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ulenrich
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 7:38 pm    Post subject: please new forum _Advanced_Gentoo_without_KIT_ Reply with quote

A new forum
Traditionalistas - without modern bloat
should discuss the recipe how to go on without using such bloat as

systemd dbus udev upower consolekit logind cgroups pulseaudio
etc ...

such that a valide profile can be developed. This project should
have a cool name: Zombie Gentoo


[Edit] changed title in favour of some calm to
please new forum _Advanced_Gentoo_without_KIT_
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wuzzerd
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For openers we could post our use flags. The following works in an experimental build which has at least two heretical use flags in it.
Code:
USE="gtk acl -openrc cups symlink -berkdb gif tiff png jpeg gpm X systemd  -policykit alsa -consolekit -bindist mmx sse sse2 dlz threads cairo -introspection"


My candidate for Zombie Gentoo:
Code:
USE="alsa eudev exif mng qt3support gif mp3 jpeg tiff png cairo qt4    gtk cups X truetype  gpm -policykit -consolekit    opengl usb python lcms xcb png -dbus -gnome  -introspection -bindist mmx sse sse2 -systemd "


This needs some improvement of course.
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ulenrich
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 8:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@wuzzerd
surely you can publish your personal profile in a thread somewhere in the forums. That is done already everywhere ... sometimes in ways "unsupported software" especially irritating when title is "systemd".

But this results to nowhere for nearly everyone not a specialist but trying. I think of an extra forum having multiple sticky threads each of which showing one valid way.
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wuzzerd
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 8:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry I missed your point. I look forward to reading your advice on this topic.
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John R. Graham
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 8:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@ulenrich, can we count on you to moderate this new forum? ;)

- John
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ulenrich
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 8:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John R. Graham wrote:
@ulenrich, can we count on you to moderate this new forum? ;)

On the contrary: The herd of this new forum can count on me not writing anything there :(
I am titled the herd of sycophants, because I didn't recognize Traditionalistas don't want a single one voice with arguments pro modern bloat ...

Seriously there are many problems Gnome-3.8 related popping up. These guys gonna have a hard way to sort out the helping threads as of now.

On the other hand the users, who want to avoid modern bloat, don't find a consistent way around, because it is all distributed in variously mixed threads.
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NeddySeagoon
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ulenrich,

Beginners please ...
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ulenrich
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 8:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NeddySeagoon wrote:
Beginners please ...
That is one way only, extremly restricted. But there could be other ways:
- using eudev
- using auto module loading
etc

And avoidance of ebuilds and needed USE is not discussed.

... I stop telling here. If this new forum is needed, someone who needs will talk.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 8:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ulenrich,

Well, it works for me.

Yes there are other methods to keep some of the modern bells and whistles and yes, you do need to edit a few ebuilds to get xorg to build.
The biggest problem I have is finding a good terminal emulator that works with BSD ptys.

As always, patches welcome.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 8:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not sure why those who eschew things they don't want on their systems
should need a separate forum designated "Traditionalistas - without modern bloat" or whatever.

Are they not supposed to post on regular forums? Are they diseased? Unclean? Unfit to mingle with other users?

*scratches head in bafflement*
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose,

I suppose we could split off the 'bloatware' into its own forum, leaving the traditionalists to the main forms to enjoy the way its always been.

New, improved etc. does not always mean better.
There are lots of examples where better marketing has won out against technical superiority. VHS vs Betamax for example.
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ulenrich
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 9:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NeddySeagoon wrote:
I suppose we could split off the 'bloatware' into its own forum, leaving the traditionalists to the main forms to enjoy the way its always been.
This is a fine way to go
if you previously rename a file in the default profile:
Code:
mv profiles/targets/desktop/make.defaults \
     profiles/targets/desktop/use.mask

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NeddySeagoon wrote:
New, improved etc. does not always mean better.
There are lots of examples where better marketing has won out against technical superiority. VHS vs Betamax for example.


I don't really have a problem with new nor improved (whether real or imagined).
Just let me and others make their own decision and if we find it lacking in certain areas, for us,
then listen rather than trying to trying to *fingers in ears* defend what may not be the best for us.

I know, it's a radical thought...but still.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 10:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't feed the troll!
ulenrich knows very well that things are not about "modern" vs. "retarded".
The true issue is about good software or good modern developments vs. bad software and broken concepts, and he intentionally mixes things up: While cgroups is a reasonable (modern) concept in the kernel and udev (if taking isolated) makes sense (but why is 10 years old software called "modern"?) there is the many broken concepts of systemd and horribly badly written software like pulseaudio.

Splitting things up in one direction or the other makes absolutely no sense: You see from the title what the threads are about, and if people are not interested in, say, gettting gnome 3.8 to run or keeping /usr separate without initramfs, they just skip the corresponding threads.
And trying to split forums into good software vs. bad software makes no sense, either.

