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saellaven
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2013 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am willing to discuss the topic with other people, including ulenrich, whom I have vehemently disagreed with in the past and whom I believe started this topic in bad faith, intent on trying to rile things up again...

I am not willing to discuss things with you, because you abused your position as a dev to intentionally frustrate myself and others regarding discussions of a technical nature. Do we really need to rehash it all over again? You thought that you were going to be some type of heroic dev, facilitating debate on a touchy issue, only to generate enormously MORE amounts of animosity, only to ultimately tell us you didn't care what we had to say anyway.

I requested that the moderators refer us to ComRel when you did it and, apparently, nobody has.

As for this being a public forum, well, it absolutely is... but there is a concept known as harassment. I have asked you to no longer speak to me because all you do is raise my ire and, to remind you, you don't really care what I have to say anyway, so it is pointless to even speak to you. So, feel free to have whatever discussion you want to have here, but don't expect me to reply to you, since you not only think you're better than us mere users, but have already abused your position as a dev to further the animosity between users and devs - to the point, I might add, that I'm quite serious about forking Gentoo, in part because of your actions on the forums.

So, to finalize, no, I will not answer your questions or even read your posts, though I will discuss anything I've said with anyone else.
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TomWij
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2013 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

saellaven wrote:
I am not willing to discuss things with you, because you abused your position as a dev to intentionally frustrate myself and others regarding discussions of a technical nature. Do we really need to rehash it all over again?


What are you referring to? Can you refer me to that rehash?

saellaven wrote:
You thought that you were going to be some type of heroic dev, facilitating debate on a touchy issue, only to generate enormously MORE amounts of animosity, only to ultimately tell us you didn't care what we had to say anyway.


Can you clarify which parts of that were on-topic and off-topic? Why do people care only about particular matters? Can you get back on-topic?

saellaven wrote:
I requested that the moderators refer us to ComRel when you did it and, apparently, nobody has.


Why is there need to? What did I do?

saellaven wrote:
As for this being a public forum, well, it absolutely is... but there is a concept known as harassment.


There is also a concept known as good faith. Could you assume good faith and talk about the subject of the thread?

saellaven wrote:
I have asked you to no longer speak to me because all you do is raise my ire and, to remind you, you don't really care what I have to say anyway, so it is pointless to even speak to you.


Why did you address me personally? Why did you want to speak to me? Why are you speaking to me right now? What are you concerned about that you want me to know?

saellaven wrote:
So, feel free to have whatever discussion you want to have here, but don't expect me to reply to you, since you not only think you're better than us mere users, but have already abused your position as a dev to further the animosity between users and devs - to the point, I might add, that I'm quite serious about forking Gentoo, in part because of your actions on the forums.


Where did I show that I am better? Why do you think that to be so? Where is there abuse? Which actions?

saellaven wrote:
So, to finalize, no, I will not answer your questions or even read your posts, though I will discuss anything I've said with anyone else.


That's what you have said last time, we both know that you will respond again; so, could you please just answer instead and resolve your concerns instead of burying them?

I have spent multiple posts and a share of my time to understand what you mean, but there are limits; this appears to be a misunderstanding, because what you say is the opposite of my intentions.

Thank you for your time.
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ulenrich
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2013 9:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

saellaven wrote:
I am willing to discuss the topic with other people, including ulenrich, whom I have vehemently disagreed with in the past and whom I believe started this topic in bad faith,

I once experienced a distribution broke up in two parts, because of mostly was feelings. I believe Gentoo is and should be a meta distribution with some room to allow very different ideas. Gentoo as a method. Be it with a new extra portage tree.

From his perspective - here and now - TomWij as Gentoo developer demands patches, but we both know this may not match in near future what you dream of and I think is an obligation to carry on traditions to the future. So, please figure out the agenda of your project further! Maybe in some sticky threads as depontius suggested discuss the ways wanted to go on. This can go beyond later on with an extra portage tree.

