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mv
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 7:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hypnos wrote:
It does mounting, but does it do automounting?

To have automounting you just need some additional udev rules. There are several projects (also some in the portage tree) which use pmount with such rules. I just forgot their names in the moment...
Quote:
Quote:
I have not had the need to burn anything for a very long time, but xfburn does seem to see my drives just fine.

Looking at the xfburn source, it seems that with udev support xfburn just queries the udev hotplug data when refreshing the device list, whereas with libburn it rescans the bus. Asynchronous vs. synchronous.

I am not sure whether this difference is so important here. What appears more important to me is that I am not convinced that it is a good idea to replace cdrtools by a rewritten backend: I strongly doubt that libburn is as well-tested as is cdrtools (in fact, Jörg Schilling has criticized many points of the implementation - of course he is biased and might be exaggerating, but anyway, he has a lot of experience with these things, and experience shows that not everything which he says are only lies to damage the competitors.) If xfburn would offer a choice between the backends, the application would be much more useful...
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 8:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now, posts discussing lightweight-/ minimal-/ no-*kit-/ unixoid-solutions are coming up, showing there is interest for such things. It's a miracle people found those information relevant to them in this particular thread.

That's what I thought this thread and the idea for a new forum was about - to have a central place to find and reasonable discuss lightweight-/ minimal-/ no-*kit-/ unixoid-solutions. Which I thought would be nice, as it would give this style of system-building more weight in Gentoo, while the other extreme seems to already have a whole lot more and increasing influence.

But, of course, I had to find this posts after going through two sites containing nothing but personal arguments popping up over night. And that's not the first time such threads have gotten derailed like that.

It would be stupid to split up a otherwise genius project like Gentoo because of something that simple, like others are suggesting here.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 10:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

@Olek, yes!
On the other hand:

Tonight I dreamed a "strange" idea:

WTF , why are release keywords in the ebuild files at all?
This is why ebuild files with every stabilization need a sync.
All over the place we have empty category directories (empty but directories).

Why not files like:
<cate-gory>/gentoo.release
<cate-gory>/<otherpurpose>.release
There should be ebuilds listed having release keywords!

The user just sets priorities of wished to follow releases. Thus
<otherpurpose>.release files don't have to be in every <cate-gory>.
Every <purpose> release has its own release team, its own herd!
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ulenrich,

If I understand your idea, thats what sets are for.

We can do things like emerge @debian or emerge @ubuntu if someone writes the sets.
emerge @olde_fashioned_gentoo could be made to work the same way.
Some things would need an overlay or two.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 10:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is not the same:
If exists a release file with higher priority it trumps the <cate-gory>/gentoo.release. Thus ebuilds not listed would have no keyword at all in that <cate-gory>. I mean without having to have package.mask files. And every new ebuild floating in is just ignored, because it has no keyword "per se".

By the way this makes possible as of today without patching of portage executables to have very thin overlay git repositories: Just the <cate-gory>.release files are needed and a script with some "sed" commands manipulating the original ebuild files with the lines found in the <purpose>.release files after every --sync of the portage tree.
If we can get portage enhanced to ignore "in ebuild keywords" in the case an
<cate-gory>/<purpose>.release file is found with higher priority, this would obsolete after --sync sed patching!
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 11:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

broken_chaos wrote:
The Doctor wrote:
My desktop uses openRC and mdev, no *kits, no pulseaudio, no upower, no udisks, dbus is inactive, etc and I can automount media, browse the web, print, etc, etc, etc. It certainly seems 'modern' to me. Pray tell exactly what it is missing?

I'd expect the biggest thing you're missing from a 'modern desktop' is the one-size-fits-all ideology. It's really what systemd, upower, udisks, pulseaudio, and the *kits are trying to do -- be everything for everyone. The big problem is that they tend to be complex, opaque, and leave users with nothing if the one size doesn't fit them


It's an attempt to create "windows on linux" with all of the warts of windows and none of the saving grace of linux/unix.
It's bloatware, poorly designed by people who don't really understand computers in the first place.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 11:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hypnos wrote:
mv wrote:
There are some old guys who still know what opensource was meant to be, but their influence now is zero and redhat is steering the ship and able to press any ideas in which way they want.

They use BSD.


No, I still use linux...LoL

Though I could use BSD easily, I've worked and programmed on it many moons ago.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 11:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NeddySeagoon wrote:
emerge @olde_fashioned_gentoo could be made to work the same way.



I rather like emerge @non-bloat-gentoo but personal preference aside it sounds like a good idea.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

saellaven wrote:
Tom, I'm going to say this one last time.

I will not read your posts and I will not reply to your posts.

YOUR intentional past actions have eliminated any good faith I can attempt to offer you.

You want to talk personally, either resign as a dev or lets go to ComRel. Outside of that, please, never speak to me again.


