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TomWij
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 24, 2014 11:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shamus397 wrote:
Again, you're ignoring the point.


Again; the main central point in this sub discussion is "systemd and Linux are *fundamentally incompatible*", the main central point in this entire discussion is "The Politics of systemd".

The lack of a proof ignores his point, as well as causes political talk around it in circles by him, you and me; so, when do we get to the point that his main central point in this sub discussion is part of the politics?

Shamus397 wrote:
He didn't have a preconceived answer to the question. [...] And Poettering replied, "systemd is a suite of basic building blocks to build an OS from."


The preconceived answer is a full description that is simple; in other words, that is an impossible question which needs an infinite amount of time to satisfy its fullness in a simple way. Out of respect the possible part of that question is replied to in a reasonable amount of time, by providing a simple reply; the fullness is implied from that it could be more than just that, for which that a full description is impossible.

Shamus397 wrote:
And again, the point raised by Mr. Toppins being that the answer Poetteing gave has nothing to do with how it works with Linux and is so vague as to be meaningless.


That's why he needs to ask the right simple questions; or skipping the hard part, he has to do thorough inspection and give a right proof.

Shamus397 wrote:
The long and the short of it is, the main question was never answered. Again, the question is: "What role is systemd designed to facilitate?" Nobody from the SystemD camp has ever answered that question, and indeed, I seriously doubt that they can.


That's the whole point about it, the main question can never be answered and can never serve as proof for the main central point; it's set up in an attempt to indirectly do so, but given the cut in simplicity will not make the connection.

Shamus397 wrote:
Furthermore, I'm thinking that you don't have a really good grasp of argumentation, as you don't seem to understand English that well


You state that I connect things, I state that I disconnect things; it is simple and understandable, if unclear then clarifying questions can be asked.


Last edited by TomWij on Thu Apr 24, 2014 11:55 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 24, 2014 11:40 pm    Post subject: More gems, even if 3 years late... Reply with quote

http://lkml.iu.edu//hypermail/linux/kernel/1404.0/01488.html , Linus summed that up nicely, even if against the CoC here. :lol:

and...

this class act, https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=74589

Which is nothing new if you dig to see more examples of same from same in past.

Anyone who takes a very valid, not even rare, edge case and sports the attitude of go ahead and submit your 'fix' (as it's not my problem, bug, issue, persona, et. al.) needs a healthy examination from the nearest professional shrink.

Pulse audio is still a painful, buggy, thrown together mess and remains such. Too bad they're not focusing their energies in resolving that first.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 24, 2014 11:50 pm    Post subject: Re: More gems, even if 3 years late... Reply with quote

Navar wrote:
http://lkml.iu.edu//hypermail/linux/kernel/1404.0/01488.html , Linus summed that up nicely, even if against the CoC here. :lol:

and...

this class act, https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=74589


Yes, that's one approach to put the recent morphing to a halt; we should look into others to continue to make a barrier to contain systemd, to protect the ability to be able to choose.

Navar wrote:
Which is nothing new if you dig to see more examples of same from same in past.


We should make a list of those. :D
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 1:48 am    Post subject: Re: More gems, even if 3 years late... Reply with quote

TomWij wrote:
We should make a list of those. :D


Honestly, I just see that particular... 'troublemaker' as a diversion to the public. When the chips fell recently, Linus didn't even address him--as he remains a front for Kay. Sure, he (re)-'designs' some things to bring Windows to Linux (avahi, etc.). He'll throw together an initial portion, but then he's back to the usual sermon on the mount with a number of other people behind the scenes fighting with his initial code and bad design while he over-evangelizes in seminars, mailing lists, blogs, etc. Meanwhile the real key player remains out of view. Here's a great example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWux-PA6JCU For anyone often irritated by him, see how he handles audience questions (e.g. @17:05). Make note of whom he's addressing for the audience and the topic title.

