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Shum
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 2:03 am    Post subject: When (and if) Gentoo will switch to systemd? Reply with quote

Seeing as systemd seems to be taking the linux world by storm and a lot of the other distros are adopting it, I'm wondering whether the Gentoo devs have any plans to make it the default init system and replacement for OpenRC?
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 3:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i doubt it, its kinda junky like no one supported it on the wiki then i went to town adding services with its syntax. its almost alright.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 4:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Luckily Gentoo : "has always been about choice". There is support for it. You can choose to use it. Done.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 5:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Luckily Gentoo : "has always been about choice". There is support for it. You can choose to use it. Done.


I knew someone would chime in with this. Yes, I have chosen to use it. But as 666threesixes666 says: "its kinda junky" and wanting for documentation. And I imagine it will remain this way until there's a push to make it the default init system.

That's why I'm wondering if that's going to happen any time in the forseeable future.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 5:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Last I heard, there is no plans to do so. This information may be a bit dated, however I believe it is sound. Gentoo specific documentation shouldn't be in big demand since you should be able to use anyone's documentation for systemd. I recommend Arch since they have extremely good documentation as well and it is fairly easy to 'port' to Gentoo.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 6:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks. That's what I figured and what I've been doing. But I was hoping some Gentoo dev would jump on here and say "Yes! We're migrating in three months!" or something of the sort.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 6:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shum wrote:
But I was hoping some Gentoo dev would jump on here and say "Yes! We're migrating in three months!" or something of the sort.


Hopefully not, but that's an other discussion which have been taken several times in the Forum.

Nevertheless this well written Wiki exist since months: http://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Systemd
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 6:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shum wrote:
But I was hoping some Gentoo dev would jump on here and say "Yes! We're migrating in three months!" or something of the sort.


What about people that dislikes systemd?
Maybe you should migrate to Arch instead of forcing people to migrate to systemd?
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 7:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i think it will start picking up steam in a little bit. i assume fixing several paths to getting to systemd will result in more use, and in turn more support. its just really random missing unit files for some packages shipping out. it works good enough for my laptop use. for server use id be a touch more hesitant to say that. they dont like change, im like what ever... show me the goodies.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 8:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
What about people that dislikes systemd?


They can choose to use OpenRC. After all, Gentoo "has always been about choice".

Quote:
Maybe you should migrate to Arch instead of forcing people to migrate to systemd?


Maybe you should never emerge --sync so no one can force you to migrate to anything. Also, I'm not in charge. But it's perfectly reasonable to hope that those who are decide to do things the way I'd like.

Quote:
its just really random missing unit files for some packages shipping out. it works good enough for my laptop use.


It's not bad really. A few kinks here and there but if I couldn't deal with that I wouldn't be running Gentoo.

Quote:
they dont like change, im like what ever... show me the goodies.

*thumbs up*
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 8:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shum wrote:
make it the default init system.
no way!
systemd != init system
systemd == system manager with bundled init system.
/me don't want this trash in my systems!
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 8:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shum wrote:
But I was hoping some Gentoo dev would jump on here and say "Yes! We're migrating in three months!" or something of the sort.
There is absolutely no need to "migrate". And this is meant literally. openrc and systemd are both supported, so there simply is no point for migration, as there is nothing to migrate. ;)

You can use it, if you like.

But why replace the default slim init system (live cds and such would suffer) with an overbloated one that makes console usage (and therefore installation) harder to do? Do you really want people installing gentoo to have to learn systemd tools (just for reading logs and such) first?
For binary distributions this is a completely different matter and not comparable.

And until now, you don't need to run your system with systemd. Only if you want to use a modern gnome you have to have systemd at least installed so gdm can set up a logind session. But the system can still be started using openrc if you like.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 9:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
There is absolutely no need to "migrate". And this is meant literally. openrc and systemd are both supported, so there simply is no point for migration, as there is nothing to migrate.

