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gerard82
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 3:04 pm    Post subject: systemd Reply with quote

From time to time I browse Distrowatch.
Am I wrong or are most binary distro's using systemd?
Even Sabayon uses it.
Me,I'd like to stick with openrc.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Most binary distributions that use Gnome3 use systemd because it's required for it... I suppose the main reason for systemd is tighter integration with the desktop? Which is unnecessary for a server...

Flexible systems that can use something other than Gnome3 will tend to grassroot "normal" init systems...
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 11:00 am    Post subject: Re: systemd Reply with quote

gerard82 wrote:
Even Sabayon uses it.
Even Sabayon? Oh my... I used to use sabayon everytime I'd need a quick minimal linux VM installed that is a) binary and b) not too far from gentoo.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For me, I'll switch to a static dev before I go down the road of using systemd,
and if no distro including gentoo offers that choice, then I'll do what I was doing
for years before I started using gentoo, I'll build what I want from scratch.
Yes it's a touch more time consuming but it will be just what I want.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 3:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose wrote:
...
and if no distro including gentoo offers that choice, then I'll do what I was doing
for years before I started using gentoo, I'll build what I want from scratch.
Yes it's a touch more time consuming but it will be just what I want.

If Systemd at the end results in a meltdown, what you guys all predict:

Wouldn't it be helpfull to conserve some of the Linux heritage to rescue the knowledge you have. Why not building a conservative portage tree of its own of that old valuable virtues?

In Europe all over the place we have institutions to preserve old techniques and knowledge. This done for the Linux world would be a cultural challenge of responsibility! Yes, we have archives of decades old installation media (eg Debian). But that is not what I mean: Building a _modern_ usable system with traditional and approved techniques!

Otherwise nobody knows any thing about it any more some years from now :(
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 4:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ulenrich wrote:
Anon-E-moose wrote:
...
and if no distro including gentoo offers that choice, then I'll do what I was doing
for years before I started using gentoo, I'll build what I want from scratch.
Yes it's a touch more time consuming but it will be just what I want.

If Systemd at the end results in a meltdown, what you guys all predict:

Wouldn't it be helpfull to conserve some of the Linux heritage to rescue the knowledge you have. Why not building a conservative portage tree of its own of that old valuable virtues?

In Europe all over the place we have institutions to preserve old techniques and knowledge. This done for the Linux world would be a cultural challenge of responsibility! Yes, we have archives of decades old installation media (eg Debian). But that is not what I mean: Building a _modern_ usable system with traditional and approved techniques!

Otherwise nobody knows any thing about it any more some years from now :(


I care first and foremost about my systems working...

I'm not going to go out of my way to preserve an entire repository of software because the devs (Gentoo, the Gentoo Council, RH/systemd/freedesktop, etc) decided to shoot themselves in the foot because fanaticism got the better part of them, trumping logic. A member of the Council intentionally LIED to the Council and despite the promises of him coming here to explain himself, he still hasn't. There are a number of Gentoo devs that are openly hostile to anyone not on the systemd bandwagon and then there are users, like you, whom inject themselves into every thread where someone says "maybe systemd isn't the greatest idea in the world and we should take a step back and look at things."

The systemd fanatics want to go down the road of systemd and shout down anyone trying to warn them that maybe it isn't the greatest idea, that's fine. It's YOUR political crusade. Me? I just want my systems to work. I'm not here to fight a political battle. I use the best tool for the job and, for the last several years, that has been Gentoo. If the devs/Council decide to make Gentoo a tool that I consider broken, I'm not going to fight it, I'm going to go back to what I had before - a custom LFS type system. Should Linux become unusable because of the actions of the RH/systemd/fdo people, I will switch to BSD.

See, that's the thing. I've been using Linux for almost 20 years because Linux is the right tool for my work. It's not because I'm anti-MS, it's not because I'm looking to turn Linux into Windows, it's not because I have a fetish for OSX but don't want to pay the apple premium. It's because of what currently exists. And if the people that are forcing Linux to become unusable for whatever crusade they're fighting for have their way, I will simply move to another tool.

Now, if people get so caught up in their zealotry that they shut out everyone else, it's on them to repair the damage they've done. Don't expect everyone else to be there looking to fix the mistakes you've made and the bridges you've burned. In fact, we've already gotten burned numerous times by the people leading this charge on their previous projects and anyone looking at the spin and FUD they spew should be able to see that they will do and say anything to have their way, regardless of the technical merits. If those are the people you want to hitch the future of the community on, more power to you. But I will not be a part of that community and I'm sure they've already pushed others away too.

