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Shamus397
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 11, 2014 3:56 pm    Post subject: The Politics of systemd Reply with quote

Starting with some observations:

If you've been following the Linux Action Show for any length of time, you'll know that Chris Fisher, one of the hosts of LAS, is heavily promoting the adoption of systemd and in the "outtakes" of the latest show, (episode #299) was giving some of his reasons why having Debian choose to go with systemd was a good thing for Linux. Personally, I felt that all of the reasons he gave were pretty weak and did not require systemd (they included mainly cgroups & socket activation).

Now Mr. Fisher is an Arch user, so it's no surprise that he's on board with systemd. But I noticed something strange go on with Mr. Fisher recently. In a fairly recent episode they did a review of Gnome 3.10 (as a part of Fedora 20) and they were quite underwhelmed with what it had to offer--to me it felt like it was an honest review. But two weeks later, Mr. Fisher did an about-face and followed up with an episode titled "In Defense of Gnome 3" and decided that he was going to start using Gnome exclusively, after having been a long time KDE user.

Now this is just wild assed speculation on my part, but it seems to me that what happened was that Mr. Fisher realized that Gnome 3.10 was heavily reliant on systemd, and that if systemd adoption was going to go anywhere, he had to do an about face on his stance on Gnome, no matter how bad it was (he was also doing some cheerleading in the outtakes of the new and rather lackluster Gnome apps). Shows like the Linux Action Show shape popular opinion in and outside of the Linux community, and I seriously doubt that Mr. Fisher's repentance towards Gnome 3.10 was accidental.

What strikes me as strange is all this push towards getting Debian to use systemd as its init system. Leaving aside the fact that systemd is anything but a simple init replacement, it seems to me that what's happening there has more to do with politics than with technical superiority, as their choice is being forced on them by the Gnome developers who have embraced and tied their desktop to systemd.

So what does any of this have to do with Gentoo? Well, for starters, if every other distro goes and drinks the systemd Kool-aide, what choice does Gentoo have but to follow, especially if crucial parts of the system are no longer developed because they've been assimilated into systemd (like udev was)? It's already happening in Funtoo, they are being forced by systemd to create an alternate distro based on it so that Gnome users will be able to use Funtoo.

All of this would be moot if systemd was just a simple init replacement. But it isn't. Adoption isn't happening because systemd is technically superior, it's happening because of simple power plays by actors who don't care about anyone's agenda but their own and their legion of fans who shout down anyone who doesn't like the direction they're being taken.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 11, 2014 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr. Fisher probably needs a poor cliff hanger to keep his audience :(

Also Kde will go direction systemd:
https://plus.google.com/+MartinGr%C3%A4%C3%9Flin/posts/GMtZrNCeaLD

Debian did technically discuss:
http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=727708
https://lists.debian.org/debian-ctte/2013/12/threads.html
https://lists.debian.org/debian-ctte/2014/01/threads.html
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 11, 2014 7:15 pm    Post subject: Re: The Politics of systemd Reply with quote

Shamus397 wrote:
what choice does Gentoo have but to follow

No, PATCH it out. There's far, far too much hot air about systemd, versus useful code/patches/ebuilds.

Personally, I switched to busybox, it is/was fun :)
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 11, 2014 11:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shamus397,

Olde Fashioned Gentooee works for me and it boots in only 40% of the time of a udev based system.
The install is a bit ugly - I need to do a set of stages.
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Shamus397
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 3:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That post by Martin Gräßlin highlights exactly whats wrong with the forcing of systemd everywhere: he says that because systemd is a politically charged topic that he can ignore anyone who is against it, regardless of whether or not their arguments have any merit.

That alone should be cause for rejecting systemd outright--technical reasons for adopting systemd are A-OK!, but technical reasons for rejecting systemd? GTFO, you're just a whiny baby who has to be dragged kicking and screaming into the glorious systemd future we have prepared for you! :P

And the lack of clue on the part of those supporting is telling. For example, Mr. Gräßlin said:
Quote:
it would not force anyone to use systemd as the init system. It forces to use parts of systemd, but one can still use openrc or sysVinit as the init system. It's important to separate those things.


