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TomWij
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NeddySeagoon wrote:
Its only a matter of time until systemd depends on Gnome to be able to configure it :)


Ah, circular dependencies, eventually it will become a system that controls itself (skynet); see compilers for reference.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 12:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Personally I find it somewhat amusing and entertaining to read: "The 'systemd-epos' on the forums.".

Come on, folks. How long is this supposed to be carried on? How long will some of you keep arguing like Lennart Poettering himself goes round pointing a gun to everybodies head to force them to switch to systemd? Taking over the world?
And then these conspiracy theories about how gentoo is adopting systemd and forces it down its users throats. Are you even aware that this is complete nonsense?
The *only* party out there forcing systemd on their users are the Gnome devs.
And last time I looked the gentoo council didn't have their hands in the Gnome development decisions..

So please, please, please cool down and stop comparing apples with oranges. Allowing and enabling users to use systemd if the users want to is not removing, but adding choice.

Just an example (Important: This is nothing personal or intended bash or anything. It is just the shortest and most compact example in this thread!)
Anon-E-moose wrote:
I don't hate anyone or anything, certainly not a software package.
I prefer not to use it, and I dislike being forced to by others taking away choice.
Simple as that.
Yes. And the simplicity is, that it is (currently) *only* gnome-3.8+ that is taking away choice. So actually, it is just one software package (yes, yes, a very big one, indeed) that is limiting you, but the choice remains. Nobody forces you to use gnome!
And nicely enough, 99% of all the rants currently cursing around can be boiled down to just this...

...and then there are people insisting that the gentoo devs simply have to provide a systemd-free gnome-3.8+ ... But I guess nobody needs any explanation why this is a preposterous demand, right?
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 12:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TomWij wrote:
Claiming someone trolls and giving no basis for it is a disrespectful way of disagreeing, it does also not deal with the central point of an argument; it should be clear that I agree with your earlier opinion, but just want to point out it is not happening, that is in no way trolling, so there is really no need to merry-go-round because of a lack of care...
Tom, don't! You simply gave too much information. Too much "proof". Anybody too agravated by something (justified or not) would brush so much information proving they are wrong aside, too. ;)
(btw: This was a great collection and a very good read!)
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 12:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yamakuzure wrote:
Just an example (Important: This is nothing personal or intended bash or anything. It is just the shortest and most compact example in this thread!)
Anon-E-moose wrote:
I don't hate anyone or anything, certainly not a software package.
I prefer not to use it, and I dislike being forced to by others taking away choice.
Simple as that.
Yes. And the simplicity is, that it is (currently) *only* gnome-3.8+ that is taking away choice.


No, it's not gnome, gnome may be attached to systemd but Just as an example the reason for /run is systemd, not gnome.
And no I'm not going to get into the whether /run is a good idea, the right idea, etc. It's just an example to show lack of choice.

Now many packages are using /run and I have no choice but to have /run because of something mandated by systemd.

So what I said was correct. That doesn't mean that everything is being mandated at this moment.
But still...I see the handwriting on the wall.

DEVTMPFS was also added because udev/systemd needed it to make life easier for themself.

Then there are the words of Lenart himself. Again I won't debate this, either one looks at things without bias or they don't.
I don't need an apologist telling me I'm conspiracy minded, addle brained, a hater, or any other label, simply because I read
and understand both sides of the debate but won't choose what they think I should.

Are there good ideas coming from systemd's push? Yes.

So if you want to use it then by all means do so.
But don't tell me I'm wrong to have my own opinion and views on things and where I perceive that they are headed.

I'll leave this for now, as I'm not going to be drawn into a useless merry-go-round of arguments
by some that are (seemingly) just here to troll.
And no I'm not accusing you of this, just stating why I won't get into these debates.
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TomWij
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yamakuzure wrote:
The *only* party out there forcing systemd on their users are the Gnome devs.
And last time I looked the gentoo council didn't have their hands in the Gnome development decisions..

And the simplicity is, that it is (currently) *only* gnome-3.8+ that is taking away choice. So actually, it is just one software package (yes, yes, a very big one, indeed) that is limiting you, ...