And you don't have to justify this with speculations about other developer motives. It probably is false, brings up bad blood and you simply don't have to justify!
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TomWij
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2013 9:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ulenrich wrote:
I once experienced a distribution broke up in two parts, because of mostly was feelings.


What lead to these feelings?

ulenrich wrote:
I believe Gentoo is and should be a meta distribution with some room to allow very different ideas. Gentoo as a method. Be it with a new extra portage tree.


Why have two Portage trees when we can have one one? What are the advantages and disadvantages of a second Portage tree?

ulenrich wrote:
From his perspective - here and now as Gentoo developer - TomWij demands patches


They are always welcome, but I am here to support people; and figure out how I can improve Gentoo to respond to all the concerns that I come across, that's why I want discussions to be constructive.

So, where is help needed and what do we want to see changed?

ulenrich wrote:
but we both know this may not match in near future what you dream of and I think is an obligation to carry on traditions to the future.


That dream would be Gentoo, which is about choice; and that's something we can pursue together.

ulenrich wrote:
So, please figure out the agenda of your project! Maybe to begin with some sticky threads as depontius suggested, it can go beyond later on.


Can we discuss this first and avoid the hard feelings rushing into this could cause?

ulenrich wrote:
And you don't have to justify it by speculating about motives of other Gentoo developers. It probably is false, brings up bad blood and you simply don't have to justify!


Justification can only be done by proof; it will remain speculation, until questions are answered. And if it is meant to be speculation, it is fine by me.

Just want to remark that while some parts are written as if they were the truth, they should be tested against reality because people could find things to be different than stated...
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ulenrich
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2013 10:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TomWij wrote:
ulenrich wrote:
I believe Gentoo is and should be a meta distribution with some room to allow very different ideas. Gentoo as a method. Be it with a new extra portage tree.
Why have two Portage trees when we can have one one? What are the advantages and disadvantages of a second Portage tree?
OK :)
When /usr_without_initramfs broke in favor of current developments, this was not an issue for both of us. But it was a signal for people who want something I would like to call LFS (Linux_from_Scratch - Linux_in_old_Fashion_Served). We both believed having to create an initramfs is such a minor issue - this is easy to "rationale" in favor to keep Gentoo go on with upstream. But it is a mortification for people who want "LFS".

And /usr_only_with_initramfs might be the first signal followed by a lot other things changing. (I now can hear the cry of systemd-209 arrival: dbus, I know of Kde-5 etc). If it is not bearable for Gentoo maintainers to keep old fashioned compatibility why not another portage tree? I mean, if there are enough maintainers motivated to go for it.

TomWij wrote:
ulenrich wrote:
So, please figure out the agenda of your project! Maybe to begin with some sticky threads as depontius suggested, it can go beyond later on.
Can we discuss this first and avoid the hard feelings rushing into this could cause?

"cold cause" is that your fear about a coming fork? I mean there is hot feeling, very hot: I felt I was branded.
Don't fear forks, instead nourish them!

@TomWij, if you say "It is choice now, but no one never knows the future" (You said somethin alike), why not go for it if people are willing to put energ in?

From a very general perspective it is "klar wie Klosbruehe" (german very clear): Everything which grows is at the same time differentiating. If you cut the leaves there will be pain.
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TomWij
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2013 10:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ulenrich wrote:
If there are enough maintainers motivated to go for it.


There was not much response during the agenda planning and the meeting itself; so, such motivation and maintenance will need to come from the users, I have heard some developers here and there thus there might some motivation present. But it appears nobody is stepping up to actually do it, and it's that effort that is needed to go on; well, I said nobody, but actually there are users that do step up by for example writing a patch to keep it working. That patch just needs to find its way to the council or a fork, because that's what makes it differ between a patch hidden away in a forum thread and something the users know about and use at large.

A similar story applies with a logind fork, ...

Who wants to step up?

ulenrich wrote:
TomWij wrote:
Can we discuss this first and avoid the hard feelings rushing into this could cause?

"cold cause" is that your fear about a coming fork?
Don't fear forks, instead nourish them!


I meant that acknowledging the gap by providing materials for it is going to split folks further into different and perhaps opposing sides; see for example the gap between science and religions and the materials it brings along, which has a long and interesting history...

