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ulenrich
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 Posted: Fri Feb 28, 2014 12:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Anon-E-moose wrote: | | Anyway, I had to run out for a minute or I would have added this to my previous post. |
Yes, you have to answer all the questions. You have to state all the things never said by anyone. All you say genuinely new. I sometimes doubt you is only one person who can post as much.
@Anon-E-moose it is this you see your "short comming" what we have a problem the recent months.
Last edited by ulenrich on Fri Feb 28, 2014 1:03 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Yamakuzure
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Joined: 21 Jun 2006
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Location: Adendorf, Germany
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| Posted: Fri Feb 28, 2014 12:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Anon-E-moose wrote: | It produces lots of problems in the real world, ie businesses. It's a bad technique most of the time.
That it appears to work for some period of time doesn't really make it right. |
You know, that reminds me strongly of HAL. 
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Anon-E-moose
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Joined: 23 May 2008
Posts: 6098
Location: Dallas area
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| Posted: Fri Feb 28, 2014 12:57 pm Post subject: |
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I don't know what you're carrying on about ulenrich.
You're one of the primary reasons that I bothered putting an ignore function on my browser.
You jumped in early on any thread that was about udev or systemd.
Started calling people, conspiricasts, luddites, nazis, etc.
That's all troll behavior. And you seemed not to like it when it was turned on you.
This is all the response that you'll get from me. Like it, don't like it, I don't care.
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Anon-E-moose
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| Posted: Fri Feb 28, 2014 1:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Yamakuzure wrote: | | Anon-E-moose wrote: | It produces lots of problems in the real world, ie businesses. It's a bad technique most of the time.
That it appears to work for some period of time doesn't really make it right. |
You know, that reminds me strongly of HAL. |
One of the people strongly involved with HAL was Kay Seivers (sp?) so it's no real surprise.
And IIRC, he was one of the ones that walked away from it, claiming it was too complex
and it was nothing compared to what they're attempting now.
I'm pretty sure there are some clever people working on it, and it may work and take over the world.
And it may be that it will indeed leave gaping windows like attack holes. Time will tell.
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Anon-E-moose
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Joined: 23 May 2008
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| Posted: Fri Feb 28, 2014 1:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | and attacking various developers |
I also meant to address this, I've seen it posted by a few in various ways.
I don't like or agree with some of the develepors habits and interactions on this forum.
If one wants to consider that as "attacking various developers" so be it.
I also don't look up to them as it they were some type of god to be worshiped.
They're just like everyone else, with good points as well as bad.
I'm pretty sure that my posting style and views cause some people to get upset with me.
But I don't run around going "boo hoo hoo, I'm being attacked".
I try and take things as they come from an adult viewpoint.
End of mini-rant 
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Shamus397
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Joined: 03 Apr 2005
Posts: 218
Location: Ur-th
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| Posted: Fri Feb 28, 2014 6:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Meh. I find it interesting that the pro-systemd faction conveniently ignores things, like how Linus Torvalds and other kernel devs are not comfortable with the direction that Mr. Poeterring and friends are taking Linux userland with their systemd putsch. And there are plenty of technical reasons to not like systemd, many of which are listed in that thread that Mr. Bredbury would like to bury (pun unintententional!). |
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steveL
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Joined: 13 Sep 2006
Posts: 5153
Location: The Peanut Gallery
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| Posted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 4:27 am Post subject: |
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| PaulBredbury wrote: | | I've been ignoring it for countless months, and countless pathetic systemd-bashing threads. They never end. |
So what? People will still talk crap on the internet. Hardly news.
| Quote: | | This used to be a good forum. But it's now just a systemd actionless-rant forum, and that's sad. I'd prefer to see the Moderators take a bit of action, to reduce the noise pollution. |
I'm all for duping threads if more come up (and to be honest I expected that to happen before now.) But not for just pretending the discussion isn't really a Gentoo discussion, or its somehow off-topic. It's not.
It belongs in Gentoo Chat though, not Other Things Gentoo.