No. I assume this to be the upstream developers; because here at Gentoo, the dependency has been made optional some time ago...

Yamakuzure wrote:
..., but the choice remains. Nobody forces you to use gnome!


Yes.

Yamakuzure wrote:
and then there are people insisting that the gentoo devs simply have to provide a systemd-free gnome-3.8+ ... But I guess nobody needs any explanation why this is a preposterous demand, right?


You can't get anything out of nothing; so, the only way to really get there is to help. :)

Yamakuzure wrote:
Tom, don't! You simply gave too much information.


Yamakuzure, do! Read your own signature to see why more information is a good thing.

Yamakuzure wrote:
Too much "proof". Anybody too agravated by something (justified or not) would brush so much information proving they are wrong aside, too. ;)


Aggravation, being wrong or right, becoming a winner or a loser; whatever, it doesn't help us move forward, proofs and justifications do...
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TomWij
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 1:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose wrote:
No, it's not gnome, gnome may be attached to systemd but Just as an example the reason for /run is systemd, not gnome.
And no I'm not going to get into the whether /run is a good idea, the right idea, etc. It's just an example to show lack of choice.

Now many packages are using /run and I have no choice but to have /run because of something mandated by systemd.

So what I said was correct.


http://lwn.net/Articles/436012/ You are right. :)

Anon-E-moose wrote:
DEVTMPFS was also added because udev/systemd needed it to make life easier for themself.


http://lwn.net/Articles/330985/ udev perhaps, but not systemd; unless you assume that one is a derivation of the other, then yes, but I don't see LP involvement at that moment in time.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@TomWij, in general
Anon-E-moose wrote:
That doesn't mean that everything is being mandated at this moment.
But still...I see the handwriting on the wall.

Anon-E-moose stating that, I can accept now: there might be less choice sooner I thought some weeks ago. (I must revise my expectations seeing Debian and Kde on the brink.)

But what to do about this matter loosing choice:
Spitting at Gentoo maintainers?
Imaging Gentoo doesn't follow upstream any more:
Will that florish our distribution?

... I proposed an action on this matter. But I was accused to derail this discussion.

[edit] english language correction ...
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TomWij
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ulenrich wrote:
Anon-E-moose stating that, I can accept now: there might be less choice sooner I thought some weeks ago. (I must revise my expectations seeing Debian and Kde on the brink.)


Possibly, it happens on a large scale in the Portage tree that dependencies become mandatory; just like it happens a lot that they become optional or get removed.

It's a common thing that happens, it is just much more noticeable on important and/or popular packages...

ulenrich wrote:
But what to do about this matter loosing choice:
Spiting against Gentoo maintainers?
Imaging Gentoo doesn't follow upstream any more:
Will that florish our distribution?


We don't have enough people to become another upstream every time we disagree with upstream, I doubt it.

ulenrich wrote:
... I proposed an action on this matter. But I was accused to derail this discussion.


Which rails are we on anyway?
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 4:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NeddySeagoon wrote:
Its only a matter of time until systemd depends on Gnome to be able to configure it :)
...

LOL :D
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 10:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

After reading this thread, and other ones related to systemd, I'm growing increasingly alarmed with the direction this is taking. As an example, and please correct me if I'm wrong: gnome went from not requiring systemd at all, to requiring just a part of it installed, to requiring the installation of the complete package, to requiring systemd installed and running. Furthermore, it is impossible to control this dependency with a USE flag (understandably so, by the way, since Gentoo can't go against upstream).

I've lived this before with pulseaudio, which wouldn't work with some of my applications. I was using Ubuntu then, where it was initially optional, then it became practically mandatory. This was about four years ago. Then I found an amazing distro called Gentoo that would not only get the best performance out of my PC, it would also offer me what I was really looking for: choice. And just by adding single words to a text file. Plus I got to brag a lot at work, where the previous alpha male just managed to install Arch. And also, as a final reward, supplementary bedroom heating while emerging libreoffice.

These have been, linux-wise, my happiest years.

Right now I don't use gnome, so this whole affair isn't affecting me. However, given my previous experiences with our good friend's software, one thing is clear to me: I'm sure that systemd is a magnificent piece of engineering, but I don't want it in my box. Plus, I don't need it, my system boots fast enough already.

