be maintained, they have their approach and we have ours. We have a general philosophy of deliberately light intervention, unless and until it becomes necessary to become more directly involved. When becoming more directly involved in whatever sort of problem needs resolved, one needs to assess the situation, and at times the parties involved. Bearing that in mind, you could make a reasonable guess as to my reasons for being involved in this discussion.
PaulBredbury wrote:
desultory wrote:
I am passing out chances to do something useful

You're being so vague, I don't know what you're saying.
You could try reading entire sentences, and taking note of meaningful links.
PaulBredbury wrote:
A ban-hammer is all that's needed.
As you apparently have not taken into account, there is a reason for referring to it as a "ban hammer": it is a blunt instrument which is not to be taken lightly. One treats cancer by diagnosing the problem, then excising it if it cannot be controlled by other means, not by hitting the patient with a maul until the cancer stops metabolizing.
PaulBredbury wrote:
If you want a sticky, how's this:

I wrote:
Check your post, before sending. If it's on-topic to the thread, relevant and offering new ideas or information in a helpful way, then great. Otherwise, DON'T POST IT.
We already have forum guidelines, note item 9.

ssuominen wrote:
Unfortunately it has happened in a small steps, and I have to admit, I've been feeding some of the trolling, where I simply shouldn't have replied anything.
Thank you for acknowledging it, all I ask is that you make an effort to avoid doing so in the future. Bear in mind that you are hardly the worst offender in this regard, but every needless escalation which is simply avoided helps.
ssuominen wrote:
In the past, moderators stepped in-between before it was too late, but not lately. I have to seriously consider stop using forums.
Your contributions would be missed.

TomWij wrote:
Quoting yourself: PaulBredbury goes into pseudo-intellectual mode, and sprouts off-topic nonsense which no-one can follow, presumably pretending to be clever.

Disclaimer: Reading and interpreting this as if it would be stated by a random individual out of the blue, reconsider what its effect has on the reader; this post of mine might also have a detrimental effect on you if it misses this disclaimer, however, my intention with writing this post is to give you advice and considerations for when you want to pursue moderation tasks in the future. As with anything, it's a(n popular) opinion so take it with a grain of salt; I can be very well convinced that what you suggest works in different scenarios and in different ways, but am questioning it in the context of this website. I appreciate you weigh in on the discussion as a neutral individual.
Considering the discussion at hand, dismissing his commentary about you as "stated by a random individual out of the blue" rather strongly indicates that you have not been following along, and that you have certainly not been following your advice with respect to considering alternate viewpoints.

Consider your posts here and in various topics regarding systemd, and to a lesser extent other topics as well. You consistently attempt linguistic gymnastics that are evidently not quite within your grasp. You react defensively or dismissively to any criticism even to the point of asking for discussion of your social impedance mismatches with various others to be removed from public view. Probably worst of all, you consistently feed unproductive discussions, especially when they become circular or attract what others here have described as trolls.

None of that is helping anyone.
TomWij wrote:
Personally; while people might believe I want to kill topics (which is a side effect of locking), I actually like to see their movement become stronger as it can yield improvements that benefit everyone.
This evidently leads to negative side effects at times.

PaulBredbury wrote:
This thread is about blatant, persistent trolling, that's ruining this forum, and wondering why the Moderators don't do some actual moderating to clean the forum up, so threads can be kept-on topic, without degenerating into yet another "Have I told y'all today how much I don't like systemd?" troll-vs-counter-troll snore-fest.
We have a place to tell those who can split, lock and ban where problems have been perceived, it is evidently underused by some.

Naib wrote:
A difference of opinion != trolling...
Now if we could just get everyone else to realize this.

TomWij wrote:
As this is a "sensitive" topic, it is appropriate for the OP to ask the reported topic to be moved to Off The Wall.
Though given that it is feedback about how the forums are being handled at the present time, it will remain where it is, subject to further bisections.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 9:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

desultory wrote:
ssuominen wrote:
In the past, moderators stepped in-between before it was too late, but not lately. I have to seriously consider stop using forums.
Your contributions would be missed.

You're the one driving him away, and no doubt others, by such exasperatingly weak moderation :roll:

desultory wrote:
There is a balance to be maintained

Correct, so why don't you maintain it?
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 10:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have to agree, I have raised the issue w.r.t. moderation in the past.
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steveL
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Joined: 13 Sep 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 10:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow. Just wow.

WTF happened to you PaulBredbury? You used to be a decent forums user. Are you having some stress IRL or something?

Cos frankly, afaic you're talking crap. "What's wrong with these forums is.." "the moderators aren't moderating.." "people are talking about subjects I don't want them to, saying things I don't agree with." You really do sound like you've lost the plot.

Take a timeout, as you're burning out, imo.

There's always "controversial" topics: if there weren't people would find some to make controversial. Merge threads that come up on the same topic, by all means: just report them as dupes.

Failing to see the problem here: there's a few threads about systemd, so fscking what? People are saying things you don't like. So fscking what? Get over it ffs, I did a long time ago, and so did the rest of us, and so did you from memory of your other posts. Just take some time out, and come back to the forums in a week or two (or more.) They'll still be here, and all the usual suspects will too, making noise you don't like, but then you won't care. Believe me, it works. It's the only way I'd ever have been able to put up with the dev ML.

Sheesh. Sorry for "strong" language, but I want to get through to Paul, whom I've always respected. He'd never have a problem with it on a good day, and he certainly wouldn't give a damn about me arguing my point. Calling my downtime posts noise is fine: I'm really not that attached to them (though I would question why he keeps opening the threads which make him so angry: classic burnout symptom, ime.) So long as I can tell him he's off his tits with this diatribe. ;p
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