Heh well you must be one of those anti-systemd haters then, and should clearly be banned as a troll. ;-)
(I wasn't actually going to respond in this thread til I read that gem.) |
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desultory
Bodhisattva
Joined: 04 Nov 2005
Posts: 9410
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| Posted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 4:59 am Post subject: |
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| TomWij wrote: | | Under the assumption that there are sides, you can have each side summarize their side, if that there are people interested in both parties; it is up to the reader to consider whom speaks right or wrong. However, such approach will lead into categorization, and make the rolling snow ball effect seen here bigger; categorization is fundamentally wrong as we are a community, so, this cocktail mixture of (mis)information just gets the community drunk until we learn from drinking it... |
Given that to assume there are no contrasting interests with regard to init systems, device managers, authentication systems, service management, and so on is to adopt willful ignorance as the defining aspect of ones perspective; if we are to make any sort of useful progress we must take such divergence into account as best we can. Anyone seeking useless progress should proceed to take suitable action.
Categorization is no more inherently evil than aglets, and similarly serves a function which is evidently underappreciated at times. Communities are rarely of one view on all things, rather the contrary, and categorization can be an effective tool in aiding members, and larger subgroups, of a community in finding other individuals, products (including software) and services (including web sites) which suit their uses, needs and perspectives.
| khayyam wrote: | | It might also leave you, like Diogenes, masturbating in the town square (as apocrypha has it), as again this search for the "honest man" has in it an impossible condition, and such a "light" is more a prop than any tool of enquiry. |
How do you know that was apocryphal? Were you watching him the whole time? Seriously though, thank you for at least recognizing that there was some manner of humor present.
| TomWij wrote: | | @khayyam: That's an amusing post to read. Congratulations on reaching 1337 posts; while we're at it, http://xkcd.com/1337 will be there any time soon... |
It seems 1332 is rather more fitting to the topic at hand, not to mention certain others.
| PaulBredbury wrote: | You're letting the trolls take over  |
Hardly, I was throwing down a gauntlet, fully expecting some user to pick it up. Only to be sorely disappointed by every single response missing the point of being encouraged to prove that somebody could write such a text. TomWij almost got it, when he caught on to the implication that multiple versions would likely be required for balance. Seemingly only khayyam realized that humor was being used in an attempt to reduce tensions and get some useful action out of those involved. Alas, it seems that in such matters only a particularly blunt approach will reach those "discussing" the problem at hand.
| PaulBredbury wrote: | To see who the major trolls are, look who is posting in this very thread  |
Believe me, I am taking note of who is posting here and how.
| PaulBredbury wrote: | Give me the ban-hammer power, and I'll silence a lot of the garbage, for you  |
You know our recruiting process well enough to know that getting the keys to that hammer takes some time. Still, I will take it under advisement.
Now that we have at least established who is willing to spend an inordinate amount of verbiage on the pros and cons of systemd, openrc, eudev, udev, partridges, pear trees, and mdev; or at least their take on others takes on it. Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to formulate a post fitting you perspective befitting a sticky as hinted at earlier and somewhat more explicitly hinted at by TomWij after some memetic probing. |
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steveL
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Posts: 5153
Location: The Peanut Gallery
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| Posted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 7:17 am Post subject: |
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desultory: you're way too subtle ;)
But I'd like to suggest a gentoo-philosophy forum, where you, khayyam and TomWij can lecture us to your heart's content ;p
Seriously though, I can't follow what you guys are on about half the time, and normally just smile once I confirm that it's the usual suspects pontificating, and I wouldn't mind having some of it explained in a more conducive forum (where I won't find it intensely irritating due to being in CPU mode.) A highbrow OTW if you like (I don't go in OTW unless I'm in a really bad mood ;)
It occurred to me when khayyam went off into an explanation of Chesterton's Fence a while back (I wanted to talk narrowly, he broadened it and lost me in the context of the post.)
(No, I'm not volunteering to write a position piece: I nominate khayyam, since he explains things better.) |
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666threesixes666
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Joined: 31 May 2011
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Location: 42.68n 85.41w
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| Posted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 7:32 am Post subject: |
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im loaded with pretentious words, and scoff also.  |
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PaulBredbury
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Joined: 14 Jul 2005
Posts: 7310
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| Posted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 9:56 am Post subject: |
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| desultory wrote: | | befitting a sticky as hinted at earlier |
I didn't say or hint that a sticky was a good idea.
This thread is *meant* to be about trolling on this forum, which had already gone on for far too long, *before* this thread.
Why haven't the moderators here banned the blatantly obvious trolls, so they stop polluting even *this* thread - a thread for forum feedback?