What really has me somewhat worried are these reports I keep reading in these threads, such as: a) the Council is lining up behind systemd, b) the openrc lead dev is a systemd mole, sabotaging OpenRC from inside to promote his agenda, c) a number of developers are actively attacking any effort to keep systemd dependencies at bay (such as eudev), and so on. But I can't seem to find any proof, my hope being that these are just exaggerations.

Anyway, three questions: a) Are these things true? (and please provide relevant links), b) What are the chances of keeping OpenRC in Gentoo as a maintained and relevant init system for the foreseeable future? and c) What are my chances of not needing systemd in Gentoo as long as I don't use gnome?

Thanks in advance for any clarification.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 12:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

luismw ++
I will leave Gentoo when systemd becomes mandatory.
Gerard.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gerard82 wrote:
I will leave Gentoo when systemd becomes mandatory.


I think a lot of people will do so.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When you say "mandatory" you mean you must use it as init script or just as a dependency?
i.e. I can have Gnome after install systemd, but yet using OpenRC as my init script
it would be a "mandatory" dependency but not "mandatory" to use as init script
(Someone correct me if I'm wrong)
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

luismw wrote:
After reading this thread, and other ones related to systemd, I'm growing increasingly alarmed with the direction this is taking. As an example, and please correct me if I'm wrong: gnome went from not requiring systemd at all, to requiring just a part of it installed, to requiring the installation of the complete package, to requiring systemd installed and running. Furthermore, it is impossible to control this dependency with a USE flag (understandably so, by the way, since Gentoo can't go against upstream).

I've lived this before with pulseaudio, which wouldn't work with some of my applications. I was using Ubuntu then, where it was initially optional, then it became practically mandatory. This was about four years ago. Then I found an amazing distro called Gentoo that would not only get the best performance out of my PC, it would also offer me what I was really looking for: choice. And just by adding single words to a text file. Plus I got to brag a lot at work, where the previous alpha male just managed to install Arch. And also, as a final reward, supplementary bedroom heating while emerging libreoffice.

These have been, linux-wise, my happiest years.


I spent several years running RedHat, from 4.0 through 7.2. (This is in the pre-Enterprise days.) When I saw "RedHat 8" come along, without the ".0" at the end I felt trouble was on the way, and started looking around for an alternative. I settled on Gentoo, I believe back around the 2.2 - 2.4 days, and have been there ever since. Generally happily, I might add.

luismw wrote:
Right now I don't use gnome, so this whole affair isn't affecting me. However, given my previous experiences with our good friend's software, one thing is clear to me: I'm sure that systemd is a magnificent piece of engineering, but I don't want it in my box. Plus, I don't need it, my system boots fast enough already.


You're being much too generous. I think systemd started as a magnificent idea - in fact I tried it out a year or two ago. At the time it didn't work for my needs. But since then is has gone steadily downward in my estimation. Lennart says it's "modular" when he "debunks" critics. Maybe the code is modular, but when you can't select your login, logging, or anything else systemd has assimilated, it's not really modular. It's only modular for them. For those key pieces, your system works his way, and you can't pick and choose for those pieces he has chosen as his own. Today I can select my cron, logging daemons, etc. I have transparency, access, and options.

The other thing that bothers me are the "gnomelets" - stuff that has loosely been associated with gnome. I've heard that gnucash isn't going to be a problem, but how about gstreamer - it's getting increasing use as a general media back-end. How about gphoto2, brasero, etc. Some of the gnomelets are pretty handy, but at what point are they going to suck you all the way into systemd? Will it be possible to use any of them without systemd at some point? Do I need to start migrating now?

luismw wrote:
What really has me somewhat worried are these reports I keep reading in these threads, such as: a) the Council is lining up behind systemd, b) the openrc lead dev is a systemd mole, sabotaging OpenRC from inside to promote his agenda, c) a number of developers are actively attacking any effort to keep systemd dependencies at bay (such as eudev), and so on. But I can't seem to find any proof, my hope being that these are just exaggerations.