So, maybe you should look into the mirror if you're worried about preserving other options. Maybe the devs and Council should actually do a little soul searching before they go around playing the FUD or attack games themselves or go around intentionally breaking systems that have functioned for decades for political reasons. I've done what I can to point out the flaws and yet people still can't bother to use the search function and constantly rehash the same discussion or simply resort to trolling to silence those of us that disagree. Some devs have been outright rude and hostile to other devs and projects that offer an alternative to their own. That's not a way to win friends, it's not a way to build or maintain a community. You guys wanted the ball, the playground and to unilaterally change the rules any time it suits you. Don't be surprised when we no longer want to play with you.

And for what it's worth, the more I delve into things and see the way certain devs behave, the less I want to use their packages. I don't trust them to NOT use their maintainership to harm my system. In effect, their crusades have blinded them to the harm they could intentionally cause and I see too much potential for them to trojan my system for the sake of their politics.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 5:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree saellaven, but I've gotten tired of even trying to write up much of what you say.
People make their own decisions, and it's not up to me to spend my time setting up something
for when the inevitable collapse occurs. If at that time people have questions, I'll try and answer
but I have no desire to create a new distro as it's very time consuming to do it by oneself.

I've also been a long time user of linux, early on swapping it out for sco at one of the places I worked,
and that was pre 1.0. I was playing with minix when Linus made the famous announcement about
wanting to create a new kernel. I've worked on sysV and up as well as bsd systems. So I can go any
which way. I much prefer any *nix variant to windows or mac systems for that matter. Just a personal choice.

Anyway wasn't trying to stir up anything with what I said.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 6:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose wrote:
I agree saellaven, but I've gotten tired of even trying to write up much of what you say.
People make their own decisions, and it's not up to me to spend my time setting up something
for when the inevitable collapse occurs. If at that time people have questions, I'll try and answer
but I have no desire to create a new distro as it's very time consuming to do it by oneself.


I've reached the point where I'm just going to throw my hands up in the air too.

The systemd zealots can have the bed they've made for themselves. They've long made it clear that other opinions and options are not welcome, often abusing their positions to exclude or ridicule them.

If that's how they want it, I'm not going to go out of my way to reach a hand out to them. I'll support those that continue to try, but I expect it to be fruitless. Instead of expending my effort to contribute to Gentoo, I'll spend my time planning my own contingencies to leave since we're not wanted by the "in crowd" around here.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose wrote:
... , and it's not up to me to spend my time setting up something
for when the inevitable collapse occurs. If at that time people have questions, I'll try and answer
but I have no desire to create a new distro as it's very time consuming to do it by oneself.

@Anon-E-moose
I didn't call you personaly doing it: All around I can see the high energy of hatred against Systemd. Why not turn it into love to something? My guess: many people out there would like to support this idea. If you look at other areas where current development is about to abolish approved techniques, people are standing up finding their time and energy to keep it alive (e.g. mechanical cars, where current cars are computers on four wires).

Now is the time you'll "try and answer" questions about it. But years from now whoever will know then ...

@Anon-E-moose, best wishes and thank you for your cool mood!
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ulenrich wrote:
Anon-E-moose wrote:
... , and it's not up to me to spend my time setting up something
for when the inevitable collapse occurs. If at that time people have questions, I'll try and answer
but I have no desire to create a new distro as it's very time consuming to do it by oneself.

@Anon-E-moose
I didn't call you personaly doing it: All around I can see the high energy of hatred against Systemd. Why not turn it into love to something? My guess: many people out there would like to support this idea. If you look at other areas where current development is about to abolish approved techniques, people are standing up finding their time and energy to keep it alive (e.g. mechanical cars, where current cars are computers on four wires).

Now is the time you'll "try and answer" questions about it. But years from now whoever will know then ...

@Anon-E-moose, best wishes and thank you for your cool mood!


like the udev maintainer mocking eudev and constantly slamming the alternate project? or like the openrc lead deliberately ignoring patches that fix the /usr problem for openrc while abusing his position on the Council to say there are no other options, so they should take his request to eliminate a separate /usr on face value?

I'm still waiting for WilliamH to come to the forums and explain himself, as TomWij said he would...