You're continuing to let the trolls run amuck, and it's sad. Use that ban-hammer. |
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Anon-E-moose
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Joined: 23 May 2008
Posts: 6098
Location: Dallas area
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| Posted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 9:57 am Post subject: |
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| desultory wrote: | | Seemingly only khayyam realized that humor was being used in an attempt to reduce tensions and get some useful action out of those involved. Alas, it seems that in such matters only a particularly blunt approach will reach those "discussing" the problem at hand. |
Bwahahaha, thank all of you for the laughs.
I especially liked the khayyam/Desultory conversation.
I saw what you were doing re teh humor, Desultory, at least as far as trying to break the tension.
Though I agree with steve you're damned subtle.
In a previous life I was an admin, and I know the work that goes into running things, even when it seems nothing is being done,
it's a thankless job for the most part and one I have no wish to ever do again.
My hats off to you and the others for your mostly hands off approach, one that I think is the best.
The scorched earth policy usually leads to a wasteland, IMO.
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666threesixes666
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| Posted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 10:35 am Post subject: |
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| hands off or hands on im fine with either.... im not fine with the arbitrary rules, with arbitrary enforcement. kazam says beating off in town square and everyone gets a chuckle.... i say it and i'd probably get reported by the whiny as if that resolves anything. |
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Anon-E-moose
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Joined: 23 May 2008
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Location: Dallas area
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| Posted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 10:51 am Post subject: |
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| 666threesixes666 wrote: | | kazam says beating off in town square and everyone gets a chuckle.... i say it and i'd probably get reported by the whiny as if that resolves anything. |
But that's the humor of it, that the one reporting it doesn't realize that they're really part of the problem that they think they can solve.
You've got to laugh at the absurdity of that line of thought.
As far as arbitrary whatever, each admin/mod does things in their own way, it's not like there's a hive mind.
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TomWij
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Joined: 04 Jul 2012
Posts: 1553
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| Posted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 3:52 pm Post subject: |
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| desultory wrote: | | TomWij wrote: | | Under the assumption that there are sides, you can have each side summarize their side, if that there are people interested in both parties; it is up to the reader to consider whom speaks right or wrong. However, such approach will lead into categorization, and make the rolling snow ball effect seen here bigger; categorization is fundamentally wrong as we are a community, so, this cocktail mixture of (mis)information just gets the community drunk until we learn from drinking it... |
Given that to assume there are no contrasting interests with regard to init systems, device managers, authentication systems, service management, and so on is to adopt willful ignorance as the defining aspect of ones perspective; if we are to make any sort of useful progress we must take such divergence into account as best we can. Anyone seeking useless progress should proceed to take suitable action. |
The possibility that there might be contrasting interests does not mean people necessarily form sides, want to form sides or are on different sides.
| desultory wrote: | | Categorization is no more inherently evil than aglets, and similarly serves a function which is evidently underappreciated at times. Communities are rarely of one view on all things, rather the contrary, and categorization can be an effective tool in aiding members, and larger subgroups, of a community in finding other individuals, products (including software) and services (including web sites) which suit their uses, needs and perspectives. |
It can also be an effective tool in the opposite, serving a function which is evidently over-appreciated at times, at which point it is more inherently evil than aglets.
| desultory wrote: | | TomWij wrote: | | @khayyam: That's an amusing post to read. Congratulations on reaching 1337 posts; while we're at it, http://xkcd.com/1337 will be there any time soon... |
It seems 1332 is rather more fitting to the topic at hand, not to mention certain others. |
Whether it is more fitting entirely depends on what XKCD 1337 will be. |
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desultory
Bodhisattva
Joined: 04 Nov 2005
Posts: 9410
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| Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 6:38 am Post subject: |
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| steveL wrote: | | desultory: you're way too subtle |
I have been accused of worse. I thought the whole "I, naturally, encourage any who can prove me wrong to do so at their earliest convenience." part was something of a hint that I was asking someone, anyone to prove the thesis of that post wrong, however tongue in cheek it was stated.
| steveL wrote: | | But I'd like to suggest a gentoo-philosophy forum, where you, khayyam and TomWij can lecture us to your heart's content ;p |
Pontificatus Wrecks does have a certain ring to it...
| steveL wrote: | Seriously though, I can't follow what you guys are on about half the time, and normally just smile once I confirm that it's the usual suspects pontificating, and I wouldn't mind having some of it explained in a more conducive forum (where I won't find it intensely irritating due to being in CPU mode.) A highbrow OTW if you like (I don't go in OTW unless I'm in a really bad mood
It occurred to me when khayyam went off into an explanation of Chesterton's Fence a while back (I wanted to talk narrowly, he broadened it and lost me in the context of the post.) |
A more technical, or just plain more highbrow, counterpart to Off the Wall has been considered several times, even just those that I am personally aware of, but has always stopped short of implementation due to various concerns, whether leaking, or dilution, or simply low volume. That, and it would be difficult to move a request for windows support into the "serious" side when it mostly deserves responses seeking the original poster's views on gladiator movies.
