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[Which do you prefer?] Life of Pi (Spoiler Alert)
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Which do you prefer?
The Animal Story.
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The Human Story.
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bogamol
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 6:13 am    Post subject: [Which do you prefer?] Life of Pi (Spoiler Alert) Reply with quote

Have you seen or read it? Thoughts?

For me, this film is profound in that it deals with what I consider to be an important philosophical question which is, whether or not there actually is a god, would you prefer that there is?
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I fail to see the relevance.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 3:56 pm    Post subject: Re: [Which do you prefer?] Life of Pi (Spoiler Alert) Reply with quote

I have neither read the book nor seen the movie. However, the answer to your question would be highly dependent on the God.
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bogamol
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The main character, Pi, was an adherent to Hinduism, Catholicism and Islam (all at the same time). He also had an appreciation for Judaism and Buddhism.

I think your dependent condition answers the question though, because you seek to judge the aspects of god and hold him or her accountable to his or her actions, thus in a way, you believe yourself to be god. Do you believe yourself to be your own prime mover and would you have the strength to do whatever is necessary to survive an unthinkably horrible circumstance?
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I fail to see the relevance.


Last edited by bogamol on Mon Jan 27, 2014 4:11 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess that depends on whether or not the God likes indecision or appreciates the pursuit of religious components which appeal to the individual. It seems to me that if any religious doctrine were correct, it would need to be adhered to completely (allowing for being human). I don't know enough about Hinduism or Buddhism to comment much on those. But in my opinion, each of the others (Christianity in general as opposed to Catholicism specifically) has enough flaws / moral failures that I don't think I'd care for that God.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How does one judge a god? If a god is supreme, then does he deserve to be judged by the likes of us? Rather, should we strive to honor that god?

The god of the Christians, is, more than anything else, a god of love. How can you speak of moral failings when what the crux (pardon the pun) of the religion is that a catastrophe has fallen on God's creation and He is doing everything necessary to save it from burning? God, in my opinion is the god of the survivalist and survival is brutal.

If quizzed, I would be unable to discern Hinduism from Buddhism, but some of the things I do know about them are fantastic and beautiful. Vishnu is the god of sustenance and protection; having Him on one's side could bring great hope when in need. (I can tell the idols apart, but I don't know their histories)

To me, the rituals in Islam have a spiritual quality that is absent or repressed in the other Abrahamic religions and I think these things make Allah a more personal god, maybe even a more relational god. The expectations on the adherents of Islam are made known more publicly than any other religion.

I think the craziest notion in atheism is the idea that we should judge a god on moral grounds. We should either accept his existence and follow his will or we should reject his existence and ignore his will, but we should not deny his existence purely on the supposition that we don't like the way he reacts in certain circumstances. If our rejection is based on his behavior, should we not confront Him as an individual? Maybe we both grow from the encounter; or maybe we see another facet of Him.



Seriously, watch the movie, it is fantastic. The visuals are amazing, the story is powerful and I've never seen a film do so well in terms of character development.
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bogamol
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I should add that I misspoke about this movie a bit. I keep using the term religion. I should be using the term faith. Faith is very different from religion. Faith, in my opinion, is the actual relationship and understanding between a person and his god. Religion is simply the backdrop that the few faithful put forward to explain their faith to others. Many who have little or no faith still adhere to a religion and, I think, they do so falsely. It would be a lie for me to say that I agree with everything that my God does, has done, but if you listen to the songs that people sing about my religion, you would come to the conclusion that Christians do not question their god. EVER!!!

The film has an interesting alludes to this behavior in a way, I think, that is profound, and that is the carnivorous island sequence. I think the meerkats symbolize people who waste their time on earth following the group rather than trying to find an actual honest to god (couldn't resist) understanding.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How do you reconcile a jealous god (thou shall have no other gods before me) or a vengeful god (Acts 12:23 "And immediately the angel of the Lord smote him, because he gave not God the glory: and he was eaten of worms, and gave up the ghost." referring to Herod) with a supreme (or perfect) god?

Ps: I don't mean to turn the thread into a god vs no god match, but i'm really interested in your answer. If you prefer to Pm me, i'll erase the contents of the post if you want.

