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Bones McCracker
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 7:34 pm    Post subject: Canada sentences old woman for refusing to fill out census Reply with quote

Authoritarian-Collectivist Canada drags and old lady into court and punishes her for not obeying just because the NSA are the ones conducting the Canadian census.
Quote:
Justice Cathy Mocha dismissed the defence’s arguments, which centred on the violation of Churnin’s Charter rights of freedom of expression and conscience, as well as an unreasonable search and seizure.

“Miss Churnin deliberately refused to fill out the census,” Mocha told court. “It was committed deliberately, but I agree with your counsel that you did this on moral grounds.”

The judge took into account Conservative MP Tony Clement’s comments that refusing to fill out the census shouldn’t be met with a threat of jail time.

Defence lawyer Peter Rosenthal asked for an absolute discharge, but the judge disagreed, saying: “It is general deterrence to stop others from doing this.”

http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2014/01/22/79yearold_census_resister_found_guilty.html
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 8:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Canada sentences old woman for refusing to fill out cens Reply with quote

Quote:
Justice Cathy Mocha dismissed [...] rights of freedom
Hooah.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 8:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Canada sentences old woman for refusing to fill out cens Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
Authoritarian-Collectivist Canada drags and old lady into court and punishes her for not obeying just because the NSA are the ones conducting the Canadian census.
Quote:
Justice Cathy Mocha dismissed the defence’s arguments, which centred on the violation of Churnin’s Charter rights of freedom of expression and conscience, as well as an unreasonable search and seizure.

“Miss Churnin deliberately refused to fill out the census,” Mocha told court. “It was committed deliberately, but I agree with your counsel that you did this on moral grounds.”

The judge took into account Conservative MP Tony Clement’s comments that refusing to fill out the census shouldn’t be met with a threat of jail time.

Defence lawyer Peter Rosenthal asked for an absolute discharge, but the judge disagreed, saying: “It is general deterrence to stop others from doing this.”

http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2014/01/22/79yearold_census_resister_found_guilty.html


the census is mandatory in canada, though anonymous. It's a good thing it is mandatory; otherwise you get skewed statistics.

but she has a great reason for objecting. american fingerprints will be all over the data.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You're a collectivist-authoritarian apologist. Six percent of the Canadian population failed to fill out their census. The government prosecuted scores of them.

The U.S. government knows how to do authoritarianism: if you don't fill out the forms, they send minions to your house, and they keep coming and harassing you until you give them what they want.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
You're a collectivist-authoritarian apologist. Six percent of the Canadian population failed to fill out their census. The government prosecuted scores of them.

The U.S. government knows how to do authoritarianism: if you don't fill out the forms, they send minions to your house, and they keep coming and harassing you until you give them what they want.


i am cool with that.

if you don't make the census mandatory, the whole exercise is pointless. While your govt is collecting data on how to send drones to kill their own citizens, that data is vital for local and provincial govts. they use it to decide where to build schools, community centres and the like.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 9:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
that data is vital for local and provincial govts. they use it to decide where to build schools, community centres and the like.
*shudders*
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 10:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
BoneKracker wrote:
You're a collectivist-authoritarian apologist. Six percent of the Canadian population failed to fill out their census. The government prosecuted scores of them.

The U.S. government knows how to do authoritarianism: if you don't fill out the forms, they send minions to your house, and they keep coming and harassing you until you give them what they want.
if you don't make the census mandatory, the whole exercise is pointless.
The census is "mandatory" in he US as well. I have _NEVER_ responded to a census, and I _NEVER_ will. I simply don't answer the door.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 11:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
juniper wrote:
BoneKracker wrote:
You're a collectivist-authoritarian apologist. Six percent of the Canadian population failed to fill out their census. The government prosecuted scores of them.

The U.S. government knows how to do authoritarianism: if you don't fill out the forms, they send minions to your house, and they keep coming and harassing you until you give them what they want.
if you don't make the census mandatory, the whole exercise is pointless.
The census is "mandatory" in he US as well. I have _NEVER_ responded to a census, and I _NEVER_ will. I simply don't answer the door.


for some reason you don't like schools.

yeah, i know, you think your govt is out to get you. frankly, i don't fault you for that. it is a shitty govt. but that doesn't make them all bad.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 3:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
for some reason you don't like schools.

yeah, i know, you think your govt is out to get you. frankly, i don't fault you for that. it is a shitty govt. but that doesn't make them all bad.
Recent events have demonstrated that it isn't just paranoia. ;)

My choice to not participate is not because of any concern about being disappeared or otherwise "gotten," but rather because I believe in liberty. I don't believe the government should be able to compel me to act or speak. That the government chooses a poor mechanism for funding has no relation to whether or not I like schools.