Or

I've taken the passive approach, I found a phpBB user block greasemonkey script and this is all I see

Code:
Blocked a post by ulenrich, click to view
Blocked a post by TomWij, click to view


That way if I want to respond or think they have something to say I don't consider trolling I can.
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TomWij
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 3:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A mental ignore means that you are concerned about something, have perceived something as intentional which is not meant that way; please avoid collecting such feelings and clarify as well as clear them instead, I'd prefer to co-operate with you.

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dmpogo
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mv wrote:
Hypnos wrote:
It does mounting, but does it do automounting?

To have automounting you just need some additional udev rules. There are several projects (also some in the portage tree) which use pmount with such rules. I just forgot their names in the moment...


Hm, since the dawn of times I used just plain automount to mount my devices. Used to do that with floppies and cdroms (don't have any machine with floppies anymore, cdrom still seems to work, although have not been used for a while). The only issue always jumping of usb device names with usb sticks, but it does not do that on my laptop, and on the desktops I use USB sticks once a year, manual mount is enough.
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TomWij
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ulenrich wrote:
WTF , why are release keywords in the ebuild files at all?


It is not listed in the EAPI history thus this is something decided upon in the very early days, I assume prior to EAPI=1. I think they assumed it to be the most straight-forward way; but I don't know if this is the decision of a single person or whether this has been discussed among individuals.

As KEYWORDS map one-to-one on versions, it sounds as if it makes the most sense to list them that way; especially when ebuilds are thought of as a collecting most of their metadata in variables. Do you consider this as a bad idea? Which disadvantage does this have?

ulenrich wrote:
This is why ebuild files with every stabilization need a sync.


Which type of sync do you mean? If you mean `emerge --sync` then separate directories won't make a change in that. If you mean the amount of commits happening, I don't perceive that as a problem; if that's why you think, why would that be a problem?

ulenrich wrote:
All over the place we have empty category directories (empty but directories).


Sorry, I do not see what you mean to refer to, there is a limited amount of categories in /usr/portage which none empty. Which empty categories are you referring to?

ulenrich wrote:
Why not files like:
<cate-gory>/gentoo.release
<cate-gory>/<otherpurpose>.release
There should be ebuilds listed having release keywords!


That sounds like a duplication of efforts; given that Gentoo needs more manpower, I question whether that could be achieved. What would be the selling argument to consider switching to this approach?

ulenrich wrote:
The user just sets priorities of wished to follow releases. Thus
<otherpurpose>.release files don't have to be in every <cate-gory>.
Every <purpose> release has its own release team, its own herd!


The problem is that human resources are limited.

But I think I misunderstand part of your idea. Can you give an example use case for this last quote?

I'll respond to your other post once I understand this better.

But as far as I understood I am thinking of "KEYWORDS", "overlays" and "Portage sets"; which are all implemented concepts. Can you clarify how your idea is different?
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Hypnos
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mv wrote:
To have automounting you just need some additional udev rules. There are several projects (also some in the portage tree) which use pmount with such rules. I just forgot their names in the moment...

Well, once you have udev you might as well use udevil.

Quote:
I am not sure whether this difference is so important here. What appears more important to me is that I am not convinced that it is a good idea to replace cdrtools by a rewritten backend: I strongly doubt that libburn is as well-tested as is cdrtools (in fact, Jörg Schilling has criticized many points of the implementation - of course he is biased and might be exaggerating, but anyway, he has a lot of experience with these things, and experience shows that not everything which he says are only lies to damage the competitors.) If xfburn would offer a choice between the backends, the application would be much more useful...

Do you know of a gtk+ (or other, lightweight) GUI that uses cdrtools ? I don't have Qt on my system.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TomWij wrote:
A mental ignore means that you are concerned about something, have perceived something as intentional which is not meant that way; please avoid collecting such feelings and clarify as well as clear them instead, I'd prefer to co-operate with you.


Are you psychiatrist? If so, you have to keep in mind: psychiatrists will eventually become similar to their patients.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 5:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@TomWij
first of all I don't try to achieve anything not achievable using current portage methods. But

TomWij wrote:
ulenrich wrote:
Why not files like:
<cate-gory>/gentoo.release
<cate-gory>/<otherpurpose>.release
There should be ebuilds listed having release keywords!

...
What would be the selling argument to consider switching to this approach?

a) A (very) minor advantage "emerge --sync" to only download one file per category when keyword changes happen. Also far less manifest file rebuilds on the server!
b) A performance aspect if <cate-gory>/<smallish>.release is presented to emerge. Because releases are potentially unlimited in number, you easily can present very small portage trees to the package manager. Remember: All of the ebuilds in a category not mentioned in the release file will be hidden!
Therefore an all.release is needed to quickly be able to switch off your normally reduced release. Or to turn on live 9999 ebuilds.
c) It is an invitation to create Gentoo derivatives, which are broadly effecting but are really thin: Just one file per category targeted is needed.
d) You can effectively stop an ever changing portage tree to alter your intentions as a user.