In short, there is some amount of obscure reference play going on, but there is also more than a little snarking, at least some past each other.
| steveL wrote: | | (No, I'm not volunteering to write a position piece: I nominate khayyam, since he explains things better.) |
That is somewhat the problem, I can think of several authors that I would seek init system /device manager pieces from, but they need to volunteer themselves, including some who profess to be interested neutral parties. Though, I tend to agree, aside from when he is being deliberately obtuse, though that tends to veer more toward the positive than the negative, usually anyway.
| PaulBredbury wrote: | | I didn't say or hint that a sticky was a good idea. |
You infer attribution where it was neither offered nor intended, ssuominen suggested, I hinted, TomWij dithered, then I outright asked for contributions.
| PaulBredbury wrote: | | This thread is *meant* to be about trolling on this forum, which had already gone on for far too long, *before* this thread. |
Funny, I was thinking it was about doing something about the problem, not just its mere existence.
| PaulBredbury wrote: | Why haven't the moderators here banned the blatantly obvious trolls, so they stop polluting even *this* thread - a thread for forum feedback?
You're continuing to let the trolls run amuck, and it's sad. Use that ban-hammer. |
I am passing out chances to do something useful, and rope.
| 666threesixes666 wrote: | | hands off or hands on im fine with either.... im not fine with the arbitrary rules, with arbitrary enforcement. kazam says beating off in town square and everyone gets a chuckle.... i say it and i'd probably get reported by the whiny as if that resolves anything. |
Anyone reporting khayyam for that reference would be essentially ignored, given who brought up he who slept in crockery.
| Anon-E-moose wrote: | | As far as arbitrary whatever, each admin/mod does things in their own way, it's not like there's a hive mind. |
Interesting choice of words.
| TomWij wrote: | | The possibility that there might be contrasting interests does not mean people necessarily form sides, want to form sides or are on different sides. |
Various parties associated with a single idea or interpretation of events can be idiomatically referred to as a side, whether they act as a collective or a collection. Regardless, it is the divergence itself which needs to be address, not how you prefer to label its various aspects.
| TomWij wrote: | | It can also be an effective tool in the opposite, serving a function which is evidently over-appreciated at times, at which point it is more inherently evil than aglets. |
Making your counterargument to the estimation that categorization can be a useful tool is, effectively "no, because no"?
| TomWij wrote: | | Whether it is more fitting entirely depends on what XKCD 1337 will be. |
While there is an xkcd for virtually every occasion, it is rather unlikely that the next one will feature pleas for utility, interleaved with pleas for sanity, interwoven with people typing past each other, intermingled with some of those parties grasping what little humor presents itself. If it does, Occam's razor would tend to imply that someone here bribed Randall Munroe, or that he reads this forum and decided to screw with our heads. |
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BitJam
Advocate
Joined: 12 Aug 2003
Posts: 2508
Location: Silver City, NM
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| Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 8:34 am Post subject: |
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| PaulBredbury wrote: | | Why haven't the moderators here banned the blatantly obvious trolls, so they stop polluting even *this* thread - a thread for forum feedback? |
The problem is there is no general agreement on who the trolls are. IMO there is an honest disagreement over the wisdom of using systemd and there is an honest concern over future systemd lock-in. From your perspective, the people who disagree with you are the trolls. IMO it is the other way around. IMO your asking for threads to be moved to OTW and to have people you disagree with banned *is* trolling and flame-bait. IMO it is the pro-systemd people who are making the forums unpleasant. TBH, their rhetorical methods, bullying, and lack of respect are sufficient for me to dislike it.