People not praising everything Lennert Poettering produced banning in their own forums and thus effectively having no voice in future gentoo development is of course what ulenrich really is after.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 10:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mv wrote:
Don't feed the troll!
...
People not praising everything Lennert Poettering produced banning in their own forums and thus effectively having no voice in future gentoo development is of course what ulenrich really is after.


I know what he's after, I'm pretty sure the same can be said for others.
I know what drives him.

But I'll reiterate my stance here since he was kind enough to provide a thread for it.
I'm a believer in giving someone enough rope to hang himself from.

Just because he starts a thread thinking that things will go his way,
doesn't mean they will, it can springboard into something else.
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ulenrich
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 10:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mv wrote:
Don't feed the troll!
ulenrich knows very well that things are not about "modern" vs. "retarded".
The true issue is about good software or good modern developments vs. bad software and broken concepts, and he intentionally mixes things up: While cgroups is a reasonable (modern) concept in the kernel and udev (if taking isolated) makes sense

Haven't I explicitly stated above:
ulenrich wrote:
That is one way only, extremly restricted. But there could be other ways:
- using eudev
- using auto module loading
etc
It is your herd where there is a mess what should be adviced. I can find many of such threads, where real and interested users couldn't get nowhere.

Perhaps better such a title for the new forum: Advanced Gentoo without KIT
to hint it is not newbies place to turn in. I didn't want to provoke any nerves that harsh.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 11:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ulenrich wrote:
to hint it is not newbies place to turn in

Why should newbies guided to use bad software instead of reading about the problems they would get with it?
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 11:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mv wrote:
ulenrich wrote:
to hint it is not newbies place to turn in

Why should newbies guided to use bad software instead of reading about the problems they would get with it?
Then better Advanced Gentoo without KIT for newbies

If there will be a new forum or not: Times will get harder for you . Your herd has to structure more and get some consistency. I could have done easy trolling by pointing out exactly that in the threads of your herd. While using systemd, it doesn't mean to me alternative capabilities of Gentoo should die with time goes by.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 11:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ulenrich wrote:
If there will be a new forum or not: Times will get harder for you. Your herd has to structure more

Now you want to push everybody who is not paid by redhat or stupidly follows some liars without his own mind into a "herd which must structure"? How far will you proceed with your stupid rhetorical attempts to force gentoo users (especially unknowing newbies) to let other people decide over their system? And you - full of all that fear that true technical facts are told by somebody instead of lies and therefore pushing all these people into a "herd" - you are the one who attacks other people of their "redhat conspiracy theories"?
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 12:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mv wrote:
And you - full of all that fear that true technical facts

I opened the thread about this cgroup issue regarding systemd, at first I thought I have missed 1. of april:
http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-962232-start-0.html

I have read the kernel mailinglist discussion about it: "simple" cgroups gone wild with several trees of it fighting each other. You refered me to second hand information by a blogger suffering from Dunning-Kruger_effect .

Be aware I don't feel bound to answer to all of the attacks especially if my "herd of sycophants" (this is how your herd called me as sole) stands sole.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 12:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been finding this tread very interesting and hoping it will bear fruit and end up whit an area that fills in the missing parts and "whys" that most of the how to threads and wikis leave out. They may be common knowledge to you all but not to someone who doesn't work in the field.

Guys, please don't have a flamewar here. I've seen all f you post many, many helpful post for people with all kinds of problems. Those are the posts that gain you respect.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 12:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ulenrich wrote:
mv wrote:
And you - full of all that fear that true technical facts

I opened the thread about this cgroup issue regarding systemd, at first I thought I have missed 1. of april:
http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-962232-start-0.html

I have read the kernel mailinglist discussion about it: "simple" cgroups gone wild with several trees of it fighting each other. You refered me to second hand information by a blogger suffering from Dunning-Kruger_effect .

Be aware I don't feel bound to answer to all of the attacks especially if my "herd of sycophants" stands sole.


Are you saying the OP of that thread suffers from Dunning-Kruger?
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 12:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wuzzerd wrote:
Are you saying the OP of that thread suffers from Dunning-Kruger?

The "bit technical truth" I was given here. But I dont like to speak about another third person in absentia. cgroups are not that simple as claimed there. Guess what: "Computer systems are simple because they only know true (1) or false (0) bits of information."
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 1:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dunning-Kruger_effect ???

I amazed at how sadly pathetic some of the cheerleaders have become :roll:
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 1:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose wrote:
I amazed at how sadly pathetic some of the cheerleaders have become :roll:
It is only me. And I can abstain from majestic plural. Though being a "herd of sycophants" I like.
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