Until the stage tarballs contain systemd and the installation handbook describes how to configure the system for systemd, systemd will be a second-class citizen to OpenRC. ie. More bugs, less documentation etc. etc. It also means my /etc is left cluttered with stuff that isn't getting used unless I try to clean it up manually and risk breaking something.

Quote:
But why replace the default slim init system (live cds and such would suffer) with an overbloated one that makes console usage (and therefore installation) harder to do?

How would live cds suffer and how does systemd make console usage harder?

Quote:
Do you really want people installing gentoo to have to learn systemd tools (just for reading logs and such) first?

They don't have to learn more tools, just different tools (Well okay, except for journalctl). And those tools are actually quite easy to use (for example you type 'journalctl' at the shell and it dumps the log to the terminal for you).

Quote:
Only if you want to use a modern gnome you have to have systemd at least installed so gdm can set up a logind session.

I'm not interested in GNOME. I'm interested in kdbus, faster boot times, easier system configuration and management and just generally being "up-to-date" with the way linux is going.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 10:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shum wrote:
Until the stage tarballs contain systemd and the installation handbook describes how to configure the system for systemd, systemd will be a second-class citizen to OpenRC. ie. More bugs, less documentation etc. etc. It also means my /etc is left cluttered with stuff that isn't getting used unless I try to clean it up manually and risk breaking something.

Boo-hoo. For us openrc users, we get stuck with systemd crapola we don't want, will never use, and which according to landley (toybox) slows things down; apparently if you have the udev rules installed for systemd, they are still checked even though not used, which makes comparison more difficult: to do a true comparison you must ensure there's nothing of systemd installed, besides the previous udev project. Almost as if systemd deliberately slows down other initsystems. That's not very nice is it?

The bugs and documentation you refer to are a natural part of any new software: especially one which wants to do the kitchen-sink like systemd, and take over from sysvinit, openrc, monit, syslog, xinetd and dbus, to name just a few. And let's be honest: that upstream hasn't got a very good track-record when it comes to reliability, robustness and not breaking previously working configurations, let alone admitting mistakes and just fixing them.

So yes there are quite a lot of systemd problems on the forums. That's not because anyone is treating it badly, but simply because it is a crap design afaic. They'll get fixed over time, and eventually you'll be able to use systemd to do what openrc does. After all Red-Hat use Gentoo as an engineering division, so once we've fixed their crap they'll feel free to push it even harder.
Quote:
How would live cds suffer?

It's pretty easy to switch from an openrc install to a systemd one, because openrc is written with respect for Unix. It'd be much more difficult to support only liveCDs with systemd. So given that we must have one setup for the base, so that everyone can work on it, it makes no sense for that to be systemd.

Nothing stopping anyone making a liveCD with systemd: the truth is though that would restrict whoever used it to systemd in their install. The antithesis of the "choice" you claim to care so much about.

OpenRC does not do that: see the difference?
Quote:
I'm interested in kdbus, faster boot times, easier system configuration and management and just generally being "up-to-date" with the way linux is going.

Then you should try to take a longer-term perspective. This is the first big "One True Way" for Linux: other OSes have had the same issue, and occasionally got past it, and passed on the lesson to those who pay attention: "ALWAYS distrust any claim to One True Way."

There is no real tangible benefit to any of the things you quote; they're just more vague. Easier configuration does not come about from kitchen-sink designs that try to replace the Operating System: you just end up having to deal with them as well as everything else it's supposed to be managing for you. That's the trouble with idiot-boxes: they only work for certain things, and when you want to do something slightly off-beat, you can't. And in fact have even more trouble, because the dumbass thing is written as if you cannot be trusted, but it certainly does not know better than you what you need. And ofc upstream has to be humble, which they never are when they're making their loud assertions for One True Way: instead they blame the user.

Now you have 3 problems.