IMO udev has been, unnecessarily, a huge pain in the neck. IMO much of the design stinks. I think the format of the udev rules is very user-unfriendly. I think the udevadm command is very user-unfriendly. I think their choice of defaults often stinks. I sense a paternalistic arrogance to the design that I find repulsive. It almost feels like the UI is intentionally obfuscated (which IMO is not an uncommon problem). I don't like using that software and I don't want to use other software from those devs. I got that same sense of paternalistic arrogance when I used Windows (many many years ago). I've been designing software professionally for almost 40 years, often under extreme pressure with unbelievable deadlines. Several times I have almost single-handedly saved hundreds of jobs from being lost. One thing I have learned is that it is essential to make decisions based on gut feelings and clues such as those I described above. The more you can do that, the better chance you have of getting your stuff to work on time and within budget.
If you like using udev and systemd, that's great! We need to grab what precious happiness we can in our fleeting lives. I'm not trying to convince you to do otherwise. I don't think anyone here is trying to stop you from using systemd. I'm trying to explain why it would be difficult for the moderates to "ban the trolls". But, TBH, I do get the feeling that sometimes some systemd proponents are trying to stamp out the opposition (getting threads moved and getting people banned) and are trying to force people to use systemd as a fait accompli (Gnome3).
Maybe I'm wrong about systemd. Maybe it would bring great joy and happiness into my life. But just like in the fable of the Wind and the Sun, the more I feel systemd is being forced upon me and the more I feel that dissension is being squelched, the more I will fight back.
I do not like it Sam-I-am. |
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TomWij
Retired Dev
Joined: 04 Jul 2012
Posts: 1553
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| Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 8:50 am Post subject: |
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| desultory wrote: | | TomWij wrote: | | The possibility that there might be contrasting interests does not mean people necessarily form sides, want to form sides or are on different sides. |
Various parties associated with a single idea or interpretation of events can be idiomatically referred to as a side, whether they act as a collective or a collection. Regardless, it is the divergence itself which needs to be address, not how you prefer to label its various aspects. |
If you label them that way, there will always be divergence; whether there is divergence depends on how you label them, it can be addressed by relabeling it.
| desultory wrote: | | TomWij wrote: | | It can also be an effective tool in the opposite, serving a function which is evidently over-appreciated at times, at which point it is more inherently evil than aglets. |
Making your counterargument to the estimation that categorization can be a useful tool is, effectively "no, because no"? |
Or "yes, because yes"; because a coin has a head side and a tails side, unless the concept of a coin side is labeled in a different way.
| desultory wrote: | | TomWij wrote: | | Whether it is more fitting entirely depends on what XKCD 1337 will be. |
While there is an xkcd for virtually every occasion, it is rather unlikely that the next one will feature pleas for utility, interleaved with pleas for sanity, interwoven with people typing past each other, intermingled with some of those parties grasping what little humor presents itself. If it does, Occam's razor would tend to imply that someone here bribed Randall Munroe, or that he reads this forum and decided to screw with our heads. |
Given the mention of Gentoo in http://xkcd.com/456/ it might be possible; or maybe he was bribed (by our PR team or users or so) to put that in there back then, and it might very well happen again this time. Gentoo could be the most 1337 thing he can think off. |
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TomWij
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Joined: 04 Jul 2012
Posts: 1553
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| Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 9:39 am Post subject: |
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| BitJam wrote: | | PaulBredbury wrote: | | Why haven't the moderators here banned the blatantly obvious trolls, so they stop polluting even *this* thread - a thread for forum feedback? |
The problem is there is no general agreement on who the trolls are. |
A troll is "a mythical, cave-dwelling being depicted in folklore as either a giant or a dwarf, typically having a very ugly appearance" (definition from a define:troll search on Google) which is going to be hard to find around here; that is the true meaning of that word, any other meanings given to the word are subjective applications (usage mentioned on its Wikipedia article) which are hard to understand given the subjective meaning that is rarely told alongside the usage of the word.
