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NeddySeagoon
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

666threesixes666,

If you want a systemd thread that better tolerates religious style zelotory, start it in OTW.
We have already had several systemd threads in the technical parts of the forums decent to that level and be locked as a result.
OTW threads are not immune from being locked - we don't have an 'anything goes' space here.

Anon-E-moose,

There is no map of what the developers are planning to do ala systemd or anything else. Gentoo is not organised like that. Indeed, its not organised at all.
The reality is that Gentoo is a loose collection of projects following their individual $UPSTREAMs. When there is a clash between two upstreams, which cannot be resolved by the projects, council is called in to determine the way forward. The Gentoo council is a reactive body, not a leadership body.

For systemd, this means that Gnome users get it as $UPSTREAM depends on it. The Gentoo Gnome devs decided that this path was better than attempting to maintain an ever growing patch set to keep Gnome3 systemd free. So we get to the state that if you want Gnome in Gentoo, you also get systemd. If you don't have Gnome3, you can choose your init system.

There are no plans to change the default Gentoo init system in Gentoo. Indeed, there is no planning in Gentoo above the individual projects.
A change to the default init system would currently involve a lot of projects, a lot of discussion and a lot of preparation. There are no signs of any of that happening.
Therefore, if it happens at all, its years away.

Navar,

With the death of Windows XP in a few months, there is a wonderful opportunity to reduce the cost of replacing XP with Linux on existing installed desktop hardware.
Longer term, the way ahead may well be Software as a Service (SaaS) but not by 8th April. The updates will be new hardware + new Windows licences or existing hardware + Linux.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NeddySeagoon wrote:
Anon-E-moose,

There is no map of what the developers are planning to do ala systemd or anything else. Gentoo is not organised like that. Indeed, its not organised at all.
...
There are no plans to change the default Gentoo init system in Gentoo. Indeed, there is no planning in Gentoo above the individual projects.
A change to the default init system would currently involve a lot of projects, a lot of discussion and a lot of preparation. There are no signs of any of that happening.
Therefore, if it happens at all, its years away.


That's good to know, but it makes me wonder why some are getting so touchy about the what-if threads about systemd.
Oh well.

Quote:
With the death of Windows XP in a few months, there is a wonderful opportunity to reduce the cost of replacing XP with Linux on existing installed desktop hardware.


I agree and think that with the state of linux desktop, that many may more seriously look at the linux option,
as I've seen lots of negative feedback on the whole windows 8 fiasco.
MS has even started talking about win9 already. :lol:

I know I'm not enamored about a tablet style interface on my desktop.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="miket"]
ulenrich wrote:
miket wrote:
, nor were most of them taken by radical ideas of subverting the king's rule. They only wanted to be treated fairly and not be run over.

Does the Poettering Tea Party align with either of these?

The Tea Party movement is enormously controversial. Beyond this point, he shows an amazing degree of ignorance about what is happening in the state where he works. The Tea Party does indeed pursue its program with vigor, but anyone with the slightest degree of perspicuity would know that the whole thrust of the movement is to reject overarching schemes imposed from on high. Furthermore, many who identify with the Tea Party are also embrace libertarianism, which itself is wildly antithetical to that kind of control.


It seems you guys are totally ignorant of why he's wearing that t-shirt. Mark Shuttleworth tried to provoke Lennart by saying there is a open source tea party that's entirely doing things because of politics. Lennart didn't appreciate this and wears that t-shirt as a response.

https://www.google.com/search?q=tea+party+mark+shuttleworth&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&channel=sb

http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/1295

Various news articles covering Lennart have explained the reason behind the t-shirt btw. Kind of funny to see you stating "he shows an amazing degree of ignorance about what is happening". :-P
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ovitters wrote:
--snip--

I wouldn't waste too much of your time posting in these threads, its pointless trying with the people on these forums in general and you'll either be called a troll repeatedly or someone will try prove your some ****** *** redhat shill so you can be banned, better to kick back and have a laugh whilst they say stupid and often incredibly ironic shit.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rorgoroth wrote:
whilst they say stupid and often incredibly ironic shit.