To be more specific, the Department of Education is part of the problem. But that still isn't related to my like or dislike of schooling. My distaste of indoctrinating mindless drones gets closer, but has nothing to do my opinion of education.

And, no, I don't think government as a concept is all bad. Ours would be much closer to "not all bad" if it were decimated.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 4:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"The Census is essential to the Glory of the Five-Year Plan! Off to the Ministry of Love with you! By the time we are done, you will be begging to tell us what we want to know."

It's odd how corporations manage to be so efficient with nothing but marketing research, while the government can spend billions to get gnats-ass level of detail on ever individual and still fuck up a wet dream.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 5:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

They don't even have to rely on market research. They can just rely on usage and data they already have.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 10:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
"The Census is essential to the Glory of the Five-Year Plan! Off to the Ministry of Love with you! By the time we are done, you will be begging to tell us what we want to know."

It's odd how corporations manage to be so efficient with nothing but marketing research, while the government can spend billions to get gnats-ass level of detail on ever individual and still fuck up a wet dream.


corporations can be efficient for many reasons, only one is that they are "better". Price pressure and competition does drive innovation.

But another reason why corporations are efficient is that they have far less responsibility. they don't have to deal with things as disparate as building schools, pools and sewers.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 10:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
juniper wrote:
for some reason you don't like schools.

yeah, i know, you think your govt is out to get you. frankly, i don't fault you for that. it is a shitty govt. but that doesn't make them all bad.
Recent events have demonstrated that it isn't just paranoia. ;)

My choice to not participate is not because of any concern about being disappeared or otherwise "gotten," but rather because I believe in liberty. I don't believe the government should be able to compel me to act or speak. That the government chooses a poor mechanism for funding has no relation to whether or not I like schools.

To be more specific, the Department of Education is part of the problem. But that still isn't related to my like or dislike of schooling. My distaste of indoctrinating mindless drones gets closer, but has nothing to do my opinion of education.

And, no, I don't think government as a concept is all bad. Ours would be much closer to "not all bad" if it were decimated.


unfortunately, the drive to smaller govt isn't working for you guys. You just get shittier govt.

I am getting convinced that your country is simply too big to have a national govt. there are many examples of excellent govt out there, but many of those are for smaller countries (scandinavia, switzerland, singapore, and to a lesser extent Canada), but they are much smaller populations.

in any case, you either scrap the census, are you make it mandatory. there is no middle ground.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
BoneKracker wrote:
"The Census is essential to the Glory of the Five-Year Plan! Off to the Ministry of Love with you! By the time we are done, you will be begging to tell us what we want to know."

It's odd how corporations manage to be so efficient with nothing but marketing research, while the government can spend billions to get gnats-ass level of detail on ever individual and still fuck up a wet dream.


corporations can be efficient for many reasons, only one is that they are "better". Price pressure and competition does drive innovation.

But another reason why corporations are efficient is that they have far less responsibility. they don't have to deal with things as disparate as building schools, pools and sewers.

Neither does the Federal Government. The real reason the Federal Government needs census data is to support their authoritarian-collectivist schemes of social engineering.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
unfortunately, the drive to smaller govt isn't working for you guys. You just get shittier govt.

I am getting convinced that your country is simply too big to have a national govt. there are many examples of excellent govt out there, but many of those are for smaller countries (scandinavia, switzerland, singapore, and to a lesser extent Canada), but they are much smaller populations.
Since trying humongous, we haven't tried smaller government. I don't know that it is too big for a national government, but I think a large national government is inefficient.

juniper wrote:
in any case, you either scrap the census, are you make it mandatory. there is no middle ground.
Since I'm in favor of smaller government, and eliminating waste in any size government, then it should be scrapped. In the meantime, I will continue to exercise what I believe is my right to not participate in a mandatory census (technically I don't think that has been challenged... there is a mandate for the census to be taken, but I don't think it is clear if it is mandatory to provide information).
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
unfortunately, the drive to smaller govt isn't working for you guys. You just get shittier govt.

I am getting convinced that your country is simply too big to have a national govt. there are many examples of excellent govt out there, but many of those are for smaller countries (scandinavia, switzerland, singapore, and to a lesser extent Canada), but they are much smaller populations.