But as someone else on that post pointed out, this is foolishness as systemd is an all or nothing proposition:
Quote:
I am heavily confident that to use systemd as a session init (as you describe) requires that systemd is PID1. Please double check before requiring systemd for kde's session on Wayland. Edit: yes, it will req that systemd is PID 1. Just confirmed with someone on #systemd.


Patching around systemd seems to be a mixed bag so far, as eudev seems to have mitigated the problems introduced by the LP & Co., but attempts to create a replacement for logind were met with the systemd devs deliberately breaking it. So much for modularity eh? :P And I'm not sure how you can patch around the PID 1 issue.

And the Debian folks can debate until the cows come home, but they really have no choice in the matter--not if they want to support Gnome 3.10+. Gnome is being used as the stick to force systemd on everyone. This is the only reason that Funtoo has made its alternate distro.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 5:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What software could we expect to become dependent on systemd?

You already mentioned udev and Gnome3. Redhat really starts seeming like a typical business more and more. They shit out a piece of software, a lot of people don't like it, it creates dev stress now having to support multiple implementations, and the end result is buggier software and lower quality for Linux as a whole.

The problem with Redhat is is that they just keep pushing it out, and try to force it "my way or the highway" style. They act like they're not in the wrong because their way is the only one true way, when in reality them childishly going against decades of standards and making a lot of people pissed off, causes nothing but fragmentation, stress on devs to work with multiple implementations, bugs and security vulnerabilities from having to do that, incompatibilities, and lower overall quality for Linux as a whole.

If they don't like a piece of software, they have a bad habit of creating their own thing instead of improving the original software. When the problems I'm talking about arise from that, instead of blaming themselves for needlessly and constantly stirring the shit so badly, they act like it's everyone else's fault for not just using their product and not even giving the choice to use anything else, which is what they want.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 12:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NeddySeagoon wrote:
Olde Fashioned Gentooee works for me and it boots in only 40% of the time of a udev based system.

PARTUUID is a godsend for boot without initramfs or relying on a specific device node. Works in the obvious manner for GPT (be sure to get the GUID from the partition table, not the UUID from the filesystem), but also works in the form of XXXXXX-YY for MBR (where XXXXXX is the MBR identifier from, i.e., fdisk -l, and YY is the partition number with a leading zero if necessary). You can, of course, continue to use filesystem UUIDs in the fstab, even for the root partition, without issue.

I'm a bit sad that I can't effectively use true olde Gentoo on most of my machines, because I do somewhat miss those days... Too many things depend on at least udev to either work or be convenient. At least udev/eudev are the least objectionable parts of 'modern' Linux, and I can still skip pulseaudio, systemd, consolekit, polkit+javascript (?!), and even PAM. Might give it a go on a VPS I have, though, as that thing never needs, or can even use, device node changes.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Check this post on phoronix. http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTYwMzg It seems systemd has hit its first vulnerability. Comment 83 of this bug mentions this: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1043212#c83


--cyberjun
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 2:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NeddySeagoon wrote:
Olde Fashioned Gentooee works for me and it boots in only 40% of the time of a udev based system.
The install is a bit ugly - I need to do a set of stages.

Interesting article. One thing that caught my eye was things warning:
Quote:
Warning: The kernel cannot mount root by UUID unless you use the userspace mount command, which requires and initramfs

I partitioned with GPT, set the legacy_boot flag on my /boot partition and used syslinux as my bootloader. This lets me use root=PARTUUID=xxx as a boot parameter. It works without need of an initrd to do the mount. This feature is documented in the kernel tree in Documentation/kernel-parameters.txt and init/do_mounts.c.

The partuuid is different from the uuid:
Code:
# blkid /dev/sdb1
/dev/sdb1: LABEL="boot" UUID="2c931af1-9e15-4722-93b0-f7e6386d4585" TYPE="ext3" PARTLABEL="boot" PARTUUID="48e65417-a018-4629-b2d3-69138a64e7be"

Maybe GPT is not considered to be Olde Schoole, but it is still nice to be able to specify the root device this way without the need of an initrd.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 12:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BitJam,

For recent kernels, PARTUUID works on MSDOS partitions too.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NeddySeagoon wrote:
BitJam,

For recent kernels, PARTUUID works on MSDOS partitions too.


