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1clue
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 4:11 pm    Post subject: Need help building a non-systemd modern system Reply with quote

Hi,

Rather than create yet another systemd hate thread, I'd like to focus on something positive.

I've recently started trying to install a system and what I really, really want to do is start over and make sure I have no code which redhat has trashed. I've googled around a bit, and I'm basically trying to avoid the packages which Linus Torvalds has flamed about. That's as good an indicator as I can come up with I guess.

So I guess I'm looking for non-udev, non-systemd, non-Redhat non-Lennart-Poettering operating system.

Frankly I was contemplating going back to FVWM anyway. Not saying I want an antique system, I'm just saying that gnome will not be in my universe anyway, and I just want my system to work in a way that makes sense.

So for a start, I'm after this:

  1. amd64
  2. KVM/QEMU host
  3. Hardened
  4. STABLE!


I had a thread earlier with regards to this, but it's a bit dirty now with various topics. And now I've found all the systemd drama and I want to do it right. I need to know how, or what to look for.

Thanks.


Last edited by 1clue on Fri Nov 01, 2013 6:06 pm; edited 1 time in total
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ulenrich
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Code:
equery m $(qlist -IC) 2>/dev/null| grep -i -e'redhat' -e'^Location'|grep -A 1 -i -e'redhat'

People fostering the redhat conspiration theory are mostly using Lvm2, which seems to be the Redhat strategie against Oracle Btrfs. One more of the many contradictions of this theory.
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creaker
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 4:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Need help building a non-redhat non-systemd modern syste Reply with quote

1clue wrote:
Hi,
So I guess I'm looking for non-udev, non-systemd, non-Redhat non-Lennart-Poettering operating system.
....
[*]KVM/QEMU host

Thanks.


Afaik, KVM developed by one of RedHat divisions (Qumranet).

Is the system you are going to build will be gentoo based or it may be something else?


ulenrich

What "equery m $(qlist -IC) 2>/dev/null| grep -i -e'redhat' -e'^Location'|grep -A 1 -i -e'redhat'" should show? I have no output from this command (is empty)
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ulenrich
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@creaker, these for me:
Code:
equery m $(qlist -IC) 2>/dev/null| grep -i -e'redhat' -e'^Location'|grep -A 1 -i -e'redhat'
Homepage:    http://people.redhat.com/dhowells/keyutils/
Location:    /portable/portdir/sys-apps/keyutils
--
Maintainer:  agk@redhat.com
Homepage:    http://sources.redhat.com/lvm2/
Location:    /portable/pmaci/sys-fs/lvm2
--
Homepage:    http://people.redhat.com/sgrubb/libcap-ng/
Location:    /portable/portdir/sys-libs/libcap-ng

May be you don't have installed
app-portage/portage-utils
app-portage/gentoolkit
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1clue
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, right now I don't have a running gentoo system with easy access. I have a half-installed KVM host which is currently a guest, and I'm seriously considering starting over on it to get something more in line with what I want.

I was hoping for Gentoo because I want to control exactly what gets installed. It's been awhile since I did anything with Gentoo, but I've installed it several times. I'm in no way an expert.

I've been using KVM/QEMU for awhile now, and it seems to be the best approach toward virtualization for me. I need to be able to have Windows VMs.

I'm also a big fan of LVM2.

I guess what I DON'T like is what's happening with systemd. I'm not saying Redhat is entirely evil, I'm just saying they should keep their noses out of the boot process which has worked fine for so long.

Again, I do NOT want this to turn into yet another systemd flame thread. I'm just trying to get modern alternatives and still achieve my objective.

Please keep conspiracy theory and flaming out of it. There are lots of threads for that on this forum already.
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ulenrich
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 5:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1clue wrote:
OK, right now I don't have a running gentoo system with easy access. I have a half-installed KVM host which is currently a guest, and I'm seriously considering starting over on it to get something more in line with what I want.

I was hoping for Gentoo because I want to control exactly what gets installed. It's been awhile since I did anything with Gentoo, but I've installed it several times. I'm in no way an expert.

I've been using KVM/QEMU for awhile now, and it seems to be the best approach toward virtualization for me. I need to be able to have Windows VMs.

I'm also a big fan of LVM2.

I guess what I DON'T like is what's happening with systemd. I'm not saying Redhat is entirely evil, I'm just saying they should keep their noses out of the boot process which has worked fine for so long.

Again, I do NOT want this to turn into yet another systemd flame thread. I'm just trying to get modern alternatives and still achieve my objective.