I'm glad they finally realised they need an extended msgq: they were told that at the beginning, but insisted dbus was the solution. While I have no interest in what you run, I feel you should be aware just how amateurish that team really are, for all their hype.

I'm still waiting for them to admit they don't need to run as pid 1. You'll know when that happens because they'll end up with a pid 1 which looks a lot like sysvinit (no doubt doing too much though) and a separate monit/or instance.

And don't get me started on how they suborned udev into their project so everyone would have to download and build systemd, even if they didn't want it. It never needed to be done; it was a shit idea in software-development terms, and has only led to even more bullshit assertions from them ("udev without systemd is a dead-end".) Seriously, they do everything the wrong way, preferring political tactics to letting their code talk for them.

If that's the future for Linux userland, we're in real trouble.

Hmm "second-class citizen": sounds like politicking to me, so no doubt you'll disagree with everything. Keep it technical, please.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 10:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd agree gentoo itself doesn't need to migrate, but from a user's perspective it is a bit more of a Big Thing than simply adding a new package and using it. (I have just done it and it worked OK, but took a bit of faffing.)

The wiki is helpful, I managed to identify and enable the services I needed (dhcpcd was enough for me to get the network going). The only service file I had to write was for Anacron, and that was a useful learning exercise. But the wiki is written from the perspective of "migrating", that is telling you what existing openrc services correspond to what systemd services. A ground-up "here's what you need to do to achieve these things (network, printing, logging etc) might be a better approach.

The x86 handbook says:
Quote:
6.c. Optional: Using systemd

The remainder of the Gentoo Handbook focuses on OpenRC as the default init support system. If you want to use systemd instead, or are planning to use Gnome 3.8 and later (which requires systemd), please consult the systemd page on the Gentoo wiki as it elaborates on the different configuration settings and methods.

The Gentoo Handbook can then be followed with that page in mind.

That means that a new user effectively has to get their head round how openrc works (up to a point) in order to be able to set up a system with systemd.

So until the installation guides have separate "systemd from scratch" sections, gentoo is not being agnostic between the two. I guess that could be an aspect of "migration" for gentoo?
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 11:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why do you think your complaints that systemd should be the default init system are valid, but the much larger amounts of complaints from gentoo users about not wanting systemd at all are not, and can be ignored as you go on saying "but muh system-dee"?

If you want to use systemd on gentoo you can, but I certainly don't think it should be the default.

Go use Fedora or Arch if you want systemd instead of trying to force it everywhere.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 12:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

greyspoke wrote:
So until the installation guides have separate "systemd from scratch" sections, gentoo is not being agnostic between the two. I guess that could be an aspect of "migration" for gentoo?


Last I knew you still need openrc (at least some of the function scripts) even for systemd.
So given that, it's easier to just use the default of openrc and then switch to systemd if wanted/needed.

Greens wrote:
Why do you think your complaints that systemd should be the default init system are valid, but the much larger amounts of complaints from gentoo users about not wanting systemd at all are not, and can be ignored as you go on saying


I'm guessing that it's because he's here trolling. At least that's what it sounds like.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose wrote:
greyspoke wrote:
So until the installation guides have separate "systemd from scratch" sections, gentoo is not being agnostic between the two. I guess that could be an aspect of "migration" for gentoo?


Last I knew you still need openrc (at least some of the function scripts) even for systemd.
So given that, it's easier to just use the default of openrc and then switch to systemd if wanted/needed.

...

Some scripts just need to be there as I understand it, if you are going the systemd route you will never need to put anything in a runlevel or edit anything in /etc/conf.d. You just need to be warned why the stuff is there and what it does('nt do)
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 12:59 pm    Post subject: Re: When (and if) Gentoo will switch to systemd? Reply with quote

Shum wrote:
Seeing as systemd seems to be taking the linux world by storm and a lot of the other distros are adopting it, I'm wondering whether the Gentoo devs have any plans to make it the default init system and replacement for OpenRC?


Why are you in such a gawdawful hurry to convert ME to systemd?