Why categorize our users into groups?

ulenrich wrote:
@TomWij, if you say "It is choice now, but no one never knows the future" (You said somethin alike), why not go for it if people are willing to put energ in?


What is "it" in that question?

ulenrich wrote:
From a very general perspective it is "klar wie Klosbruehe" (german very clear): Everything which grows is at the same time differentiating. If you cut the leaves there will be pain.


And that's why to either keep the leaves from keeping cut, live with it or take down the tree and plant a new one. What option did I leave out and why?
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The Doctor
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2013 11:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What I am still waiting for is a list of things a 'modern' desktop can do that requires systemd as I recall, ulenrich was declaring was the case.

My desktop uses openRC and mdev, no *kits, no pulseaudio, no upower, no udisks, dbus is inactive, etc and I can automount media, browse the web, print, etc, etc, etc. It certainly seems 'modern' to me. Pray tell exactly what it is missing? Still waiting on this promised list...

In light of this, maybe the new forum should be called Windows on Gentoo and include all the discussions about gnome and systemd.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2013 11:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TomWij wrote:
ulenrich wrote:
TomWij wrote:
Can we discuss this first and avoid the hard feelings rushing into this could cause?

"cold cause" is that your fear about a coming fork? [edit a second later:] I mean there is hot feeling, very hot: I felt I was branded.
Don't fear forks, instead nourish them!


I meant that acknowledging the gap by providing materials for it is going to split folks further into different and perhaps opposing sides; see for example the gap between science and religions and the materials it brings along, which has a long and interesting history...

"different and perhaps opposing sides" that is the risk of this fork. But as I just edited after your response: It is that opposing now with very bad feelings mixed. A fork can calm down: Funtoo is an example of this. A group of people with special interests. Working side by side, sometimes helping, sometimes someone comes to the other side - like me. If katholic in the early middle ages was the science and the philosophy represented by monasteries at the time, I hope our 30 years war at Gentoo will not last longer than 300 days :)
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ulenrich
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2013 11:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Doctor wrote:
What I am still waiting for is a list of things a 'modern' desktop can do that requires systemd

It is about a fork for securing you can have your kind of desktop as modern and secure as of today in the future. Which @saellaven and me think is very unlikely to have in the future without intervention. If that our expectations may be wrong I further argue: This "LFS" way of Linux (in the sence I described above) has to be supported by a portage fork with profiles helping newbies and attract them. Otherwise it is a simple matter of lifetimes of humans to die. I described it a cultural heritage obligation in another thread.
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The Doctor
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2013 11:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ulenrich wrote:
The Doctor wrote:
What I am still waiting for is a list of things a 'modern' desktop can do that requires systemd

It is about a fork for securing you can have your kind of desktop as modern and secure as of today in the future. Which @saellaven and me think is very unlikely to have in the future without intervention.


Ahh, I see. There is literally nothing that systemd has to offer except your threats that everyone not using is somehow inferior and will be in trouble.
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TomWij
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2013 11:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Doctor wrote:
What I am still waiting for is a list of things a 'modern' desktop can do that requires systemd as I recall, ulenrich was declaring was the case.

My desktop uses openRC and mdev, no *kits, no pulseaudio, no upower, no udisks, dbus is inactive, etc and I can automount media, browse the web, print, etc, etc, etc. It certainly seems 'modern' to me. Pray tell exactly what it is missing? Still waiting on this promised list...


It can do things in other ways; an alternative doesn't mean it provides new features, it can just as well provide the same features in a different way. There's no one size fits all set of software. Talking sports car; what can a Gillet do that a Pagani can't?

The Doctor wrote:
Ahh, I see. There is literally nothing that systemd has to offer except your threats that everyone not using is somehow inferior and will be in trouble.


Exactly, this is a misconception.

ulenrich wrote:
"different and perhaps opposing sides" that is the risk of this fork.


