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wswartzendruber
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2014 2:02 am    Post subject: Dear Italians Reply with quote

What the fuck are you people doing? She already stood trial and was declared innocent. Now you've somehow managed to find her guilty while she's not even present?
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pjp
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2014 2:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If at first you don't succeed, try, try again.


Unless I'm misremembering, being present isn't required in the US either.
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notageek
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2014 2:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

She's a guilty evil bitch.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2014 4:22 am    Post subject: Re: Dear Italians Reply with quote

wswartzendruber wrote:
What the fuck are you people doing? She already stood trial and was declared innocent. Now you've somehow managed to find her guilty while she's not even present?
Actually she now stood trial 3 times and was convicted twice. But it won't really matter since I don't believe the US will agree to extradite her.
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wswartzendruber
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2014 5:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
Unless I'm misremembering, being present isn't required in the US either.

6th Amendment wrote:
In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence.
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pjp
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2014 6:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's more to it than that, but it does seem rare, and with somewhat contradictory information.

Trial in absentia wrote:
A similar holding was announced by the Arizona Supreme Court in 2004 (based on Arizona Rules of Criminal Procedure):

A voluntary waiver of the right to be present requires true freedom of choice. A trial court may infer that a defendant's absence from trial is voluntary and constitutes a waiver if a defendant had personal knowledge of the time of the proceeding, the right to be present, and had received a warning that the proceeding would take place in their absence if they failed to appear. The courts indulge every reasonable presumption against the waiver of fundamental constitutional rights. State v. Whitley, 85 P.3d 116 (2004)


When Can a Defendant Be Tried in Absentia? wrote:
Trials in absentia are exceedingly rare—most judges and attorneys will never be involved with one. The procedure doesn't jibe with the notion of due process, especially the constitutional right of the accused to confront witnesses. So, judges are careful to make sure that a defendant's absence is truly voluntary, rather than the result of foul play, ill health, or lack of notice, lest they create grounds for an appeal.

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Bones McCracker
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2014 6:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The right to be present at trial is protected by the 5th, 6th, and 14th Amendments.

However, the U.S. Federal Government limits that right, in the Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure, Rule #43. If the trial has begun in the defendant's presence, and the defendant voluntarily absents himself from the proceedings, then the trial may be continued. This is consistent with a long-standing U.S. case precedent: Diaz v. United States, 223 U.S. at 455 [1912].
http://www.law.cornell.edu/rules/frcrmp/rule_43

However, in this case, where she is being given a "new trial", conducting it entirely in her absence would be a violation of our Constitution.

Our Constitution has no bearing on what happens in Italy. However, being a Founding Member of the European Council on Human Rights, Italy is subject to its Article 6:
Quote:
1.In the determination of his civil rights and obligations or of any criminal charge against him, everyone is entitled to a fair and public hearing within a reasonable time by an independent and impartial tribunal established by law. Judgment shall be pronounced publicly but the press and public may be excluded from all or part of the trial in the interest of morals, public order or national security in a democratic society, where the interests of juveniles or the protection of the private life of the parties so require, or the extent strictly necessary in the opinion of the court in special circumstances where publicity would prejudice the interests of justice.

2.Everyone charged with a criminal offence shall be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law.

3.Everyone charged with a criminal offence has the following minimum rights:
(a) to be informed promptly, in a language which he understands and in detail, of the nature and cause of the accusation against him;(b) to have adequate time and the facilities for the preparation of his defence;(c) to defend himself in person or through legal assistance of his own choosing or, if he has not sufficient means to pay for legal assistance, to be given it free when the interests of justice so require;(d) to examine or have examined witnesses against him and to obtain the attendance and examination of witnesses on his behalf under the same conditions as witnesses against him;(e) to have the free assistance of an interpreter if he cannot understand or speak the language used in court.