This is what we have state governments for, but too much power has been gradually centralized at the Federal level. We need to reverse that trend, and I see indicators that it is happening (for example, under Maobama, states have begun flagrantly violating Federal law and funding extortion).

juniper wrote:
in any case, you either scrap the census, are you make it mandatory. there is no middle ground.

Typical black-and-white authoritarian thinking. The truth is that they only need about a 5% sample to get reliably accurate general results (for the kinds of things you spoke of). The truth is that the census is a jobs program and an authoritarian tool to collect data on all individuals for purposes of control.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Census totally wasn't used to round up Japanese citizens during WW2 right?
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 7:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tylerwylie wrote:
The Census totally wasn't used to round up Japanese citizens during WW2 right?


++

A great reason to avoid the census.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

With the NSA, there's no need for the census, or worrying about census data being used for internment. There's also little risk of Obama actually doing anything politically incorrect which could be viewed as directed at a minority group or one of its members.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 9:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are many types of "minority" group other than racial.

Look at what he has already done to attack outspoken conservatives trying to organize. He had the IRS harass them and impede their organizations. He's had various authorities harass and intimidate people, such as having a reporter spied on, and having the gay partner of another detained and interrogated. If he could get away with it without political repercussions, I guarantee you he'd have the entire staff of Fox News, and every person in country who has ever identified themselves as having strongly conservative or libertarian values, put in a gulag for "re-education". So instead of concentration camps, all we have to worry about is the stuff they don't tell us they are doing, like black-listing your ass in a dozen ways as a "security risk".
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 12:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
You're a collectivist-authoritarian apologist. Six percent of the Canadian population failed to fill out their census. The government prosecuted scores of them.

The U.S. government knows how to do authoritarianism: if you don't fill out the forms, they send minions to your house, and they keep coming and harassing you until you give them what they want.


I filled my out and they still sent a minion to my house to harass me. I only filled out the constitutionally obligated question of how many people lived at my residence, which I said was one. I didn't fill out my race, or age or how much money I make. It's none of their business.

Check out the bullshit on the Long Form they send random people. It even asks if you have indoor plumbing and a kitchen.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 12:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:

Typical black-and-white authoritarian thinking. The truth is that they only need about a 5% sample to get reliably accurate general results (for the kinds of things you spoke of). The truth is that the census is a jobs program and an authoritarian tool to collect data on all individuals for purposes of control.


you will get statistical bias if it's not mandatory. if you don't make it mandatory, it's obvious what bias you get - people willing to fill it out. you don't want that.

tylerwylie wrote:
The Census totally wasn't used to round up Japanese citizens during WW2 right?


it may have been used, but there were huge other issues that led to that (i.e. the whole idea that it was a good idea).
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 2:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
BoneKracker wrote:

Typical black-and-white authoritarian thinking. The truth is that they only need about a 5% sample to get reliably accurate general results (for the kinds of things you spoke of). The truth is that the census is a jobs program and an authoritarian tool to collect data on all individuals for purposes of control.


you will get statistical bias if it's not mandatory. if you don't make it mandatory, it's obvious what bias you get - people willing to fill it out. you don't want that.

Then you go harass a randomly-selected 5% of the population. I still say it's about control. You know who came up with the original idea for a mandatory 100% census? The same people who used to execute every 10th man in a military unit that was deemed to not have performed well in battle. The same people who crucified six thousand slaves for trying to gain freedom, who fed Christians to ravenous dogs and lions for their entertainment, and who decorated the tops of the walls around Jerusalem with crucified Jews.

You know who else made a really big deal about having a 100% census? Stalin, in 1937. It never existed, though, and the people who organized it and analyzed the data never existed. Recovered microfilm shows the census concluded there had been many millions of deaths due to famine four or five years earler, after the forced collectivization of farming. Another census was taken in 1939, and it showed that the chocolate ration has been increased to 20 grams. ++good, eh?
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 8:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Muso wrote:
tylerwylie wrote:
The Census totally wasn't used to round up Japanese citizens during WW2 right?


++

A great reason to avoid the census.


but there were many gun owners who could have protected them and basically no gun laws.

So... what went wrong?
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 9:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

energyman76b wrote:
Muso wrote:
tylerwylie wrote:
The Census totally wasn't used to round up Japanese citizens during WW2 right?


++

A great reason to avoid the census.


but there were many gun owners who could have protected them and basically no gun laws.

So... what went wrong?

Japan's war was very much one of racist aggression, and it provoked a racist response.
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