I've tried entering into technical discussions about this, and it just turns into name-calling. I will limit myself to saying this... Systemd is relatively new. It is premature for it to be turning into a Linux monoculture, and yet that appears to be happening. While I do have issues with systemd, that's not the issue I'm raising here. There has been relatively little real-world experience with systemd. I know it's been out for at least 2 years, because I tried it 2 years ago, and at the time it didn't fill my needs. Software maturity takes a lot longer than that - take a look at the recent security revalations about Xorg, for instance.

Right now Debian is engaging in a debate between systemd and upstart, as if they HAVE to migrate, one way or another. That's silly and premature. Maybe SysV is old, maybe it's non-optimal, maybe it's dated, but it seems to have been working so far. I'd feel safer avoiding a systemd monoculture until the black-hats have at least taken a few swings at it.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 3:29 pm    Post subject: Re: When (and if) Gentoo will switch to systemd? Reply with quote

depontius wrote:
I'd feel safer avoiding a systemd monoculture until the black-hats have at least taken a few swings at it.


True.

Having just one way of doing something is fine, but it didn't keep MS windows from constantly having security problems.
I expect the same to happen with systemd systems, especially
when they decide to subsume dbus, iptables and a few other key pieces of infrastructure.
Ah the good times to come.

Note: I don't care what people run, and I'm done arguing about it,
just pointing out some things that should be thought about in the mad rush to the one true way
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 8:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

on the to do list, gentoo + systemd from scratch install. thanks :evil:
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2014 1:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

greyspoke wrote:
So until the installation guides have separate "systemd from scratch" sections, gentoo is not being agnostic between the two. I guess that could be an aspect of "migration" for gentoo?


One of the really nice things about Gentoo is how the Handbook gives the basic framework for doing an installation. I liken it to a basic recipe: beginners can follow it to get a feel for how Gentoo works on their way to getting an installed system. The set of odd cases it treats is kept to a minimum; the divergent paths treat mostly with how to deal with hardware differences or network configuration (viz. things that you need to be sure to work out if you want to have a system that will even boot and run). The idea is that once you've got that basic recipe down, you can then alter it according to your needs.

There are tons of installation guides out there which have patterns like "follow the Handbook up to step N, then do the things the separate guide points out, then resume with step M of the Handbook". After a time, a Gentoo user gets used to following his or her own patterns of divergence from the manual. Just as a chef works out basic things like learning to make a white sauce or how to peel a potato before going on to making fancier things, the Handbook gives Gentoo users a nice starting point.

A section describing how to set up and configure systemd would really complicate the flow of the Handbook. It would be better to have a setup guide in the wiki that would indicate what to do differently than what is in the Handbook and leave the Handbook itself uncluttered.

Most of us have our own variations on the recipe anyway (one of mine is to emerge eudev and disable the kits). New users ought to stick with a basic recipe before getting too involved with those variations.

So systemd is a second-class citizen? So is eudev, and I consider that to be a lot more sane that systemd. Lots of other things from LVM, to RAID, to LUKS also involve deviations from the Handbook. That's part of the flexibility of Gentoo. The reality is that features which require divergences from the Handbook are not second-class at all.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2014 8:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow. What miket said. Beautifully put.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 10:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

666threesixes666 wrote:
on the to do list, gentoo + systemd from scratch install. thanks :evil:

I wasn't suggesting doing this particularly, just pointing out that gentoo has a tilt towards openrc. You have to choose systemd, you don't have to choose openrc as you will just kind of get it if you follow the guide. A simpler solution to the issue I raised would be to add a section to the systemd wiki page explaining how to install from scratch and to interpret the installation guides in systemd-speak.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 11:02 am    Post subject: Re: When (and if) Gentoo will switch to systemd? Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose wrote:
iptables

It seems that I am missing some information: Why do you think that iptables (or its successor nftables?) is tied to the systemd project?
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