The solution here is to avoid bringing up the concept of trolling, as it in itself can be considered as trolling, or without using the famous word it can be seen as purveying misinformation. A more appropriate approach is to show how emotions are affected as well as show how a discussion went across the lines of the forum guide, as these things are addressable; the writer can clarify its intentions as there is now an understanding of emotions being affected, as well as that the reader can report someone who goes past good intentions.
| BitJam wrote: | | IMO there is an honest disagreement over the wisdom of using systemd and there is an honest concern over future systemd lock-in. From your perspective, the people who disagree with you are the trolls. |
Disagreement is fine; however, without using the famous word we can say that things mentioned in the forum guide like "bashing", "personal attacks", ... are not.
| BitJam wrote: | | IMO it is the other way around. IMO your asking for threads to be moved to OTW and to have people you disagree with banned *is* trolling and flame-bait. |
Whilst the categorization of a thread doesn't affect its presence too much, it can carry a meaning with regards to it being perceived as about Gentoo or not; in this respect, I never ask either and even have explicitly stated a few times I do not want to see users whom I report banned. Reports I do are usually to resolve the situation, not its users; under the assumption that the users will eventually correct themselves as the situations get resolved. Of course, "resolving the situation" is as broad as the famous word; so, I'm going to be more specific, and tell you that this is about situations that break the lines of the forum guide.
(I recognize that I'm not the person you are addressing in this sentence; so, I agree that what you say still applies for some other individuals)
| BitJam wrote: | | IMO it is the pro-systemd people who are making the forums unpleasant. TBH, their rhetorical methods, bullying, and lack of respect are sufficient for me to dislike it. |
You can flip this coin around and see that this dislike leads to good intentions being interpreted as bullying; after that, "lack of respect", "unpleasant" and "rhetorical" are close. This perception then makes other users perceived as pro-systemd people; whereas some of them are neutral and want to address the situation to improve it, which is what I try to do. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you're on the wrong side; the coin has two wrong sides, and together they can keep the coin from balancing on its edge.
| BitJam wrote: | | If you like using udev and systemd, that's great! We need to grab what precious happiness we can in our fleeting lives. I'm not trying to convince you to do otherwise. I don't think anyone here is trying to stop you from using systemd. |
There is a world of difference between liking and using them; whereas pro-systemd is a label I sometimes receive, I just use it as long as that it work. And as long as things work, I just don't care about it as an user; now, I know that putting it like that will make me seem ignorant, thus as a developer I rather do care and want to see what can be done to ensure in the future that both non-systemd and systemd users will continue to be satisfied. Gentoo is a meta distribution, both choices should be possible; regardless how software is thought about, I've not ever seen a single piece of software banned from Gentoo...
| BitJam wrote: | | I'm trying to explain why it would be difficult for the moderates to "ban the trolls". But, TBH, I do get the feeling that sometimes some systemd proponents are trying to stamp out the opposition (getting threads moved and getting people banned) |
If this would happen, you can be assured that community relations will be involved into the matter; but I doubt it will, given the hands-off approach. I remember one user getting banned in one or another thread; but that particular user stepped over the lines of the forum guide multiple times, the "hands-off approach" isn't totally "hands-off" but it is rather just not "trigger happy".
| BitJam wrote: | | and are trying to force people to use systemd as a fait accompli (Gnome3). |
As there is more integration planned, which will lead to more broken things; this would get more truth towards the future, while you can still override the masked USE flag nowadays and have a mostly working GNOME 3 with some broken features like suspending or so, the future could provide a totally different experience. Upstream forces this down on us as time flies by...
| BitJam wrote: | Maybe I'm wrong about systemd. Maybe it would bring great joy and happiness into my life. But just like in the fable of the Wind and the Sun, the more I feel systemd is being forced upon me and the more I feel that dissension is being squelched, the more I will fight back.
I do not like it Sam-I-am. |
From the viewpoint of an out-stander, I've seen a lot of people talk about this; and I encourage everyone to address upstream about this, if the collective volume we have here (and maybe on other sites) send messages to upstream (systemd, GNOME 3, ...; their bugzilla, mailing list, IRC, ...) I believe that people may be able to make something happen. A small bit of noise for a big problem doesn't go unnoticed; it might get ignored or removed outright, but news sites, fora and even other users will catch that and it'll start acting as a downhill rolling snowball just like the discussion(s) are already doing so here on this very forum. It just needs someone that is very concerned about this to start this movement, petition, ...