I think some people lose sight of the history. Remember, "GNU is not Unix and Linux is not Unix."? A toy (that blossomed into what we have today) created as a sort of 'like' architecture to the originally large endeavor done professionally that was Unix to give something near in spirit to have multitasking on i386. The fact that any of it has worked over all these years is somewhat amazing in and of itself. Point being, developers are, technically, free to do whatever they like being Windows, Apple, Google, or Unix-like in design mentality. We're allowed to scrutinize it to death and avoid it like the plague (or fork to compete) before ever exalting it on high, however.

Obviously, it's not just how he writes. While I admire enthusiasm for projects and ideas, he reminds me more of the obnoxious sales person trying overly hard to pressure convince you to buy in. Years ago I thought it was just youth. Now I see it's a personality trait. He presents himself as more than a little overtly smug: The one and only. What are we breaking now., etc. The masses are, apparently, supposed to find all of this, somehow, appealing. His employer obviously encourages this behavior, and, given their marketing tactics, it doesn't surprise.

The problem is some significant people have been asking the right questions for several years now. And yet, wham, here it is, everywhere. He argues back in the same manner in support of the underlying theme I'm mentioning next.

@Shamus397, just to chime my 2 pennies in, his overlying concept point seems to be existing functional concepts x, y, and z are broken (to me), so I'm creating/pushing this to be the right way and systemd was merely the 'next thing' in line.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 1:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@Navar: That would be my take on it as well, and shucks, at that point, why not admit that you're trying to do an endrun around the kernel and call it P-OS? ;)
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It has been 4 years since the last release of sysvinit-2.88, hmmmm.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 12:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

warrens wrote:
It has been 4 years since the last release of sysvinit-2.88, hmmmm.


Not sure what you're getting at.

If it's not broken, ie it isn't working, then why would it need an update. :?:
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 12:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Any project that is not maintained will eventually die of bit rot. No piece of software stays perfect for long due to changes in tech, no matter how well it was written to begin with. Since the major distros have moved to systemd, sysvinit is not likely to be maintained.

FreeBSD is porting Apple's launchd to bsd, so even the bsd's are looking to move away from sysvinit. This means that there is nobody to maintain sysvinit.

Now this is pure speculation on my part, but I do not believe that sysvinit will be a viable option 5 years from now. Till then we still have a choice of init systems.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 6:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

warrens wrote:
Any project that is not maintained will eventually die of bit rot. No piece of software stays perfect for long due to changes in tech, no matter how well it was written to begin with

This is completely false. Actually, this is one of the main differences which distinguishes poor software from good software.
There are some exceptions like "file" which by their very nature need to be up-to-date with all recent developments, or some multimedia-software which needs to support new hardware or new video formats, but in the latter case you already see that this is because the current hardware and media formats are not yet good enough and still need improvements and in this sense the software is not yet good enough, too.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 7:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Say that sysvinit still works with hardware a decade from now, do you think that the upstream projects that we use will still write the init scripts for sysvinit? I don't think that they will. From what I have heard, writing systemd units is easier to do than sysvinit scripts. If that is so, I can see upstream developers writing systemd units and tell the users that run sysvinit to write there own sysvinit scripts. When that happens sysvinit will be dead.

Corporate sysadmins are always looking to make their job easier. If systemd makes their job easier, then there will be no reason for upstreams to produce sysvinit scripts. At that point us desktop users will have no choice to do anything, but use systemd on linux.

The biggest push for systemd is not technological, but rather psychological. People will adopt anything that they think will make there life easier.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 7:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's easier short-term, and there's easier long-term. The latter tends to be hard work, but much less costly overall.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 8:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hypnos wrote:
There's easier short-term, and there's easier long-term. The latter tends to be hard work, but much less costly overall.
True, but most people only see the easier short-term and are blind to the easier long-term. This one of the reasons people do not start their own business, and work for somebody else for their entire lives.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 8:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

warrens wrote:
From what I have heard, writing systemd units is easier to do than sysvinit scripts.

Then you have heard falsely. It is much more complex, and if you really want somethnig nontrivial (trivial things are easy everywhere), you can expect that your units will not run with the next release of systemd since there are permanently options added and removed.
Quote:
The biggest push for systemd is not technological, but rather psychological. People will adopt anything that they think will make there life easier.