You mean like this ->someone will try prove your some ********** <- :roll:


I do like to kick back and laugh at stupid remarks no matter which quarter they come from

Edit to add: ****** blanks out stuff
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good catch ;)
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

:lol:
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can you guys knock it off? Not only should the choice to use systemd or not use it be completely non-political, but now there's hate speech? I'm seriously surprised the thread isn't locked.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I love how you report me for hate speech when I was just repeating what I already saw from others in this forum a few months ago regarding systemd and the ****.
Too much irony for one day :roll:

Edit, I'll do the same as da moose.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1clue
I edited my quote as I don't want the thread locked, I'm getting a little tired of threads discussing systemd winding up going that route.

I agree the choice of systemd or not should be left to the user, at least it's still left up to the user, at gentoo.

I know gnome 3 pretty much forces systemd, and it looks like xfce will try and use gtk3.
As of right now, that doesn't force any gtk3 based distro to use systemd,
but I wonder if the winds of change will go that direction, as gnome is being tightly tied to gtk3.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@rorgoroth: The reason I didn't report the other occurrence is because I didn't see it. I'm neither jewish nor anti-jewish, but I have zero tolerance for hate speech.

@Anon-e-moose: And I'm getting tired of threads that start out as "How do I avoid..." that turn into "Why would you want to avoid...". If you don't have something constructive to say which helps the OP, then anyone who doesn't want that should stay out.

I've read enough of these things to know where everyone stands more or less, and probably everyone else on Gentoo forums knows much more about systemd vs alternatives than they ever wanted to know.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose wrote:
NeddySeagoon wrote:
Anon-E-moose,

There is no map of what the developers are planning to do ala systemd or anything else. Gentoo is not organised like that. Indeed, its not organised at all.
...
There are no plans to change the default Gentoo init system in Gentoo. Indeed, there is no planning in Gentoo above the individual projects.
A change to the default init system would currently involve a lot of projects, a lot of discussion and a lot of preparation. There are no signs of any of that happening.
Therefore, if it happens at all, its years away.


That's good to know, but it makes me wonder why some are getting so touchy about the what-if threads about systemd.
Oh well.

Depends on the motives of such threads AND if it is just a rehash of past threads... far too often there has been antagonistic-like threads started (or fork within a thread) which are toned such only to spark a reaction.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 7:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1clue wrote:
Can you guys knock it off? Not only should the choice to use systemd or not use it be completely non-political, but now there's hate speech? I'm seriously surprised the thread isn't locked.
Oh, don't I *wish* the choice were non-political. The fact of the matter is the push for systemd has been intensely political.

The campaigning for it has been overt and agressive. There are technical issues both in support of it and against it, but there also has been a considerable amount of mud slug about it.

As I have said, I would not be so worried about its coming onto the scene if it were not for the agressive politicing behind it.

ovitters wrote:
Kind of funny to see you stating "he shows an amazing degree of ignorance about what is happening".
This omits the end of the sentence I wrote: "in the state where he works." RedHat is based in North Carolina, a place where it is hard not to have a strong opinion one way or the other about the Tea Party movement. A political movement. Even though I thought he made an inadroit move with that T-shirt, he wore it to further his politicing.

I really doubt we should see such a pushback against systemd here in the Gentoo community if were not for the politicing and strategic moves on the part of its promoters.

Can it avoid including so many components such as authentication and authorization policies, logging, device management, plus tons of special code to handle edge cases in particular daemons? Can someone needing to implement special startup or shutdown actions not envisioned in the declaration files make the changes without needing to edit the C source? Is it really necessary for the init system to be able to include an httpd server? (At least that part is optional.)

If it could be made to be modular with well defined interfaces between the components, that might be acceptable. Failing that, it needs not to be Gentoo's default init system.

I'm afraid that everyone who finds systemd to be too big, too complicated, and too opaque *needs* to push back against it. If we are passive, we'll be stuck with it, warts and all.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 8:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@miket,

If you're not one of the overt politickers then please don't feed the trolls. And if you ARE one of the politickers, then please knock it off.