With devs like these, why would I want to contribute to Gentoo, much less an alternate project underneath it that competes with the political agenda of the current devs?
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@saellaven, there are ten other threads in the forums about your "big" initramfs issue. Not counted all the other you poisoned with this obsession ...
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ulenrich wrote:
@saellaven, there are ten other threads in the forums about your "big" initramfs issue. Not counted all the other you poisoned ...


funny how you need to interject on EVERY thread that mentions systemd by name and even many of those that simply imply systemd, and have done so for more than a year.

Again, I reiterate. You like systemd. Good for you. You are a zealot in that you don't really care about anyone that doesn't like it and would prefer us to just shut up rather than point out its flaws.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@ulenrich,
Are you married to systemd?

Where I live you can sometimes see old crafts like making wooden shoes by hand.
So that is being preserved but just as entertainment.

I have nothing against a new way to boot my system.
The only condition I have is that it runs the way I want and be sane coding.
Gerard.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

saellaven wrote:
I'm still waiting for WilliamH to come to the forums and explain himself, as TomWij said he would...


That was asked, but he can't use the forums due to medical reasons; so, feel free to contact him by other means (Mail / IRC).

ulenrich wrote:
@saellaven, there are ten other threads in the forums about your "big" initramfs issue. Not counted all the other you poisoned with this obsession ...


Just that there is a topic (eg. initramfs issue) doesn't mean that there can be only one discussion for that topic, it's normal for a topic to have multiple discussions; one which has a patch, another discussing how to improve it, another one ..., , and so on...

saellaven wrote:
funny how you need to interject on EVERY thread that mentions systemd by name and even many of those that simply imply systemd, and have done so for more than a year.


Discussions about systemd attract multiple parties and not just those that hate it, that's normal; whether it is interjecting is a subjective view on it, although the reports lately can be perceived that way.

saellaven wrote:
would prefer us to just shut up rather than point out its flaws.


Maybe, maybe not; consider what you are trying to reach with pointing out the flaws and whether that will be reached by doing so. You can make this decision up for yourself; so, indeed nobody else should point that out. Some believe that their participation will result in change, others believe they ended up wasting their time, yet another just does it for fun and yet another wants to improve his discussion skills and the list goes on...

I just hope nobody is 100% convinced of reaching a change by their participation in this thread; there are other ways to reach so, not by a small talk discussion between a few folks sitting in a side street...


Last edited by TomWij on Fri Nov 08, 2013 7:06 pm; edited 1 time in total
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saellaven
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 6:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TomWij wrote:
saellaven wrote:
I'm still waiting for WilliamH to come to the forums and explain himself, as TomWij said he would...


That was asked, but he can't use the forums due to medical reasons; so, feel free to contact him by other means (Mail / IRC).


He can take his time and write out a full public statement.

I'm not going to go on IRC or hide behind email. I want a public discussion.

HE became a Council member. HE lied directly to the Council when he said there were no other options after making the elimination of a separate /usr his first priority as a Council member. I question his lead over openrc and whether or not he's intentionally crippling it to favor systemd.

I know nothing of his medical condition, but if he can post to IRC or email, he can post here or he can send you an email for you to post on his behalf in response.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gerard82 wrote:
@ulenrich,
Are you married to systemd?

Both of the following not long ago:
ulenrich wrote:
If you want to learn fundamentally about init system
Openrc
is easy and transparent to begin with!

ulenrich wrote:
One funny reply to the Debian decision thread at
http://phoronix.com/forums/showthread.php?86087-Debian-To-Switch-To-Systemd-Or-Upstart&p=366569#post366569
Quote:
As systemd user it would be nice to see Debian using systemd, but having a counterweight against systemd with them using upstart would also be nice.

At this moment what I feel. Many Openrc fans speaking out there ...

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

saellaven wrote:
I'm not going to go on IRC or hide behind email. I want a public discussion.


Mailing lists and IRC are public; for example, you can invite him to respond to your questions on the gentoo-user ML, or talk in something like #gentoo-chat or some similar appropriate channel.

saellaven wrote:
I know nothing of his medical condition, but if he can post to IRC or email, he can post here or he can send you an email for you to post on his behalf in response.


An audiovisual aid for an old custom styled heavily adjusted phpBB forum, I doubt that that exists; neither am I going to play a "shoot the messenger" game when you can just directly talk trough various other media yourself.