I completely agree here. This is why you can permanently find lots of wrong claims about systemd from their developers: To convince people that it makes their life easier although actually the opposite is the case. It was the same with windows which pretends to be simple but actually is a nightmare for every administrator. It is the question whether there are sufficiently many skilled administrators who recognize what is actually going on and whether they are listened to.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

warrens wrote:
Any project that is not maintained will eventually die of bit rot. No piece of software stays perfect for long due to changes in tech, no matter how well it was written to begin with.


Bitrot (typically) happens when libraries are used and they change the way they work or the abi changes.
For simple programs that use minimal functions, such as sysvinit, which only uses libc, the chance of bitrot are next to none.
The reason being, if those few functions get changed, then a lot more than sysvinit are going to be broken.

The whole src dir from sysvinit are less than 10000 lines of code. There's just not much to it.

As to whether upstream projects will continue to write init scripts for sysvinit, I don't worry about it.
Writing those types of scripts are pretty trivial.
I doubt it will have much effect on sysvinit as it is.

There are other alternatives being looked at. Especially by those who don't care about systemd and its politics.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

so upower now needs systemd. so I can't have my kde battery monitor anymore.
Thanks Lenny.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 5:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mrbassie wrote:
so upower now needs systemd.


UPower 0.99.x does not need systemd; it has support for it, but it is not a dependency.

http://sources.gentoo.org/cgi-bin/viewvc.cgi/gentoo-x86/sys-power/upower/upower-0.99.0.ebuild?revision=1.6&view=markup

mrbassie wrote:
so I can't have my kde battery monitor anymore.
Thanks Lenny.


This is due to changes to the pm-utils and UPower packages that their relevant upstreams did; this has not much to do with someone else, but rather with the pm-utils upstreams developers no further developing pm-utils for several years as well as the UPower upstream developers changing the way the package is implemented (hence the 0.9.x to 0.99.x jump). Note that we have a temporary upower-pm-utils fork to mitigate this reimplementation; anything more than that will need people to step up to support it, or otherwise me might lose this support in the future. It is a simple equation: If one developers stop supporting a package, another developer needs to pick it up to keep that work(ing).

http://cgit.freedesktop.org/pm-utils/log/
https://github.com/VictorLowther/pm-utils/commits/master


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 5:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TomWij wrote:
mrbassie wrote:
so upower now needs systemd. so I can't have my kde battery monitor anymore.
Thanks Lenny.


UPower 0.99.0 does not need systemd.



Well, upower-0.9.23-r3 certainly tries to pull it in and that is a non-arch pkg. 0.99.0 is an ~amd64 pkg.

Code:
emerge -pv upower

These are the packages that would be merged, in order:

Calculating dependencies... done!

!!! All ebuilds that could satisfy ">=sys-apps/systemd-200" have been masked.
!!! One of the following masked packages is required to complete your request:
- sys-apps/systemd-9999::gentoo (masked by: package.mask, missing keyword)
- sys-apps/systemd-213::gentoo (masked by: package.mask, ~amd64 keyword)
- sys-apps/systemd-212-r5::gentoo (masked by: package.mask)
- sys-apps/systemd-208-r3::gentoo (masked by: package.mask)

(dependency required by "sys-power/upower-0.9.23-r3" [ebuild])
(dependency required by "upower" [argument])
For more information, see the MASKED PACKAGES section in the emerge
man page or refer to the Gentoo Handbook.


So it's not really clear "when emerging" WTF is really going on.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 5:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

upower/systemd can be blamed on LP/RH

But all the different DE's, ie KDE, xfce, etc can only blame theirself for taking the easy way out
and thinking that RH would always provide a neutral piece of software for their competition.

When DE's started depending on upower, udisks, gvfs then future lock-in was always a possibility.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose wrote:
TomWij wrote:
mrbassie wrote:
so upower now needs systemd. so I can't have my kde battery monitor anymore.
Thanks Lenny.