What has me really annoyed is the semantic war going on here and now. There is this default underlying attitude that we're all moving to systemd, and somehow all doubts about systemd are getting squashed, turned into trolls, called Luddites, getting banned, etc. This appears to be a huge steamroller, and what's annoying is that it completely changes the character of Linux from a casually hackable system into something more resembling Windows - and nobody in the high-profile crowd is saying anything against it.

luismw wrote:
Anyway, three questions: a) Are these things true? (and please provide relevant links), b) What are the chances of keeping OpenRC in Gentoo as a maintained and relevant init system for the foreseeable future? and c) What are my chances of not needing systemd in Gentoo as long as I don't use gnome?

Thanks in advance for any clarification.


It's not just Gentoo, it's Linux as a whole that's getting wrapped, submerged, dare I say assimilated - by systemd.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 7:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
t's not just Gentoo, it's Linux as a whole that's getting wrapped, submerged, dare I say assimilated - by systemd.


You're making me wish that Linux was being as controlled as the BSD Unixes. This is ridiculous.

BTW: After being off the air for 2 months, not being able to run my Gnome3....but being barely functional with Mate Desktop and GTK2, I finally got systemd running on my system. It was a lot of pain and, because of it, I have a lot of resentment towards systemd. I don't want systemd, but I only have bad choices since, as of now and not limited to gnome, a lot of programs and tools on my system are refusing to run without it. I want to be able to have good choices for Linux, but I don't see how systemd is allowing good choices for me.

So now that I have systemd on my system.....Just what advantage do I have over the old OpenRC/Udev system? My machine boots up in the same amount of time under either, so I don't even see a speed difference. Big Disadvantage I see is that suddenly things are more complicated to configure on my machine and a lot of the so called configuring scripts remind me of the hateful Keys in a Windows registry. Is that what you guys wanted?

Unfortunately, I've also read this past week that RedHat, Ubuntu, Arch, and others are adopting systemd exclusively.

Maybe I will just switch to FreeBSD.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 8:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

luismw wrote:
After reading this thread, and other ones related to systemd, I'm growing increasingly alarmed with the direction this is taking. As an example, and please correct me if I'm wrong: gnome went from not requiring systemd at all, to requiring just a part of it installed, to requiring the installation of the complete package, to requiring systemd installed and running. Furthermore, it is impossible to control this dependency with a USE flag (understandably so, by the way, since Gentoo can't go against upstream).


Don't base yourself on a thread, go and check what is in the Portage tree; so, yes, run the following and you will be able to correct yourself:

Code:
grep -r sys-apps/systemd /usr/portage/gnome-base
grep -r sys-apps/systemd /usr/portage/gnome-extra


You can definitely override it, and with some wrangling get a GNOME 3.8 on OpenRC going; but yes, since upstream focuses on systemd, not everything might work as well as one would want.

And that's where work is needed; but as far as we got, nobody has stepped up or has the time to get such a huge fork going...

luismw wrote:
What really has me somewhat worried are these reports I keep reading in these threads, such as: a) the Council is lining up behind systemd, b) the openrc lead dev is a systemd mole, sabotaging OpenRC from inside to promote his agenda, c) a number of developers are actively attacking any effort to keep systemd dependencies at bay (such as eudev), and so on. But I can't seem to find any proof, my hope being that these are just exaggerations.


Now I wonder how much of that is truth; which just like above, would require some fact checking. How many votes did the council make that are in favour of systemd and in disfavour of other init systems or service managers? One? Has the OpenRC lead a history of sabotaging OpenRC to promote systemd? Do people have problems with OpenRC due to sabotage? Is eudev kept at bay or is it just slowing down? It is slowing down according to `grep '^*' /usr/portage/*/eudev/ChangeLog` and the commit log (https://github.com/gentoo/eudev/commits/master); but, did that involve any attacks?

luismw wrote:
Anyway, three questions: a) Are these things true? (and please provide relevant links), b) What are the chances of keeping OpenRC in Gentoo as a maintained and relevant init system for the foreseeable future? and c) What are my chances of not needing systemd in Gentoo as long as I don't use gnome?


a) See above. b) It still has 7 maintainers and you can judge the rest from the shortlog (http://git.overlays.gentoo.org/gitweb/?p=proj/openrc.git;a=shortlog). c) Gentoo is all about choice, as per the About and Philosophy page as well as the documentation introduction; so, unless a lot of upstreams get magically convinced to switch I'd say not any time soon.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 10:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spicerun wrote:
Unfortunately, I've also read this past week that RedHat, Ubuntu, Arch, and others are adopting systemd exclusively.