My objections to it are purely technical. At some point either systemd will be better or something else will come along which does the same sort of thing in a better way, and everyone will use that. Even so, IMO the only discussion should be based on technical merit.

Frankly in most circumstances I don't care, and don't try to override whatever the distro uses. Generally speaking though, if I'm using a source-based distro then I DO care what's on the box, and I don't like the way systemd goes about doing what it does.

Let's be clear here: The same debate happens repeatedly in the Linux community, somebody comes along with a new idea, and maybe they don't make the best implementation of it. Traditionalists and purists alike complain about it, and either the software gets better or it gets replaced, and then the community picks the best one or two or five ways, and gets on with it. The popular packages are adopted widely, the unpopular ones die out from lack of interest.

IMO systemd either needs to fix what's broken or it needs to be replaced.

If this were a binary distro then I could see where somebody might choose arbitrarily which approach to use and get on with it. This is a source-based distro (that's obviously a huge shock to anyone reading this post) and so it should be entirely up to the owner/admin what goes on the box.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 8:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

miket wrote:

Entire post snipped in interest of brevity


Thank you for your post, you have summarized my concerns very well. I'm glad that you've also taken (at least most of) the name-calling and ad hominem out of it, which seems to be rare more than three posts into any systemd thread.

For some strange reason, I'll reiterate my technical objections to systemd, aside from the fact that it feels like it's getting forced down my throat:

1 - It gives the appearance of being big and something of an amoeba. Every few weeks it seems that some other function has been integrated into systemd.

2 - In line with the above, systemd still looks like one big package. Supporters say it's modular and cite some module-count numbers, but it certainly isn't packaged that way.

There are other objections, but I'm not well versed on them. I'll focus on those two:

A - If systemd were truly modular, it really ought to be broken into several packages, with well-defined interfaces between those packages.

B - If (A) above, then it would be possible to mix and match pieces of systemd, on a package-by-package basis, with other packages. Kind of the way I do to day, choosing my logging daemon, my cron daemon, etc.

C - One big package means it gets released as one big thing, too. There is sometimes a line to figure out on how to break things up, and how to link them together. XOrg seems to be working on figuring this out. GNOME is broken into a pile of packages, and people complain about the giant kdelibs. But here's the other problem... It's silly to think that systemd is never going to have security problems - everything does someday, even a do-nothing like IEFBR14. Someday it's going to be necessary to release an update to one little piece of systemd, and other parts of the tree will be far from ready for release. It's going to be a royal mess. If systemd were cleanly and logically broken into multiple packages, managing something basic like a quick security fix to one part would be a lot easier.

D - Back on the security thing... There is a massive attack surface to systemd, it's got its fingers into so many pies/functions. At the same it's relatively immature. Yes, it's several years old, but that's still immature. There are far older packages still finding security bugs, and they have nowhere near the attack surface of systemd.

E - And to comment on the to me apparently Borg-like march of systemd - they're taking this rather immature package with a massive attack surface that's packaged monolithically, and trying to turn it into a Linux monoculture. If things remain on the current path, and a year or two from now there's a systemd 0-day it's going to devastate the Linux ecosystem.

Right now systemd is in its "honeymoon phase", all projects have that. There are other phases, and all projects reach them eventually.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 9:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

miket wrote:
This omits the end of the sentence I wrote: "in the state where he works." RedHat is based in North Carolina, a place where it is hard not to have a strong opinion one way or the other about the Tea Party movement. A political movement. Even though I thought he made an inadroit move with that T-shirt, he wore it to further his politicing.


I suggest to discontinue your personal grudge against Lennart. He's wearing the t-shirt to show that comparing him with a tea party is not right. Anyway, Lennart is speaking on his own behalf, not on behalf of Red Hat. You're pretty grasping at straws btw. Lennart is making a statement about the comparison being terrible. Further, he's German, not American. I find it truly funny that you go on and on about a t-shirt he's wearing to protest against an inappropriate remark by Mark Shuttleworth. There have been loads of replies to that, including Tea party supporters.