That's a different example than what I am talking about.

ulenrich wrote:
But as I just edited after your response: It is that opposing now with very bad feelings mixed. A fork can calm down: Funtoo is an example of this. A group of people with special interests. Working side by side, sometimes helping, sometimes someone comes to the other side - like me. If katholic in the early middle ages was the science and the philosophy represented by monasteries at the time, I hope our 30 years war at Gentoo will not last longer than 300 days :)


And that example can work, whereas acknowledging and doing nothing is not going to work; at least acknowledging may seem to work on the short term, on the long term it'll only makes things more complex than they need to be.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2013 11:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Doctor wrote:
My desktop uses openRC and mdev, no *kits, no pulseaudio, no upower, no udisks, dbus is inactive, etc and I can automount media, browse the web, print, etc, etc, etc. It certainly seems 'modern' to me.
sounds like the sort of thing I'm after ... icewm as a window manager and a few apps 8)

Ed: must resist ... http://dev.gentoo.org/~neddyseagoon/Old_Fashioned_Gentoo_3.xml ... :lol:
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 12:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TomWij wrote:
And that example can work, whereas acknowledging and doing nothing is not going to work; at least acknowledging may seem to work on the short term, on the long term it'll only makes things more complex than they need to be.

I am unsure what you mean. But:
Don't try to oversimplify. If you do then complexity gets hidden. As of now complexity is "hidden" from the user but managable by Gentoo maintainers: Slots and sub-slots are in effect easy to handle for Gentoo maintainers but at the cost of a slow portage emerge for everyone :/

From my time using Funtoo before pure Gentoo I know it was very pleasant for me as user to have the extra watch of Funtoo maintainers filtering the Gentoo portage tree for us. At the cost of the hard work of these two Funtoo maintainers at the time. It is manageable with a group of people! As @saellaven described above it is more easy to filter-copy new coming in ebuilds than watching about the implications of package.mask lists. It is a laid-back type of task if you don't have to serve people who want the latest patch of the latest release of gnome. If time is less a priority I mean.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 12:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ulenrich wrote:
I am unsure what you mean.

If something is unclear, feel free to ask questions about it; I feel like we are talking past each other with examples from a different frequency. What are you unsure about?
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 12:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"..., on the long term it'll only makes things more complex than they need to be."
Why?
Do you think of Gentoo maintainers have to maintain their software package for multiple portage trees?
I don't think this will happen. I think of a group of advanced users maintaining the fork.
The other way round: If I for example gonna be a maintainer of a package I am interested in, but is not in portage eg. lxqt, I could imaging You a proxy-maintainer taking these to the original portage tree. I think if this new fork will be a simplified portage tree this would be an entry point for me to step up :)
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 12:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Doctor wrote:
My desktop uses openRC and mdev, no *kits, no pulseaudio, no upower, no udisks, dbus is inactive, etc and I can automount media, browse the web, print, etc, etc, etc. It certainly seems 'modern' to me. Pray tell exactly what it is missing? Still waiting on this promised list...

Can you do automounting of *any* volume, or just volumes whose labels you know?

I have eudev so that udevil can mount any volume I plug in, Xorg can hotplug input devices and xfburn can automatically recognize the burner I may or may not have inserted into my laptop.

But it's about choice, isn't it?
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 12:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hypnos wrote:
I have eudev so that udevil can mount any volume I plug in

The level such a new fork will support should be discussed later - as depontius already described above:
http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-p-7453798.html#7453798
Or even multiple ways ...
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 12:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hypnos sounds like you want auto mount ... personally I prefer manual mount ... having the choice is better 8)
the same applies to window managers/desktop environments, cli tools, init systems ... choice is better ... and things start going wrong when people think they know whats best

+1 it's about choice
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 12:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Doctor wrote:
What I am still waiting for is a list of things a 'modern' desktop can do that requires systemd as I recall, ulenrich was declaring was the case.

My desktop uses openRC and mdev, no *kits, no pulseaudio, no upower, no udisks, dbus is inactive, etc and I can automount media, browse the web, print, etc, etc, etc. It certainly seems 'modern' to me. Pray tell exactly what it is missing? Still waiting on this promised list...