"Mainstream" Arch may have adopted systemd, but there are several people using OpenRC or Busybox on Arch, and actively working toward making them easily installed alternatives to systemd. There are also distros like CRUX which have not adopted systemd and have no plans to do so. Given that other distros already have alternatives, I expect there will always be alternatives in Gentoo as well.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 10:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

depontius wrote:
Lennart says it's "modular" when he "debunks" critics. Maybe the code is modular, but ... It's only modular for them. ... changes the character of Linux from a casually hackable system into something more resembling Windows

I think what we see is a very general rule, a kind of law of development:
In the beginning of a new technique medium experts and hardcore fans are the few users and can hack their system. But when matured and used by everyone a hack will need an expert. For example I think of a really bad programer selling a quick basic hack to IBM and founding his empire. Or Goethe, the german writer and liberal arts genious, two hundreds years ago made his living being the supervisor of mining.

In contrast to Windows ...
depontius wrote:
There is this default underlying attitude that we're all moving to systemd, and somehow all doubts about systemd are getting squashed, turned into trolls, called Luddites, getting banned, etc. This appears to be a huge steamroller, and what's annoying is that it completely changes the character of Linux from a casually hackable system into something more resembling Windows - and nobody in the high-profile crowd is saying anything against it.
...
It's not just Gentoo, it's Linux as a whole that's getting wrapped, submerged, dare I say assimilated - by systemd.

... the code is forkable:
Opensource is not democraticly organized. Some say it is docracy based on merits. Your words imply it is tyranny:
a) If you insist your words are meant literally, I insist this is Redhat-conspiracy-theory.
b) If you admit this is metaphorically speaking, I accept it regarding your feelings. But may I ask you to add to this picture: It is tyranny without Berlin-Wall. And behind the curtain, you can go through and will find the free woodlands, where you can build up your own kingdom, if you are a developer! This mechanism of endless space to settle new projects makes in effect the docracy :)

PS.1: a) will nourish the split between Gentoo maintainers and users.
(What should maintainers do but follow upstream?)
PS.2: Conspiracy theory misfits reality. The indicator your kognition of reality is in bad shape: Every now and then You get bad suprises. A 'normal' reaction to this is to strengthen your theory, goto PS.1
PS.3: Alternatively consider to admit
- LP may be smart enough a developer
- All over the place highend projects awaited the chance to easily 'vertical integrate' on solid ground, also if it is not perfect ground. And kernel.org is happy to have less customers to talk to about cgroups.
PS.4: This expectations in mind let us talk how to save some of the heritage we have in a way well enough to run a _modern_ system (a usable system capable to run actual frontend programs).
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 5:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spicerun wrote:
Unfortunately, I've also read this past week that RedHat, Ubuntu, Arch, and others are adopting systemd exclusively.
Do you have a source for Ubuntu switching? All I can seem to find is that they plan to include logind into upstart.
ulenrich wrote:
This expectations in mind let us talk how to save some of the heritage we have in a way well enough to run a _modern_ system (a usable system capable to run actual frontend programs).
Really? Exactly what features does a non-systemd system lack to qualify as a modern system?

This claim is quite extraordinary on your part. I hope you can meet your burden of proof.


My 2 cents on the discussion is that alternatives are great, but systemd doesn't seem to be built that way.

For example, it isn't modular from a user's perspective. It has even merged several previously separate and almost universally standard components into itself and deprecated stand alone support. I am speaking of course of Udev. To me, this speaks volumes about the intentions of the developers.

I am all for alternatives and choice. I just object to the way the developers behind systemd appear to object to alternatives to their project. To take a simplistic analogy, I support free speech but I oppose those who use free speech to argue for censorship.