UPower 0.99.0 does not need systemd.



Well, upower-0.9.23-r3 certainly tries to pull it in and that is a non-arch pkg. 0.99.0 is an ~amd64 pkg.


Yes; so, UPower 0.99.x does now not need systemd.

Anon-E-moose wrote:
Code:
emerge -pv upower

These are the packages that would be merged, in order:

Calculating dependencies... done!

!!! All ebuilds that could satisfy ">=sys-apps/systemd-200" have been masked.
!!! One of the following masked packages is required to complete your request:
- sys-apps/systemd-9999::gentoo (masked by: package.mask, missing keyword)
- sys-apps/systemd-213::gentoo (masked by: package.mask, ~amd64 keyword)
- sys-apps/systemd-212-r5::gentoo (masked by: package.mask)
- sys-apps/systemd-208-r3::gentoo (masked by: package.mask)

(dependency required by "sys-power/upower-0.9.23-r3" [ebuild])
(dependency required by "upower" [argument])
For more information, see the MASKED PACKAGES section in the emerge
man page or refer to the Gentoo Handbook.


So it's not really clear "when emerging" WTF is really going on.


UPower 0.9.23-r3 is not UPower 0.99.0; so, wait till UPower 0.99.0 is properly supported and stabilized, in the mean time there is the sys-power/upower-pm-utils fork to use as a temporary alternative.

Anon-E-moose wrote:
upower/systemd can be blamed on LP/RH

But all the different DE's, ie KDE, xfce, etc can only blame theirself for taking the easy way out
and thinking that RH would always provide a neutral piece of software for their competition.


When alternatives haven't been developed for years; I don't think that those are the right people to blame, it is a natural consequence.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="TomWij"]
mrbassie wrote:
so upower now needs systemd.


UPower 0.99.x does not need systemd; it has support for it, but it is not a dependency.

http://sources.gentoo.org/cgi-bin/viewvc.cgi/gentoo-x86/sys-power/upower/upower-0.99.0.ebuild?revision=1.6&view=markup

mrbassie wrote:
so I can't have my kde battery monitor anymore.


cool upower 0.99.x it is then. I'm not turning my *nix box into windows.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose wrote:
So it's not really clear "when emerging" WTF is really going on.

There's even a news item now so there's not really an excuse to not understand the issue.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My excuse is I didn't notice it.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mrbassie wrote:
cool upower 0.99.x it is then.


This depends on whether you need the pm-utils functionality or not; if >=sys-power/upower-0.99.0 doesn't work out for you, you can try to switch to the sys-power/upower-pm-utils fork (see the news item).

The problem with such fork is that it will work as long as it lasts or as long as it receives updates through manpower put into it; kernel API changes and similar things can break such a fork over time, similarly the author has stated that some fixes may be backported but does not necessarily have the time to keep it working with kernel API changes. The only way such a fork will last is to convince someone to work on it again, as that fixes up the equation (see my earlier reply).
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

genstorm wrote:
Anon-E-moose wrote:
So it's not really clear "when emerging" WTF is really going on.

There's even a news item now so there's not really an excuse to not understand the issue.


A/o this morning when I synced, I haven't seen a "news item" referencing upower.

And as I said the non-arch version still wants to pull in systemd.
Which means running an ~amd64 pkg, for which you've given people grief before.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 5:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TomWij wrote:
Anon-E-moose wrote:
upower/systemd can be blamed on LP/RH

But all the different DE's, ie KDE, xfce, etc can only blame theirself for taking the easy way out
and thinking that RH would always provide a neutral piece of software for their competition.


When alternatives haven't been developed for years; I don't think that those are the right people to blame, it is a natural consequence.


Who else is to blame for laziness, if not the non-RH DE's.

I do remember when xfce provided it's own gvfs like functionality, and when they switched to gvfs. It's the same thing.

I stand by what I said, they (non-RH DE's) took the easy way out, ie depending on the goodwill of RH, they find that that goodwill wasn't all they thought it would be.
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