Please keep conspiracy theory and flaming out of it. There are lots of threads for that on this forum already.


Why do you name your thread fostering the Redhat-conspiration-theory then? Calling this thread:
"Need help building a non-redhat non-systemd modern system"
is motivating me to tell you about the contradictions of this theory :)
But then you beg me not to. Some psycho double binding here?

And why do write this propaganda in other threads:
1clue wrote:
OK I'm kinda old school on Linux but not really that much of a boot expert. Well, not a boot expert at all, to be more accurate. I've followed the init scripts before and I know how it works, but I don't know any magical spells to make it different.

I've waded through a lot of the systemd rants, and looked at the "case for /usr merge" page. Frankly that page looks a lot like horse droppings, I disagree with every point.

In particular, my main reason for a separate /usr has been for simpler rescue in the event of disk problems. In other words, "myth 9."

I don't care what megabyte number you have on your root partition. The core utilities which are traditionally in /bin and /sbin rarely change if ever. If /var and /tmp are also on different partitions, then root partition is essentially read-only unless you personally change your configuration. That's bound to have fewer errors than something that's continually updated. Not only that, but having Libre Office, Firefox and all that junk (like plugins) that come with it on the boot partition scares the crap out of me.

Again, it all comes to what you plan to do with the box. For a specific purpose machine like a router I'd put it all in the same place. For a workstation it's entirely different.


Why in the world would you not want to establish a minimum environment and system sanity before starting extraneous services?

This page (the case for usr merge) reads like a first-time-user rant.

Maybe I should have looked this up first: What does Linus Torvalds say about systemd? Time to google it.

This is followed by another exactly saying nothing but long post by you there.
Don't you know Linus rants about what he uses and cares about the most?
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

is it going to be headless? systemd is good sauce in the making, give it 5 years and it will have all the bugs ironed out. i came from fedora core 4, and now i find it to be junk. not to say they have not come out with good stuff, just corporate money got into the gears.... i did not like udev 1 bit when it first came around but i dont mind it now. it sounds like static-dev would suffice for your situation, as the box will host VMs and not much else.

so long as you keep the network on a wire u can very easily keep networkmanager off of your system too. wifi is going to require wpa_supplicant. i dont support or know wpa_supplicant yet, but many many others around here do. im not sure if redhat fiddled with dbus or not, though i would not be surprised if they did.....

make.conf uses.... -networkmanager -udev -systemd (and possibly -dbus)
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1clue
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ulenrich wrote:

Why do you name your thread fostering the Redhat-conspiration-theory then? Calling this thread:
"Need help building a non-redhat non-systemd modern system"
is motivating me to tell you about the contradictions of this theory :)
And then you forbid it. Some psycho double binding here?

And why do write this propaganda in other threads:
Don't you know Linus rants about what he uses and cares about the most?


There are other threads for political ranting. I'm trying to build a box. My information about systemd is very new for me, and I was simply trying to be precise. I'll rename the thread more appropriately.

I've posted in some of those other threads which are aimed at the systemd and /usr merge as a discussion in order to find out more, and to express my opinion of what I had read on that topic. The posts I made on those threads were in the same voice as was expressed by others on that thread, including you.

I've found out enough to know I oppose the /usr merge entirely. I've found out enough to know I don't want systemd.

If you want to reply to something I said in another thread, then please go to that thread and rant there. I'll probably respond there. Not here.
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1clue
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

666threesixes666 wrote:
is it going to be headless? systemd is good sauce in the making, give it 5 years and it will have all the bugs ironed out. i came from fedora core 4, and now i find it to be junk. not to say they have not come out with good stuff, just corporate money got into the gears.... i did not like udev 1 bit when it first came around but i dont mind it now. it sounds like static-dev would suffice for your situation, as the box will host VMs and not much else.

so long as you keep the network on a wire u can very easily keep networkmanager off of your system too. wifi is going to require wpa_supplicant. i dont support or know wpa_supplicant yet, but many many others around here do. im not sure if redhat fiddled with dbus or not, though i would not be surprised if they did.....

make.conf uses.... -networkmanager -udev -systemd (and possibly -dbus)


It will not be headless.

The host will be bare-bones. I'll try to have a VM which gets the video card assigned to it. Not necessarily ideal, but I don't need gaming performance out of this desktop.