In any case, I intend to exercise my choice and run OpenRC with mdev for as long as possible.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 10:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Doctor wrote:
In any case, I intend to exercise my choice and run OpenRC with mdev for as long as possible.


I haven't used mdev as I'm still running udev 171 without problems
as well as locking openrc at 0.9.8.4 (pre removal of /var/run) and
don't have any problems there either.
If I do have problems somewhere, I'll either see about switching to
eudev (depending on maturity), mdev or just go static. Those are my viable choices.

As far as the systemd sycophants and their claims, nothing new there, which is why they're classified as trolls.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 12:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ulenrich wrote:
a) If you insist your words are meant literally, I insist this is Redhat-conspiracy-theory.

Naah, not conspiracy, human nature, and we've picked up some nasty social/political habits lately that make it look more conspiratory. The human mind is so good at seeking and finding patterns that you can find (apparent) conspiracies everywhere, if you look
ulenrich wrote:
b) If you admit this is metaphorically speaking, I accept it regarding your feelings. But may I ask you to add to this picture: It is tyranny without Berlin-Wall. And behind the curtain, you can go through and will find the free woodlands, where you can build up your own kingdom, if you are a developer! This mechanism of endless space to settle new projects makes in effect the docracy :)

Simple matter of time. I've actually had a project in mind for a while now, and that's attacking another Freedesktop.org mess - dbus. All of those "magic strings" really annoy me. When someone gives you the answer it seems obvious, but how does one get there in the first place. When I get time, I'd like to walk through dbus and write some "how do you solve dbus problems" documentation. Take some of the magic out of the strings. It would also be fun to resurrect some sort of dbus-spy program.

I would certainly applaud any sort of fork of systemd that rendered it truly modular, and at least render assistance with testing. As I said, I think systemd is a really good idea - it just got side-tracked on the way to implementation.
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dmpogo
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

depontius wrote:
I'd like to walk through dbus and write some "how do you solve dbus problems" documentation. Take some of the magic out of the strings. It would also be fun to resurrect some sort of dbus-spy program.


Something like dev-util/d-feet ?
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depontius
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dmpogo wrote:
depontius wrote:
I'd like to walk through dbus and write some "how do you solve dbus problems" documentation. Take some of the magic out of the strings. It would also be fun to resurrect some sort of dbus-spy program.


Something like dev-util/d-feet ?


Yes, though I thought that I'd heard once that it had withered. (I just installed it on RedHat at work.) At home portage gives me a royal mess when I try "emerge -ptv d-feet", between USE flags, slots, etc. I tried a few simple workarounds and still have slot problems, it'll take more later. In the meantime a search for "d-feet tutorial" yields some interesting and helpful links. However the "images" link for d-feet is entirely humorous.

As I said, there are wishes and there is time, and the two aren't often present together.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Doctor wrote:
Spicerun wrote:
Unfortunately, I've also read this past week that RedHat, Ubuntu, Arch, and others are adopting systemd exclusively.
Do you have a source for Ubuntu switching? All I can seem to find is that they plan to include logind into upstart


My bad...sorry, I didn't differentiate between systemd and systemd logind. Yes, I can only find the articles that say Ubuntu plans to include logind into upstart. Since I don't use Ubuntu, I didn't know what Upstart was.

Has anybody ever considered that there are too many flipping names/titles/acronyms to keep up with?
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

depontius wrote:
dmpogo wrote:
depontius wrote:
I'd like to walk through dbus and write some "how do you solve dbus problems" documentation. Take some of the magic out of the strings. It would also be fun to resurrect some sort of dbus-spy program.


Something like dev-util/d-feet ?


Yes, though I thought that I'd heard once that it had withered. (I just installed it on RedHat at work.) At home portage gives me a royal mess when I try "emerge -ptv d-feet", between USE flags, slots, etc. I tried a few simple workarounds and still have slot problems, it'll take more later. In the meantime a search for "d-feet tutorial" yields some interesting and helpful links. However the "images" link for d-feet is entirely humorous.

As I said, there are wishes and there is time, and the two aren't often present together.


Yep, indeed, plenty of dependencies, and it would be good to have a lighter analogue !
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