You're Frodo. |
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SamuliSuominen
Retired Dev
Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Posts: 2133
Location: Finland
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| Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 10:15 am Post subject: |
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| BitJam wrote: | | PaulBredbury wrote: | | Why haven't the moderators here banned the blatantly obvious trolls, so they stop polluting even *this* thread - a thread for forum feedback? |
The problem is there is no general agreement on who the trolls are. IMO there is an honest disagreement over the wisdom of using systemd and there is an honest concern over future systemd lock-in. From your perspective, the people who disagree with you are the trolls. IMO it is the other way around. IMO your asking for threads to be moved to OTW and to have people you disagree with banned *is* trolling and flame-bait. IMO it is the pro-systemd people who are making the forums unpleasant. TBH, their rhetorical methods, bullying, and lack of respect are sufficient for me to dislike it. |
I'd give him a bit more credit (trust) to determine which is an honest talk of concern, and which is just twisting the history to advance their own agenda. I believe his track record in the forums should speak for itself. |
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PaulBredbury
Watchman
Joined: 14 Jul 2005
Posts: 7310
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| Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 10:46 am Post subject: |
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| BitJam wrote: | | The problem is there is no general agreement on who the trolls are. |
I disagree - it's blatantly obvious to someone who visits here regularly.
Anon-E-moose is the "I'm only going to say this once, repeatedly" primary spammer. steveL (sadly) also has a ridiculous signal-to-noise ratio these days. They should have been given a posting holiday, months ago, so they can go fishing, or rant in the pub, or get a blog.
Then there are groupie trolls like 666threesixes666, who notice the lack of Moderators, notice people getting away with trolling, and so decide to do some trolling too, for the hell of it.
Others like TomWij go into pseudo-intellectual mode, and sprout off-topic nonsense which no-one can follow, presumably pretending to be clever. I've no idea what that's about, or why it's tolerated.
The problem with the Gentoo forums, these days, is that we're not seeing the Moderators doing moderating, so the keyboard-tapping garbage-outpourers are *encouraged* rather than disuaded.
Look at the Arch Linux forums, in comparison - they actually err in the opposite direction, clamping down too hard on threads which contain a bit of trolling but which also have interesting technical ideas. I think they err by locking the thread, rather than just giving the trolls a posting holiday, so the useful posters can continue the thread, undistracted by the worst of the trolling.
| desultory wrote: | | A more technical, or just plain more highbrow, counterpart to Off the Wall |
This is definitely needed. "Off the Wall" is a zoo full of gibbering monkeys. Arch has e.g. "Topics Going Nowhere".
| desultory wrote: | | I am passing out chances to do something useful |
You're being so vague, I don't know what you're saying. A ban-hammer is all that's needed.
If you want a sticky, how's this:
| I wrote: | | Check your post, before sending. If it's on-topic to the thread, relevant and offering new ideas or information in a helpful way, then great. Otherwise, DON'T POST IT. |
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Anon-E-moose
Watchman
Joined: 23 May 2008
Posts: 6098
Location: Dallas area
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| Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 10:47 am Post subject: |
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| desultory wrote: | | Anon-E-moose wrote: | | As far as arbitrary whatever, each admin/mod does things in their own way, it's not like there's a hive mind. |
Interesting choice of words. |
| Quote: | | The forums project needs some assistance in the final stages of assimilating |
LoL, hadn't seen that one.
[edit]
Certainly there must be some type of agreement amongst mods/admins.
But how each answers questions, handles bitches, whines, tantrums, disagreements, polite requests, etc is going to be different.
[/edit]
Thank you again for the humor, you and all that participate in bringing it.
BitJam, I like how you put it, especially bringing up the fable.
_________________
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Last edited by Anon-E-moose on Sun Mar 02, 2014 11:40 am; edited 1 time in total |
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ulenrich
Veteran
Joined: 10 Oct 2010
Posts: 1480
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| Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 10:57 am Post subject: |
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| BitJam wrote: | | IMO it is the pro-systemd people who are making the forums unpleasant. |
Where? |
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SamuliSuominen
Retired Dev
Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Posts: 2133
Location: Finland
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| Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 11:01 am Post subject: |
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| PaulBredbury wrote: | | BitJam wrote: | | The problem is there is no general agreement on who the trolls are. |
I disagree - it's blatantly obvious to someone who visits here regularly. |
I agree.
Unfortunately it has happened in a small steps, and I have to admit, I've been feeding some of the trolling, where I simply shouldn't have replied anything.
In the past, moderators stepped in-between before it was too late, but not lately. I have to seriously consider stop using forums. |
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TomWij
Retired Dev
Joined: 04 Jul 2012
Posts: 1553
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| Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 11:31 am Post subject: |
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| PaulBredbury wrote: | | BitJam wrote: | | The problem is there is no general agreement on who the trolls are. |
I disagree - it's blatantly obvious to someone who visits here regularly. |
Quoting yourself: PaulBredbury goes into pseudo-intellectual mode, and sprouts off-topic nonsense which no-one can follow, presumably pretending to be clever.