In light of this, maybe the new forum should be called Windows on Gentoo and include all the discussions about gnome and systemd.


LoL, quite so.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 12:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jonathan183 wrote:
The Doctor wrote:
My desktop uses openRC and mdev, no *kits, no pulseaudio, no upower, no udisks, dbus is inactive, etc and I can automount media, browse the web, print, etc, etc, etc. It certainly seems 'modern' to me.
sounds like the sort of thing I'm after ... icewm as a window manager and a few apps 8)

Ed: must resist ... http://dev.gentoo.org/~neddyseagoon/Old_Fashioned_Gentoo_3.xml ... :lol:


Well, I use lxde, and am waiting for the qt rewrite to stabilize.
It's basically openbox with a few things thrown in.
I don't even use a DM preferring to startx a session.
It's pretty modern. What it isn't is a bunch of useless bloat.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 1:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ulenrich wrote:
"..., on the long term it'll only makes things more complex than they need to be."
Why?


Because that is what acknowledgment and extra unnecessary workarounds leads to. What is the difference in quality between ten stickies and a hundred stickies?

ulenrich wrote:
Do you think of Gentoo maintainers have to maintain their software package for multiple portage trees?


That's your example idea, which is different from the idea with which I came; what do you think? This sounds like a synchronization matter, overlays show how these get out of date.

ulenrich wrote:
I don't think this will happen. I think of a group of advanced users maintaining the fork.
The other way round: If I for example gonna be a maintainer of a package I am interested in, but is not in portage eg. lxqt, I could imaging You a proxy-maintainer taking these to the original portage tree. I think if this new fork will be a simplified portage tree this would be an entry point for me to step up :)


There is sunrise for example. How does your example idea compare to the existing sunrise overlay?
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 1:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hypnos wrote:
The Doctor wrote:
My desktop uses openRC and mdev, no *kits, no pulseaudio, no upower, no udisks, dbus is inactive, etc and I can automount media, browse the web, print, etc, etc, etc. It certainly seems 'modern' to me. Pray tell exactly what it is missing? Still waiting on this promised list...

Can you do automounting of *any* volume, or just volumes whose labels you know?

I have eudev so that udevil can mount any volume I plug in, Xorg can hotplug input devices and xfburn can automatically recognize the burner I may or may not have inserted into my laptop.

But it's about choice, isn't it?

I use pmount + mdev which does mount all flashdrives to /media. It doesn't do the same for CDs, which I literally just noticed.

I have not had the need to burn anything for a very long time, but xfburn does seem to see my drives just fine.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 4:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Doctor wrote:
My desktop uses openRC and mdev, no *kits, no pulseaudio, no upower, no udisks, dbus is inactive, etc and I can automount media, browse the web, print, etc, etc, etc. It certainly seems 'modern' to me. Pray tell exactly what it is missing?

I'd expect the biggest thing you're missing from a 'modern desktop' is the one-size-fits-all ideology. It's really what systemd, upower, udisks, pulseaudio, and the *kits are trying to do -- be everything for everyone. The big problem is that they tend to be complex, opaque, and leave users with nothing if the one size doesn't fit them (i.e., what typically happens with Windows and OSX). Similar issues with dbus and udev, though at least they're not trying to be everything for everyone. dbus in particular is overly complex, despite being a generally good idea, and some authors have made the mistake of making dbus their main or only user interface. If someone ever has to use dbus-send to interact with a piece of software, the software's author has failed miserably.

The only two pieces of 'that sort' of software that I really strongly object to (rather than just avoid) are systemd and polkit. Systemd keeps absorbing everything it possibly can into itself (crond, syslog, system settings, udev -- at least they re-implemented the others instead of kidnapping a project, ...), and that just strikes me as all sorts of wrong. If they wanted to create a suite of separate projects that all follow the same sort of design goals and interact well with each other, fine -- make a 'libsystem' for the shared parts and split everything else up, rather than keep soaking up bits and pieces all into the same git repo and (especially) same build system. And I object to polkit on principle because fucking JavaScript -- the author flat-out stated that he looked at Lua, which is designed for embedding like that ... and then decided to use SpiderMonkey instead because he was personally more familiar with it.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 6:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

broken_chaos wrote:
The only two pieces of 'that sort' of software that I really strongly object to (rather than just avoid) are systemd and polkit. Systemd keeps absorbing everything it possibly can into itself (crond, syslog, system settings, udev -- at least they re-implemented the others instead of kidnapping a project, ...), and that just strikes me as all sorts of wrong.