When was that? I was doing a new Hardened Gentoo install late last year, and had to move a disk to GPT in order to get PARTUUID.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

depontius,

From about 3.6.10 or 3.6.11
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

More politics: In Mr. Bethencourt's (a KDE developer) blog post here, we have him saying that systemd should persevere because of "attacks" against systemd. He even admits that he has no technical reason to support it:
Quote:
I cannot judge from a technical perspective if systemd is a step forward, one of those architectural changes that we all will regret or a very expensive road before getting a good solution. This post is not about technical evaluations or predictions. This post is about me believing that Free Software is still (also) about innovation, not just in new areas, but in those aspects that brought us here too.

So never mind all of the reasons that systemd is a bad idea, we must push forward, for innovations sake!

If anyone else runs across news items like this (which are about swaying opinion), please feel free to post them here! I'll keep posting what I run across here. :)
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2014 1:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NeddySeagoon wrote:
depontius,

From about 3.6.10 or 3.6.11


That system is running the hardened 3.7.11 kernel, so maybe I didn't get all of the correct options set. This is a "system in evolution", meaning that I'm planning on buying more drives for it in the future. So everything is accessed by UUID. It's also got a RAID-1 set, and for those drives I used GPT, then specified by PARTUUID in mdadm.conf. Not a big deal - I'm more familar with MSDOS partitions, but since it's not my boot partition there was no problem using GPT for just those drives.
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Shamus397
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Linking my post in this thread, as it is relevant to the political dimension. Also, link to ridiculous bug by ulenrich, one of the people responsible for the label-them-then-attack-them-with-that-label style of "debate". Seems the rhetoric of those pushing SystemD has become more and more shrill these days, at least around these parts. :)
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 10:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

and kde may or may not go with systemd dependency, KDM is on its last legs i doubt it will make it to kde v5

http://aseigo.blogspot.de/2013/03/logging-into-plasma-workspaces-2.html
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 9:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Could people please quote relevant parts as well and not only tiny bits that help them raise an issue there isn't?

Martin Gräßlin wrote:
My idea so far is that a Plasma on Wayland shell needs to be brought up by systemd.
(...)
Of course a legacy startup will still be around to bring up Plasma on X11. So for the BSDs nothing would change. They can start Plasma on X11 without systemd. But everybody on Linux would benefit from using systemd and Wayland.
So if you *want* to use Wayland, you _would_ benefit from using systemd. This is an option, and it is absolutely nothing like "Also Kde will go direction systemd".

And in the comments:
Martin Gräßlin wrote:
Of course I am not interested in making anything in a way that it ties us to systemd.
(...)
I want to have socket activation and that's just not provided by any other solution. This feature will depend on systemd in practice but in theory any system allowing socket activation would work. And it will still be possible to just start KWin without systemd support - I will need that for development.


Don't count your chickens until they are hatched.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

anything Martin Gräßlin says is based upon kde using kdm as kdm is the project he works on, however the plasma team dont think that kdm will be the window manager for plasma2 which we will probably see around ~kde5

so concerning systemd and whatever window manager is going to succeed kdm its all hypothetical at this point.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

djdunn wrote:
anything Martin Gräßlin says is based upon kde using kdm as kdm is the project he works on, however the plasma team dont think that kdm will be the window manager for plasma2 which we will probably see around ~kde5

so concerning systemd and whatever window manager is going to succeed kdm its all hypothetical at this point.


As I understand it, Martin Gräßlin leads the kwin(window manager) development and not kdm(display manager) and from his posts I cannot see kwin disappearing any time soon. It seems like he has a very reasonable model, if you don't use systemd you lose new features but the window manager remains functional and should openrc or similar attain the required modules then it will enable all options to be used.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NeddySeagoon wrote:
BitJam,

For recent kernels, PARTUUID works on MSDOS partitions too.
I'm using 3.12.13 and in /dev/disk/ I only have by-id, by-label, by-path and by-uuid. blkid also doesn't show the PARTUUID . What's the added step to using it?
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

baaann wrote:
djdunn wrote:
anything Martin Gräßlin says is based upon kde using kdm as kdm is the project he works on, however the plasma team dont think that kdm will be the window manager for plasma2 which we will probably see around ~kde5

so concerning systemd and whatever window manager is going to succeed kdm its all hypothetical at this point.