Disclaimer: Reading and interpreting this as if it would be stated by a random individual out of the blue, reconsider what its effect has on the reader; this post of mine might also have a detrimental effect on you if it misses this disclaimer, however, my intention with writing this post is to give you advice and considerations for when you want to pursue moderation tasks in the future. As with anything, it's a(n popular) opinion so take it with a grain of salt; I can be very well convinced that what you suggest works in different scenarios and in different ways, but am questioning it in the context of this website. I appreciate you weigh in on the discussion as a neutral individual.
| PaulBredbury wrote: | Anon-E-moose is the "I'm only going to say this once, repeatedly" primary spammer. steveL (sadly) also has a ridiculous signal-to-noise ratio these days. They should have been given a posting holiday, months ago, so they can go fishing, or rant in the pub, or get a blog.
Then there are groupie trolls like 666threesixes666, who notice the lack of Moderators, notice people getting away with trolling, and so decide to do some trolling too, for the hell of it.
Others like TomWij go into pseudo-intellectual mode, and sprout off-topic nonsense which no-one can follow, presumably pretending to be clever. I've no idea what that's about, or why it's tolerated. |
Given that people's participation is labeled as "spammer" (which takes a ton more than what Anon-E-moose might do), "ridiculous" (it's kind of subjective; he's on a different signal sometimes, that doesn't make it noise), "troll" (see earlier) and "nonsense" ('cause there are better things to do); it is questionable whether you see the good in people or rather only see what you perceive as bad when you are moderating.
An excellent read on moderation, which is similar to the "hands-off approach" taken on the forums here, is A Theory of Moderation.
| PaulBredbury wrote: | | The problem with the Gentoo forums, these days, is that we're not seeing the Moderators doing moderating, so the keyboard-tapping garbage-outpourers are *encouraged* rather than disuaded. |
That's a good sign; which means there is a lot going on behind the screens, discussion is then also used for motivation rather than to become demotivated by dissuasion.
Personally; while people might believe I want to kill topics (which is a side effect of locking), I actually like to see their movement become stronger as it can yield improvements that benefit everyone.
| PaulBredbury wrote: | | Look at the Arch Linux forums, in comparison - they actually err in the opposite direction, clamping down too hard on threads which contain a bit of trolling but which also have interesting technical ideas. I think they err by locking the thread, rather than just giving the trolls a posting holiday, so the useful posters can continue the thread, undistracted by the worst of the trolling. |
Deciding which way a discussion goes is opposite to the "freedom of choice" a meta distribution like Gentoo approaches; Arch is following The Arch Way (Quoting their wiki article: "perhaps best summarized by the acronym KISS for Keep It Simple, Stupid."), thus they keep discussions simple and stupid as they act actively rather than passively.
| PaulBredbury wrote: | | desultory wrote: | | A more technical, or just plain more highbrow, counterpart to Off the Wall |
This is definitely needed. "Off the Wall" is a zoo full of gibbering monkeys. Arch has e.g. "Topics Going Nowhere". |
What is needed is the discussion steered on-topic, instead of acknowledging you can't keep things on-topic and letting history repeat; on our forums we're finally getting there, it just take a bit more thought and support. Recognize that this is your thread and that you have the power to bend its topic, which I think with the talk about moderation you are on your way of doing which is a good thing; if more is needed you can either do so by changing the actual topic in the first post, by keeping people interested in the discussion, ignoring those whom go off-topic, by a lesser extent by reporting those whom void the forum guidelines, ...
| PaulBredbury wrote: | | desultory wrote: | | I am passing out chances to do something useful |
You're being so vague, I don't know what you're saying. A ban-hammer is all that's needed. |
If we'd use a ban-hammer more often, Gentoo could have lost a lot of its useful contributors; thinking about the action is vague, thinking about the consequences is where it is at.
| PaulBredbury wrote: | If you want a sticky, how's this:
| I wrote: | | Check your post, before sending. If it's on-topic to the thread, relevant and offering new ideas or information in a helpful way, then great. Otherwise, DON'T POST IT. |
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Try "Offer helpful information relevant to the topic of the thread". |
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