I omitted the rest of the sentence because it makes no sense whatsoever. Who cares where Red Hat is based? You're just showing off to everyone that you don't know anything about this topic and I tried to be nice and not give a point by point reply on why you're so wrong. I do appreciate that you like systemd technically (I didn't notice any technical comment).
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 10:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

depontius wrote:

For some strange reason, I'll reiterate my technical objections to systemd, aside from the fact that it feels like it's getting forced down my throat:


Addressing your points:
1. Talking about appearance of "amoeba" is despite your claims not something technical.
2. Depends on your definition of modular. Various bits can be configure'd out.

A. Nope, that doesn't relate. It can be module yet in one package. See the ./configure bit. The reason they somewhat prevent to make everything split out is so that anyone depending on this doesn't need loads of #ifdefs all over the place.
B. Mix and matching is a tradeoff with huge drawbacks. See A.
C. It is a lot of parts in one repository. Xorg maintainers publicly stated that they split up xorg way too much. It makes things way too difficult for them.
D. Red Hat performed a security audit when it was included in RHEL7
E. See security audit. Further: Tradeoff between making things difficult for everyone and having loads of duplicated code everywhere vs one integrated system. Linux kernel is also used, though it also has loads and loads of root exploits. It's fixable and this is not systemd specific. You could say the same about any other init system.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 10:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tony Hoar wrote:
There are two ways of constructing a software design: One way is to make it so simple that there are obviously no deficiencies, and the other way is to make it so complicated that there are no obvious deficiencies. The first method is far more difficult.


What does systemd do?
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 10:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@ovitters,

It seems you joined the forum simply to post on this thread, since you joined today and as yet all 3 of your posts are on this thread. It also seems that you are this guy:
http://blogs.gnome.org/ovitters/author/ovitters/

If you are that guy, then I'm going to make a wild leap and say you're here because of the politics of the situation.

IMO the init system you use should not dictate the location of packages on partitions. What depontius said might not be very precise but it does point to a very critical fact of UN*X doctrine: A service should do exactly one thing, and do it really well. Systemd does lots of things, and it changes how your entire system is architected. That is a no-starter right there.

As well, if something is modular but in practice everyone has all the modules, it's not really modular.

Mixing and matching might have huge drawbacks, but NOT mixing and matching is how we got Microsoft. Are you pushing the new Microsoft? One size fits none? That might fly on a binary distro but if you start dictating what gets used on a source-based distro you're gonna get negative feedback.

As I mentioned before in this thread, when I install a binary distro I generally just want something that installs and configures fast, and just works. Which means I don't really care about systemd one way or another. But when I build a system with a source-based distro, I generally care a whole lot. And as yet the disadvantages of systemd far outweigh the advantages from my normal use-case of a source-based distro.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 10:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And let me point one thing out here:

This is Gentoo. It's a source-based distro which does NOT dictate what approach you use. The way I install my system has absolutely no impact on your life in any way.

So tell me again, why all the politics? If you can give me even one reason why my preference changes your life, I'm all ears.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 10:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1clue wrote:
Not only should the choice to use systemd or not use it be completely non-political [...]

Agreed, stopping there. I prefer the by merit viewpoint as in 'we'll switch to xyz because we see it's a great(better) idea that has been implemented well.' Instead there is this ongoing push from several notable and key upstreams that competition->promotes fragmentation->linux ecospace in the current/past = bad. They keep trying to 'fix' this and it's not the first time. So, pick your init, cli, language, display, frameworks, desktop environment and related apps that we say because any alternatives are bad. They want alternatives to go away--particularly for branding. And if you're a developer, this situation is even worse than for an end user. Why would anyone bother using Linux in general then? We already have that description in different flavorings (a choice) by several large companies with far more resources. Oh but we'll have the source code...

miket wrote:
Oh, don't I *wish* the choice were non-political. The fact of the matter is the push for systemd has been intensely political.