As I understand it, Martin Gräßlin leads the kwin(window manager) development and not kdm(display manager) and from his posts I cannot see kwin disappearing any time soon. It seems like he has a very reasonable model, if you don't use systemd you lose new features but the window manager remains functional and should openrc or similar attain the required modules then it will enable all options to be used.


i was just going to come on and say i got my parts confused.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

roki942,

Code:
$ /sbin/blkid
/dev/sda1: UUID="9392926d-6408-6e7a-8663-82834138a597" TYPE="linux_raid_member" PARTUUID="0553caf4-01"
/dev/sda2: UUID="b6633d8e-41ef-4485-9bbe-c4c2d69f4e8c" TYPE="swap" PARTUUID="0553caf4-02"
/dev/sda5: UUID="5e3cadd4-cfd2-665d-9690-1ac76d8f5a5d" TYPE="linux_raid_member" PARTUUID="0553caf4-05"
/dev/sda6: UUID="9657e667-5b60-f6a3-0391-65e6dcf662fa" TYPE="linux_raid_member" PARTUUID="0553caf4-06"
/dev/sdb1: UUID="9392926d-6408-6e7a-8663-82834138a597" TYPE="linux_raid_member" PARTUUID="0553caf4-01"
/dev/sdb2: UUID="a5d62e51-ef8c-4b9d-a4cf-faf56dcaa999" TYPE="swap" PARTUUID="0553caf4-02"
/dev/sdb5: UUID="5e3cadd4-cfd2-665d-9690-1ac76d8f5a5d" TYPE="linux_raid_member" PARTUUID="0553caf4-05"
/dev/sdb6: UUID="9657e667-5b60-f6a3-0391-65e6dcf662fa" TYPE="linux_raid_member" PARTUUID="0553caf4-06"
/dev/sdc1: UUID="9392926d-6408-6e7a-8663-82834138a597" TYPE="linux_raid_member" PARTUUID="0553caf4-01"
/dev/sdc2: UUID="08f18d4d-69cc-4ff2-b85c-48da1935634b" TYPE="swap" PARTUUID="0553caf4-02"
/dev/sdc5: UUID="5e3cadd4-cfd2-665d-9690-1ac76d8f5a5d" TYPE="linux_raid_member" PARTUUID="0553caf4-05"
/dev/sdc6: UUID="9657e667-5b60-f6a3-0391-65e6dcf662fa" TYPE="linux_raid_member" PARTUUID="0553caf4-06"
/dev/sdd1: UUID="9392926d-6408-6e7a-8663-82834138a597" TYPE="linux_raid_member" PARTUUID="0553caf4-01"
/dev/sdd2: UUID="14ea0411-4e72-4749-92a1-1f9338bcf492" TYPE="swap" PARTUUID="0553caf4-02"
/dev/sdd5: UUID="5e3cadd4-cfd2-665d-9690-1ac76d8f5a5d" TYPE="linux_raid_member" PARTUUID="0553caf4-05"
/dev/sdd6: UUID="9657e667-5b60-f6a3-0391-65e6dcf662fa" TYPE="linux_raid_member" PARTUUID="0553caf4-06"
/dev/sde1: UUID="6896bc7a-a5ac-455c-a091-ddde1a3d5f0a" TYPE="ext4" PARTLABEL="boot" PARTUUID="11e282f4-2f24-4939-bbc6-ca3eabc15961"
/dev/sde2: UUID="qvttYQ-jlw7-pmla-SaSt-fdMG-Fi68-SsupfG" TYPE="LVM2_member" PARTLABEL="primary" PARTUUID="970cc150-3b48-4bcc-9740-4becdd423a2d"


I don't have /dev/disk/ at all, as I have a totally static /dev. That means I'm sure that blkid isn't getting any of the above from /dev.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 12:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yamakuzure wrote:
Could people please quote relevant parts as well and not only tiny bits that help them raise an issue there isn't?

Martin Gräßlin wrote:
My idea so far is that a Plasma on Wayland shell needs to be brought up by systemd.
(...)
Of course a legacy startup will still be around to bring up Plasma on X11. So for the BSDs nothing would change. They can start Plasma on X11 without systemd. But everybody on Linux would benefit from using systemd and Wayland.
So if you *want* to use Wayland, you _would_ benefit from using systemd. This is an option, and it is absolutely nothing like "Also Kde will go direction systemd".