The European Court of Human Rights has enforced this right, and the case precedent for them doing so is interestingly enough, Colozza v. Italy [1985], a case in which a man was tried in his absence by Italy.
http://swarb.co.uk/colozza-v-italy-echr-12-feb-1985/
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notageek
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2014 7:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow you guys know so much. So much more than the Italian justice system.

Ms Knox should have hired you guys and probably not have been convicted even once.
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erm67
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2014 7:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Apart judiciary problems the fact remains that she and her boyfriend did smoke so much hashish the day of the murder that can not remember what happened :-) That is always a problem .....
They might even be guilty and don't remember.
IIRC the judiciary treaty Italy-USA require that the sentence is recognized in both countries, she might appeal in the US, but what is she going to tell the judge? A girl was murdered in the next room while I was smoking hashish with my boyfriend and I don't remember what happened?
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Bones McCracker
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2014 8:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

notageek wrote:
Wow you guys know so much. So much more than the Italian justice system.

Ms Knox should have hired you guys and probably not have been convicted even once.

It's a tough case. There's a lot of circumstantial evidence, but nothing conclusive. And being a murder case, with a severe penalty in the balance, the standard of proof should be high.

All I can say is:
Quote:
American woman, get away from me
American woman, mama, let me be
Don't come a-knockin' around my door
Don't wanna see your shadow no more
Coloured lights can hypnotize
Sparkle someone else's eyes
Now woman, I said get away
American woman, listen what I say, hey

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erm67
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2014 8:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And the murderer (Guede) was their pusher, they bought hashish from him that afternoon, and he had a crush for the victim.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2014 8:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

erm67 wrote:
And the murderer (Guede) was their pusher, they bought hashish from him that afternoon, and he had a crush for the victim.


The whole case reminds me of Wonderland.
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wildhorse
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2014 9:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That bitch is an errant CIA agent.
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energyman76b
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2014 11:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

well, if someone runs away and refuses to take part in their trial it is their own damn fault.

She is guilty as fuck. She murdered that other women and just because she is an american does not make her innocent.

Besides, americans should be very quiet about human rights and stuff. Giving foreigners the death sentence after refusing to let them contact their embassies on time, don't give them access to translators and other heineous mistreatments.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2014 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As an Italian and and American I am glad to see this woman get convicted again. I say try her again after she's dead.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2014 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

energyman76b wrote:
well, if someone runs away and refuses to take part in their trial it is their own damn fault.

She is guilty as fuck. She murdered that other women and just because she is an american does not make her innocent.

Besides, americans should be very quiet about human rights and stuff.

..., said the German. :lol:
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2014 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

notageek wrote:
Wow you guys know so much. So much more than the Italian justice system.

Ms Knox should have hired you guys and probably not have been convicted even once.

:lol:
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notageek
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2014 3:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

:lol:
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pjp
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2014 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

notageek wrote:
Wow you guys know so much. So much more than the Italian justice system.
We were discussing US law.
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pjp
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2014 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
The right to be present at trial is protected by the 5th, 6th, and 14th Amendments.

However, the U.S. Federal Government limits that right, in the Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure, Rule #43.
I didn't find anything that rebuked the AZSC ruling, except a judicial tendency to err on the side of caution to prevent being overturned.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2014 8:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

notageek wrote:
Wow you guys know so much. So much more than the Italian justice system.

Ms Knox should have hired you guys and probably not have been convicted even once.


I've now this image of a monitor, on a cart with a tower underneath, being pushed into a court and being introduced as the defence.

When it can stop arguing amongst itself that is.
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energyman76b
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
energyman76b wrote:
well, if someone runs away and refuses to take part in their trial it is their own damn fault.

She is guilty as fuck. She murdered that other women and just because she is an american does not make her innocent.

Besides, americans should be very quiet about human rights and stuff.

..., said the German. :lol:


well, last time I checked Bush was still breathing.
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AidanJT wrote:

Libertardian denial of reality is wholly unimpressive and unconvincing, and simply serves to demonstrate what a bunch of delusional fools they all are.

Satan's got perfectly toned abs and rocks a c-cup.
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