Last edited by TomWij on Fri Nov 08, 2013 7:16 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ulenrich wrote:
All around I can see the high energy of hatred against Systemd.


I don't hate anyone or anything, certainly not a software package.
I prefer not to use it, and I dislike being forced to by others taking away choice.
Simple as that.

You should be able to understand what I just said.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TomWij wrote:
saellaven wrote:
I'm not going to go on IRC or hide behind email. I want a public discussion.


Mailing lists are public; for example, you can invite him to respond to your questions on the gentoo-user ML.


The mailing lists and IRC have a long history of the people in charge playing favorites with the devs. I want things out in the public, not to just end up banned from the mailing list because I intend to call out WilliamH specifically and several devs and the Council in general.

Actually, you know what...

I don't care anymore. You guys can have Gentoo and you can ruin Gentoo while telling us you're looking to help facilitate discussion while you don't care what we say (those are your own words). I'll plan to migrate back to my own custom LFS.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

saellaven wrote:

The mailing lists and IRC have a long history of the people in charge playing favorites with the devs. I want things out in the public, not to just end up banned from the mailing list because I intend to call out WilliamH specifically and several devs and the Council in general.


You won't be banned from anywhere if you stay civil and can actually back up any claims you make on a personal or technical level. If you do behave civil and back up all these claims you make with facts and are banned or silenced in some way it will be there for you to show people as proof.

I look forward to reading your posts to the mailing list, mainly for the proof you have to back up all the claims you have made lately which have had me rather interested :)
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ulenrich wrote:
All around I can see the high energy of hatred against Systemd.


Just as a side note, because you have been doing this for a while; I just want to say that it is written "systemd". See its main homepage for reference...

Anon-E-moose wrote:
I prefer not to use it, and I dislike being forced to by others taking away choice.


There's a high association between "systemd" and "choice"; however, I have not seen any choice being taken that means that you cannot run anything else than systemd, neither have I seen any choice taken that a particular other service manager or init system is nuked in one or another way. The choices in terms of service managers and init systems are still there. The only particular choice that I irrelevantly see mentioned as part of a discussion is the recent "initramfs for /usr needed" matter; however, systemd is just one of multiple reasons for that. Yet, it is always brought up whenever systemd is mentioned despite it not at all being the main problem; and that's a result of hatred. One or two of the last threads, especially the one started by ulenrich, clearly shows this type of association; and doesn't seem to take into account any other reasoning of writing up an init to handle a specific need, LVM and everything else that's out there. No, let's just point at systemd being the main cause... That's just wrong.

An entire post on /usr without mentioning systemd once can be seen at https://blog.flameeyes.eu/2012/12/my-take-on-the-separate-usr-issue and at https://blog.flameeyes.eu/2013/01/the-boot-process where it interesting to note what Lennart answers on the second one (note hw WilliamH is trying to help the situation; but as he couldn't convince the systemd herd, it didn't happen); it doesn't just stop there, there are users on the gentoo-user ML detailing that as well. Posts from users like Mark David Dumlao are a good read; here are a couple of them: http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.user/269946 showing how LVM would be problematic, http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.user/270303 about syncing up / and /usr, http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.user/270019 having one of the best analogies; and ending up with the conclusion:

Quote:
You might want to say that maybe udev, or maybe this driver, or maybe
this service, or that hardware breaks FHS and therefore Gentoo. But
that's the wrong way of looking at it. when the important parts of
something being boot critical depends on the system.


and it doesn't stop there, here are more: http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.user/270020 where he details the analogy a bit further, http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.user/269972 linking to http://lists.busybox.net/pipermail/busybox/2010-December/074114.html which the reasoning that /usr was made because / got full which can also be found in http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/notes.html right at the end of notes1 stating it is for home directories, and as a last http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.user/269898 showing that the amount of people really bothered about this is relatively small as opposed to the amount of Linux users and servers out there. It's a local problem, not one that affects us on a large scale; so, while we can keep talking locally here for hours, I'm not convinced we'll cause any change on a large scale by keeping that talk here...

saellaven wrote:
The mailing lists and IRC have a long history of the people in charge playing favorites with the devs. I want things out in the public, not to just end up banned from the mailing list because I intend to call out WilliamH specifically and several devs and the Council in general.

Actually, you know what...

I don't care anymore. You guys can have Gentoo and you can ruin Gentoo while telling us you're looking to help facilitate discussion while you don't care what we say (those are your own words). I'll plan to migrate back to my own custom LFS.