It depend on Wayland to answer that : as wayland faq doesn't gave me answer to
Is Wayland systemd dependent ?
Is Wayland portable ? (if previous answer is no)

So to judge if an issue is raised, you must know answer to those two questions as :
- If wayland is portable : adding need to start it with systemd prevent linux users without systemd to run kde/wayland, but also BSD users. There's an issue as those users cannot run wayland with kde then.
- If wayland is not portable but not systemd dependent : Same issue but limited to linux kde users not using systemd.
- If wayland depend on systemd : only systemd users will be able to run kde/wayland. No issue raised by him.
Note that i don't know Wayland enough to be able to tell you if kde users will suffer from a big or small lost from not being able to use kde with wayland.

So from what he wrote : kde/x11 will still not depend on systemd, but kde/wayland will. So there will be no issue with kde/X11 users, but still i see one for kde/wayland users.

And : But everybody on Linux would benefit from using systemd and Wayland. : is just propaganda.
You can misinterpret like you have done as a "using systemd with wayland grant more benefits than not using systemd with wayland" because of the option. But he has state he will put the systemd dependency when using wayland. If it's a dependency it's then not an option and you won't have case of kde/wayland without systemd. He would have also turn it as "But everybody on Linux would benefit from using Wayland with systemd".
So it's just that, propaganda/promoting Wayland and systemd
"But everybody on Linux would benefit from using Wayland"
"But everybody on Linux would benefit from using systemd"
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 9:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NeddySeagoon wrote:
roki942,

Code:
$ /sbin/blkid
/dev/sda1: UUID="9392926d-6408-6e7a-8663-82834138a597" TYPE="linux_raid_member" PARTUUID="0553caf4-01"
              ..............
/dev/sde2: UUID="qvttYQ-jlw7-pmla-SaSt-fdMG-Fi68-SsupfG" TYPE="LVM2_member" PARTLABEL="primary" PARTUUID="970cc150-3b48-4bcc-9740-4becdd423a2d"


I don't have /dev/disk/ at all, as I have a totally static /dev. That means I'm sure that blkid isn't getting any of the above from /dev.


Neddy, what puzzles me is I get
Code:
 $ /sbin/blkid
/dev/sda1: UUID="D2E456A9E4568F99" TYPE="ntfs"
/dev/sda2: LABEL="sda2" UUID="7bb0e922-5aa0-464a-bb74-1fba6c19efd4" TYPE="ext2"
/dev/sda5: UUID="6601e331-4358-4274-b1c7-7e20b2681ead" TYPE="ext4"
/dev/sdb1: UUID="71995be2-4915-45a6-a286-1f40e0d2dc87" TYPE="ext2"
/dev/sdb2: UUID="9d488b26-f18d-4bcd-9447-6872ba1b8812" TYPE="ext4"
/dev/sdb5: UUID="yWsjYy-LVmf-nOwU-kzmJ-zGHO-WTLr-sKQuWs" TYPE="LVM2_member"
/dev/sdc1: LABEL="Boot" UUID="9b78e9fb-9781-405b-9665-03fe661260b7" TYPE="ext2"
/dev/sdc2: UUID="7cdd5f8a-824b-4971-b8aa-398ee8e8416d" TYPE="swap"
/dev/sdc3: LABEL="Root" UUID="c5ddc84c-c429-4662-ba0d-85e1d0792606" TYPE="ext4"
/dev/sdc4: UUID="mKGu27-v6Dz-3j5m-8fKW-0uAy-11x5-h6Mfh6" TYPE="LVM2_member"
/dev/mapper/dt00-Apps: LABEL="Apps" UUID="960320e4-e09b-471e-acbd-dc4174da5fac" TYPE=xfs"
     ........ etc
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mrbassie
Apprentice
Apprentice


Joined: 31 May 2013
Posts: 243

PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

krinn wrote:

It depend on Wayland to answer that : as wayland faq doesn't gave me answer to
Is Wayland systemd dependent ?
Is Wayland portable ? (if previous answer is no)


I heard a guy on a podcast the other day say that there's a "preliminary build" in the FreeBSD ports tree.
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