Unfortunately, to me, it has seemed more fanatical zealotry. At least with politics there's supposed to be consideration for each side while trying to find a middle ground to agree on. At least that's how the history books claim it worked. ;)

miket wrote:
[...]I would not be so worried about its coming onto the scene if it were not for the agressive politicing behind it.

It's not even the politicing at that point. It's the aggression in general. Why do we all need this foist upon us? A solution in search of a problem? The politics are just there and mostly come about later as smear tactics to help dismiss any nay sayers, no matter how they presented their arguments. That falls into the category of propaganda and spin. When people with an agenda dismiss you that quickly, they never considered anything you said to begin with (if they even listened).

miket wrote:
I'm afraid that everyone who finds systemd to be too big, too complicated, and too opaque *needs* to push back against it. If we are passive, we'll be stuck with it, warts and all.

At this point really, how? The entrenchment has already occurred. The pre-existing competition was dismissed. It occurred so quickly I'm still trying to wrap my head around it. Maybe if RH wasn't a 10+ year public company with 1+billion revenue, that Gnome was a minority in the desktop environments, that GTK and other frameworks/libraries weren't controlled by said Gnome group. Maybe if it was just an alternative to init instead of the ties that bind. Someone like Google has the resources to ignore this and they generally do their own thing anyway.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 11:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Navar wrote:

Unfortunately, to me, it has seemed more fanatical zealotry. At least with politics there's supposed to be consideration for each side while trying to find a middle ground to agree on. At least that's how the history books claim it worked. ;)


Could you write the United States Congress and tell them that? It seems they forgot this point. Maybe somebody at Webster's Dictionary changed the definition and caused the world to implode?

Quote:

At this point really, how? The entrenchment has already occurred. The pre-existing competition was dismissed. It occurred so quickly I'm still trying to wrap my head around it. Maybe if RH wasn't a 10+ year public company with 1+billion revenue, that Gnome was a minority in the desktop environments, that GTK and other frameworks/libraries weren't controlled by said Gnome group. Maybe if it was just an alternative to init instead of the ties that bind. Someone like Google has the resources to ignore this and they generally do their own thing anyway.


This is the good part. If somebody would come along and write what systemd SHOULD have been (a simple, well-written update of a single basic function to deal with modern architectures), it can still take over even after systemd is well established. That's the nature of the beast.

Unfortunately I don't know if the cluster@#% of the partition map will survive if something doesn't show up in the next year or so. And that's one of my big gripes about systemd.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 11:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ovitters wrote:
depontius wrote:

For some strange reason, I'll reiterate my technical objections to systemd, aside from the fact that it feels like it's getting forced down my throat:


Addressing your points:
1. Talking about appearance of "amoeba" is despite your claims not something technical.
2. Depends on your definition of modular. Various bits can be configure'd out.

A. Nope, that doesn't relate. It can be module yet in one package. See the ./configure bit. The reason they somewhat prevent to make everything split out is so that anyone depending on this doesn't need loads of #ifdefs all over the place.
B. Mix and matching is a tradeoff with huge drawbacks. See A.
C. It is a lot of parts in one repository. Xorg maintainers publicly stated that they split up xorg way too much. It makes things way too difficult for them.
D. Red Hat performed a security audit when it was included in RHEL7
E. See security audit. Further: Tradeoff between making things difficult for everyone and having loads of duplicated code everywhere vs one integrated system. Linux kernel is also used, though it also has loads and loads of root exploits. It's fixable and this is not systemd specific. You could say the same about any other init system.


I see that the whole thread has gone "back to normal", unfortunately.