You have just contradicted yourself. If you don't facilitate discussion and rather want to call out people (those are your own words) and use different media than those that would effectively reach the people you want to address, we cannot really care about what you say; because you do not target the right people in the right place, hence we cannot know about it being said or respond to it. You are after all posting in a "Gentoo Chat" forum, which I perceive more to be informal chit chat than to reach any formal result...

rorgoroth wrote:
You won't be banned from anywhere if you stay civil and can actually back up any claims you make on a personal or technical level. If you do behave civil and back up all these claims you make with facts and are banned or silenced in some way it will be there for you to show people as proof.

I look forward to reading your posts to the mailing list, mainly for the proof you have to back up all the claims you have made lately which have had me rather interested :)


+1 A formal approach gets you either understanding or results; an informal approach kind of leads you nowhere, with possible consequences; if this statement doesn't hold, then only then there would be a form of abuse.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 7:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"They've long made it clear that other opinions and options are not welcome, often abusing their positions to exclude or ridicule them." 1st off, im a total systemd fanboi... i agree with you and i dont....

just like how i like having the options of lilo, grub, grub2, or syslinux... i too would like the options of other boot managers, such as upstart, systemd, open-rc & others. i think that things should stay as they are with openrc as default, and not defunct a system for systemd exclusivity.

i accept /etc/mtab -> /proc/self/mounts symlink, not playing with my /usr directories.... with great power comes great responsibility. government systems and universities use gentoo, if you break it, expect all hell to break loose.

that being said, as with everything else, it goes both ways... new kid on the block may require some minor subtle changes, and openrc is holding draconian control over the system refusing to adapt, or lend a helping hand. calm down boys, gentoo is just a word game on a computer. i say emerge world & stuff gets done... win :twisted:
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 8:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TomWij wrote:
Anon-E-moose wrote:
I prefer not to use it, and I dislike being forced to by others taking away choice.


There's a high association between "systemd" and "choice"; however, I have not seen any choice being taken that means that you cannot run anything else than systemd, neither have I seen any choice taken that a particular other service manager or init system is nuked in one or another way.


As of right now that's true, for gentoo, at least.
You know good and well what I meant.
I see what you're doing, and I'm sure others do too.

I don't like trolling whether users, admins or devs.
So you can respond saying you're not trolling, you can keep silent or any other number of other choices.
I don't care so I won't be responding back as I dislike merry-go-rounds.

Later peeps.
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TomWij
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose wrote:
TomWij wrote:
Anon-E-moose wrote:
I prefer not to use it, and I dislike being forced to by others taking away choice.


There's a high association between "systemd" and "choice"; however, I have not seen any choice being taken that means that you cannot run anything else than systemd, neither have I seen any choice taken that a particular other service manager or init system is nuked in one or another way.


As of right now that's true, for gentoo, at least.
You know good and well what I meant.


Yes, I do; but now imagine this being stated multiple times by multiple users. It creates a general huge sense of FUD about something that doesn't currently exist, might or might not be reached; yet, I don't think this is of any concern until it is ever on the Council agenda. Which from what perceived will not happen any time soon and might perhaps not ever happen; from the ideas that I've seen pass by, a second stage3 / installation medium that comes with systemd alongside the current OpenRC medium is more of something that we would get to see I think. But well, stating that would as well be the opposite of FUD; something like Hope Certainty Believe. But there's eventually only one way to reach such thing; and talking about it here isn't one, now consider what else could make a difference...

Anon-E-moose wrote:
I see what you're doing, and I'm sure others do too.


What?

Anon-E-moose wrote:
I don't like trolling whether users, admins or devs.
So you can respond saying you're not trolling, you can keep silent or any other number of other choices.
I don't care so I won't be responding back as I dislike merry-go-rounds.


Claiming someone trolls and giving no basis for it is a disrespectful way of disagreeing, it does also not deal with the central point of an argument; it should be clear that I agree with your earlier opinion, but just want to point out it is not happening, that is in no way trolling, so there is really no need to merry-go-round because of a lack of care...


Last edited by TomWij on Fri Nov 08, 2013 8:22 pm; edited 2 times in total
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NeddySeagoon
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 8:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Its only a matter of time until systemd depends on Gnome to be able to configure it :)

Like others here, I like my choice and my choice is to avoid systemd.
I will go back to a static /dev before I use systemd, a static /dev mostly just works the way it always did.
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