On topic: I haven't seen the film, but i would prefer no god.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 11:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bogamol wrote:
How does one judge a god? If a god is supreme, then does he deserve to be judged by the likes of us? Rather, should we strive to honor that god?
Judgement is of doctrine and what the respective Church or religious authority dictates as The Word of God. If The Word of God fails scrutiny, then either the doctrine or religious authority has failed. If you are referring to an individual who is already a believer, that's their problem. I'd recommend reevaluating such beliefs.

bogamol wrote:
The god of the Christians, is, more than anything else, a god of love.
In my opinion, doctrinal contradictions do not allow that statement to stand on its own merit.

bogamol wrote:
If quizzed, I would be unable to discern Hinduism from Buddhism, but some of the things I do know about them are fantastic and beautiful. Vishnu is the god of sustenance and protection; having Him on one's side could bring great hope when in need. (I can tell the idols apart, but I don't know their histories)
That's find unless you believe in a God which requires belief in The One God.

bogamol wrote:
I think the craziest notion in atheism is the idea that we should judge a god on moral grounds. We should either accept his existence and follow his will or we should reject his existence and ignore his will, but we should not deny his existence purely on the supposition that we don't like the way he reacts in certain circumstances. If our rejection is based on his behavior, should we not confront Him as an individual? Maybe we both grow from the encounter; or maybe we see another facet of Him.
Atheists don't believe in god, so they aren't judging an actual entity. They might be judging a description of a theoretical entity.

bogamol wrote:
Seriously, watch the movie, it is fantastic. The visuals are amazing, the story is powerful and I've never seen a film do so well in terms of character development.
If it comes along for free, I may. I thought it looked really, really, really bad.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 11:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bogamol wrote:
I should add that I misspoke about this movie a bit. I keep using the term religion. I should be using the term faith. Faith is very different from religion. Faith, in my opinion, is the actual relationship and understanding between a person and his god. Religion is simply the backdrop that the few faithful put forward to explain their faith to others. Many who have little or no faith still adhere to a religion and, I think, they do so falsely. It would be a lie for me to say that I agree with everything that my God does, has done, but if you listen to the songs that people sing about my religion, you would come to the conclusion that Christians do not question their god. EVER!!!

The film has an interesting alludes to this behavior in a way, I think, that is profound, and that is the carnivorous island sequence. I think the meerkats symbolize people who waste their time on earth following the group rather than trying to find an actual honest to god (couldn't resist) understanding.
Faith is definitely different. But again, that goes back to the tenets of the doctrine, The Word of God, and how literal that must be taken. Can a Christian follow other gods when the Christian God clearly says that it is not allowed? Is pursuit of greater understanding "good enough" for that god, despite doctrine?

I'm agnostic. Until proven otherwise, I will not follow a deity whose doctrine I believe to be riddled with holes and contradictions. That doesn't mean I don't keep an open mind about possibilities. I was made that way. So if God made me an agnostic, am I doomed to hell or purgatory for my failure to blindly follow? That is not a deity in whom I would put much faith. That's the way I was made.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 12:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GabrielYYZ wrote:
Ps: I don't mean to turn the thread into a god vs no god match, but i'm really interested in your answer. If you prefer to Pm me, i'll erase the contents of the post if you want.


No big deal...the whole point of the film is to ask the question.

I don't know how to 'rationalize' my understanding of God as a perfect/supreme being while still having in his heart jealousy and vengeance except to say that much of the imagery in the bible is that God is a shepherd why jealously guards his flock of sheep from threats and his flock has disastrously stumbled into a trap that threatens its destruction. He will do anything to save them from death, up to and including purging members of the flock who seek to drag others away from him.

Herod actually sought to kill Jesus by ordering the execution of every young male child. Since Jesus's mission was so essential to God's plan to save us, doesn't it seem logical that God should react angrily toward Herod? It's consistent with his character; he did the same to Pharaoh after he purged the first born male children of the Jews, only to unknowingly raise the one in his own household that would deliver them from Egypt. I think this sort of vengeance reaction is a perfectly natural reaction to the circumstances in question.

I think our nausea toward this level of vengeance is due to our conditioning, or as BK would say, our authoritarian-collectivist pussification.

GabrielYYZ wrote:
On topic: I haven't seen the film, but i would prefer no god.


In the context outside of this conversation, I would also prefer no god, but I am not convinced that this is the case, nor am I convinced that rationality is the only way or even the best way at looking at the universe. However, in the context of this conversation, you really need to have seen the film to make the call. Is there ever an example of a case where you might prefer something else? A theme in this film is, "you will hear a story that will make you believe in God." It's a bold claim; and undoubtedly an uncomfortable one for people.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 12:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
I'm agnostic. Until proven otherwise, I will not follow a deity whose doctrine I believe to be riddled with holes and contradictions. That doesn't mean I don't keep an open mind about possibilities. I was made that way. So if God made me an agnostic, am I doomed to hell or purgatory for my failure to blindly follow? That is not a deity in whom I would put much faith. That's the way I was hatched.


FTFY :P
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 4:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Surely the miracle of a human hatching is sufficient for the basis of a religion!
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