1 - Perhaps "amoeba" wasn't the best term, having some perjorative context. However in descriptive terms of engulfing other things, it seems to me somewhat appropriate.
2 - Modular is as modular does, and from my point of perception, systemd is modular only to the developers. Even in Gentoo, as others have said and I agree, a source-based distribution, systemd doesn't have any significant configurability in terms of what I'll call the glommed-on function.
Code:
[ebuild  N     ]   sys-apps/systemd-208-r2:0/1  USE="acl filecaps firmware-loader gudev introspection kmod pam policykit python tcpd xattr -audit -cryptsetup -doc -gcrypt -http -lzma -qrcode (-selinux) {-test} -vanilla" ABI_X86="(64) (-32) (-x32)" PYTHON_SINGLE_TARGET="python2_7" PYTHON_TARGETS="python2_7" 2,335 kB

Nothing about options for logger, cron, logind, etc.

A. I don't buy your reasoning. If it were properly modular, the parts would be cleanly split apart and could be individually installed. At that point there would be no issue of #ifdefs. It's perfectly reasonable that systemd-logger would require systemd-core. My prime argument is in the other direction.
B. Again, I don't buy your reasoning. This seems to presume you know the One True Way for logging, cron, login, etc. This is where my blood pressure starts to rise, having been called many names over the past few months - because I want my own choice.
C. I brought up the XOrg example. But there's a world of difference between a hundred packages and one. Somewhere there is a comfortable range in the middle. I'm not arguing for systemd to be split into a hundred parts. I believe it would be a better thing if split into 6 - 12 packages. That also leaves room for forks - an indespensible part of OSS. At the risk of becoming perjorative, I suspect part of the reason systemd is monolithically packaged is to prevent forking, and to enforce the One True Way.
D. Everyone does security audits. Every security audit except the one since the last exploit has failed. I'm not saying don't do it, I'm just saying that it's no guarantee, and that "The Unix Philosophy" is a good thing to follow in view of imperfect software and imperfect audits.
E. Again, I don't buy your reasoning. The "default" would be to install the whole kit'n'kaboodle. But leave it to those who wish, to have a slightly different installation. Those people are also less likely to come back with stupid questions, and more likely to come back with meaningful bug reports.

I date back to the days when Linux required "casual hacking". I had to write/tweak my own xf86config, including modelines. I had to recompile my kernel in order to get working sound and cdrom. I'm by no means advocating a return to those days. I like "just works" too - when it does. But please don't take away my "casual hackability", and as I see it, systemd and in fact, much of freedesktop.org, does just that - they pull control back to the developers and take it away from people like me. Presumably this is for the protection of less savvy. But I don't believe that making systems easy for novices has to mean taking control away from non-novices.
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Anon-E-moose
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 11, 2014 12:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If systemd were to be setup this way.

Core libs - that all parts use

Modules that I can compile separately using core
init
logging
cron
login
other stuff

each not depending on compiling everything, then I would say that it was modular.
Putting each file, or include in its own directory does not make systemd modular.
Each file or subsystem may be modular, from a source standpoint, but that does not make systemd modular.

LP as much as stated that logind would not be able to be easily separated out from the whole of systemd.
And this is just one instance of things he's said over the last year or two.
What he wants is a monolithic monstrosity and that's what he's shooting for based on things he's said.

I made my living writing software in C, assembler and perl for many years, so I'm pretty sure I have a handle on what modular is.

I'll just put the new fanatic on ignore from now on.
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depontius
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 11, 2014 12:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose wrote:
If systemd were to be setup this way.

Core libs - that all parts use

Modules that I can compile separately using core
init
logging
cron
login
other stuff

each not depending on compiling everything, then I would say that it was modular.
Putting each file, or include in its own directory does not make systemd modular.
Each file or subsystem may be modular, from a source standpoint, but that does not make systemd modular.


I agree. I also understand that some parts of systemd will depend on others. But if all depend on all, I believe that suggests it is unnecessarily complicated, and probably has problems coming as time goes.

Anon-E-moose wrote:

LP as much as stated that logind would not be able to be easily separated out from the whole of systemd.
And this is just one instance of things he's said over the last year or two.
What he wants is a monolithic monstrosity and that's what he's shooting for based on things he's said.

I don't need an LP toadie trying to tell me I don't understand software, since I made my living with it for many years.


Let's try to elevate the discussion and leave this out, please.
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