It is not clear to me yet if this approach somehow would be orthogonal to the current use of overlays. This would invalidate my suggestion :(
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 5:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ulenrich wrote:
a) A (very) minor advantage "emerge --sync" to only download one file per category when keyword changes happen. Also far less manifest file rebuilds on the server!


Can Gentoo Security fit into this idea? Is `emerge --sync` that long? I think that encouraging to use smaller syncs would make the larger sync only longer, thus keeping people from updating to newer versions or revisions (which often fix things).

ulenrich wrote:
b) A performance aspect if <cate-gory>/<smallish>.release is presented to emerge. Because releases are potentially unlimited in number, you easily can present very small portage trees to the package manager. Remember: All of the ebuilds in a category not mentioned in the release file will be hidden!
Therefore an all.release is needed to quickly be able to switch off your normally reduced release. Or to turn on live 9999 ebuilds.


This is interesting and can be easily tried out to see what effect it has; my system however is unstable, can someone with a stable system remove all ebuilds containing ~${ARCH} and see how that affects the dependency tree calculation time?

ulenrich wrote:
c) It is an invitation to create Gentoo derivatives, which are broadly effecting but are really thin: Just one file per category targeted is needed.


Derivatives are often regarded as unsupported, because they deviate from what Gentoo does itself; while it certainly is a nice to have feature, I think the invitation would be avoided.

ulenrich wrote:
d) You can effectively stop an ever changing portage tree to alter your intentions as a user.


Users that want different packages from different <cate-gory>/<smallish>.release would still have this problem I think, as the combinations are unpredictable; is that correct?

Quote:
It is not clear to me yet if this approach somehow would be orthogonal to the current use of overlays. This would invalidate my suggestion :(


It is clear how it is different now, thank you for explaining.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hypnos wrote:
Do you know of a gtk+ (or other, lightweight) GUI that uses cdrtools ? I don't have Qt on my system.


If you're running brasero, then you can turn off libburn and it should use cdrtools.
xcdroast is also a gtk+ program, but hasn't been updated since early 2012.

The problem is most are tied to the major vendors, gnome/kde and libburn for xfburn.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 7:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose wrote:
xcdroast is also a gtk+ program, but hasn't been updated since early 2012.

Thanks for the tip -- it's fine it if it works, since an old CD burning app is not a big security concern.

However, xcdroast does have some limitations:

* It has to be run as root every time the device list has to be scanned. For a a desktop that's probably not a continuing issue, but it is for a laptop with pluggable drives.

* cdrtools needs XATTR support or has to be run suid -- that seems pretty clunky. libburn does not need such access; perhaps it is not as competent as cdrtools, but does the job for me.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I always say use what works, even after I removed most of xfce from my system I kept xfburn around.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose wrote:
I always say use what works

<trolling>
I'd prefer you saying once what always works.
</trolling>
Pardon me, I just could not resist!
I -> -]
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2013 12:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

How about a wiki page from https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Category:Project_and_Community something like alternate system configurations.
Introduction - Gentoo can be installed and configured to suit the users needs. While the handbook provides an officially supported installation and configuration method a number of users find alternate installation and configuration methods useful. For alternate methods of installation see ... link to alternate install.

Discussions regarding the following information can be found on the user forums, with this page aimed at providing a brief overview with links to relevant details. The pros and cons of a particular approach can be found in the links, discussions on the user forums, and through web searches. What works best will vary from person to person, and use case to use case.

System init
There are a number of systems which can be used to initialize a system a comparison of these is available at http://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Comparison_of_init_systems

Device managers
There are a number of alternatives available for device managers, these include udev, eudev, mdev ...
Information on each of these can be found on wiki pages for example
udev http://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Udev
eudev http://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Eudev
mdev http://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Mdev

... other things which are important when installing and configuring a system ...

Some users prefer to use a separate /usr partition, the officially supported method of achieving this is using an initrd but alternative methods exist, such as use of mdev and eudev listed above under device managers. It is also possible to use udev with patches provided ...
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2013 4:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jonathan183's post is way too productive -- where are the moderators?
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2013 6:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

for all the trolling and reporting of this thread.... im a traditionalist & like sysv init... id also try busybox out so long as it could play nice with xorg
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 10:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For all the hate, flame and trolling here, I'd just like to add one more thing: (Whoever feels addressed is most probably meant)

It is not necessarily shit, just because you don't use it.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 11:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I started a wiki page for https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Alternate_system_configurations ... I'll add stuff to it as and when I get time but I'm far from an expert :(

Feel free to contribute methods and links 8)
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