This is clearly the political power game which ulenrich denies although it is so obvious: Forking anything from it should be made practically impossible (because you need a tremendeous amount of resources to maintain all these tools which only a big-money organization has) therefore they try to invent technical reasons why everything must be coupled - culminating in blatant lies like in Lennerat Poettering's previous blogs that it is techinically impossible to separate logind when, actually, only he tried everything to make it as hard as possible (the only alternative explanation would be that he simply is too incompetent to program modular) so that even an organization like ubuntu should not have enough resources to contribute to this game. It is so obvious because all the "technical" reasons given are clear lies:
They are interested in taking over existing projects and give nothing back to the opensource community. And in the lack of an organized resistance, this game seems to go up: After Debian and Ubuntu practically have given in - a binary distribution without USE-flags has no other chance unless it completely maintains all gnome applications or drops all these applications - it seems that opensource is dead. In this sense ulenrich is right: There are some old guys who still know what opensource was meant to be, but their influence now is zero and redhat is steering the ship and able to press any ideas in which way they want. Already visibile in the totalitary up-to-down way in which gnome is currently developed in which the programers are only told by the economist leaders of redhat what to do (look at the tone in the bugs and you see what I mean) - no free programmer would volunteer to play such a game.
If even gentoo would fork into a free and a redhat-bond part, although as a source-based distribution with USE-flags it can technically easy serve both groups simultaneously, the number of free programmers would be diminished even more and redhat would practically be the only provider of anything previously free - which for some reason seems to be the great new future unlenrich dreams of. This is why I warned not to go in an outsider role: Not in the forums, and certainly not in the tree. If the redhat-bond guys want to split apart they should split - or better change to redhat which would serve them better anyway, since they need no useflags.
Quote:
... and then decided to use SpiderMonkey instead because he was personally more familiar with it.

This shows the level of technical competence of these guys. Somebody writing the most secure-sensitive part of a planned operating system without any clue, ignoring hints of experienced hackers, hardly aware of even basics like race conditions involved in such a process - the whole concept is completely broken. Like on windows it will take decades until the most obvious security gaps will be closed in every application, and in principle, due to the broken reliance on dbus as a security measurement, they can never completley succeed, because every single application can be the entry point of the next gap. That whole thing is in principle so broken that it should be disposed immediately.
But as was the case with windows the security is ignored, because currently there are not enough exploits to make the thing unusuable - linux is not the primary target for hackers - and when it will be it is too late. People will be tied to redhat to get the latest and best security fixes quickly (instead of having a secure system to start off) - maybe even this is kind of a plan, although this might really be paranoia; I am afraid that they are just too incompetent to see the disaster they are steering to.
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Hypnos
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 6:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Doctor wrote:
I use pmount + mdev which does mount all flashdrives to /media. It doesn't do the same for CDs, which I literally just noticed.

It does mounting, but does it do automounting? Otherwise, I'm not sure what the value-add is over "sudo mount", esp. since pmount runs suid.

Quote:
I have not had the need to burn anything for a very long time, but xfburn does seem to see my drives just fine.

Looking at the xfburn source, it seems that with udev support xfburn just queries the udev hotplug data when refreshing the device list, whereas with libburn it rescans the bus. Asynchronous vs. synchronous.

Anyway, I'm a fan of hotplugging and asynchronous messaging/events because I'm that lazy ;)

mv wrote:
There are some old guys who still know what opensource was meant to be, but their influence now is zero and redhat is steering the ship and able to press any ideas in which way they want.

They use BSD.
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