What systemd might be in 5 years matters not at all. What it is right now is what matters. I do not agree with the /usr merge. Please keep political discussions off this thread or I will ask to have it closed.
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ulenrich
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 6:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1clue wrote:
ulenrich wrote:

Why do you name your thread fostering the Redhat-conspiration-theory then? Calling this thread:
"Need help building a non-redhat non-systemd modern system"
is motivating me to tell you about the contradictions of this theory :)
And then you forbid it. Some psycho double binding here?

And why do write this propaganda in other threads:
Don't you know Linus rants about what he uses and cares about the most?


There are other threads for political ranting. I'm trying to build a box. My information about systemd is very new for me, and I was simply trying to be precise. I'll rename the thread more appropriately.

That solved my issue with your this thread. Calling it now:
"Need help building a non-systemd modern system"
I am curiously waiting to read the answers you'll get regarding the modern system :)
Don't trust people crying the loudest when searching the internet for your opinion :(
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saellaven
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ulenrich wrote:

That solved my issue with your this thread. Calling it now:
"Need help building a non-systemd modern system"
I am curiously waiting to read the answers you'll get regarding the modern system :)
Don't trust people crying the loudest when searching the internet for your opinion :(


Do you ever stop whining about people that don't want systemd? We have different priorities than you and we don't want systemd infecting our systems. If it works for you, congrats, I'm happy for you, but it is broken for me and plenty of other people.


Now, to answer the original poster's question rather than whine about him asking it...

/etc/portage/package.mask
sys-fs/udev
sys-apps/systemd

If eudev is acceptable (it is a fork of udev without all the systemd baggage), install your system as normal and see SteveL's patches to make sure /usr gets mounted without an initramfs.

If you want to avoid eudev and all of the *kit stuff, see NeddySeagoon's Olde Fashioned Gentoo, but be forewarned that his setup still uses an initramfs.

Personally, first and foremost, I'm looking to avoid the initramfs all together, so I went with SteveL's patches. As I get time, I intend to go through and get rid of all of the other stuff too, including eudev, *kit, etc.
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1clue
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 6:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The troll has been reported. Enough of that.

@saellaven:

Thanks for your support.

I'll look at both setups. I don't really like consolekit but I also don't like initramfs either.

Maybe I can rescue my existing half-installed system.

Thanks.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What saellaven said: you can use those patches with "vanilla" udev as well (that's what i've been doing for the last 2 years.)

Additionally, you might want to get rid of nubkit: on KDE this means you can't use KMail, so I switched to mutt instead, after more than a decade on KMail; I would not go back now, even if they were to see the light and get rid of semantic-craptop, along with its insane requirement for a full-blown production MySQL server on every laptop and desktop that just needs a DE.
mutt is simply beautiful, once you have it setup, and incredibly light-weight. I love that I can start up another instance, whenever I like; this comes in handy sometimes when I am in the middle of a mail, and want to do something else, like read news. It also has excellent support for IMAP/gmail et al, and also has inn net-news for gmane and the like.

So I have the following in make.conf USE: "-consolekit -policykit -semantic-desktop -udisks -upower" as well as -hal (just in case.)
Note if you are using KDE, you will need to add -mysql for qtsql, in /etc/portage/package.use; I have
Code:
dev-qt/qtsql postgres -mysql
kde-base/knode -kontact
# TODO patch kdelibs
app-misc/strigi -clucene -hyperestraier -fam -exif -ffmpeg
This is because it's forced on in the profile for that package, although not defaulted on in the ebuild. I still love KDE, and Konversation works beautifully; knode I had to remove as it also wanted to play akonadi games. strigi was pulled in with 4.10, which dropped the semantic-desktop flag, although it's back in 4.11; not tried it yet. This way strigi can't do much even if it does mysteriously get invoked (I have it switched off in System Settings, though it's been a while since I looked there) and it certainly won't start pulling in crap I don't need. I really am not enamoured with the idea of a background task churning through all my files: if I wanted that I'd use slocate instead. Even more so when it requires an insane amount of clearly overblown dependencies.

Finally, KDE works as slickly as 3.5 used to. :-)

Oh creaker also started work on a nice UI for auto-mounting in KDE (well, Qt) if you don't want to use pmount. (Linked from Dominique's post.)
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a system setup that I think fits your description. My recipe is as follows:

mask systemd, virtual/udev, upower, udisks, *kits, pulseaudio, etc.

Install busybox +mdev Switch to mdev in the boot process. pmount is a reliable way to handle the auto mounting of media.
https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Mdev

I use i3 and I don't miss anything in terms of functionality. The masks should provide warnings whenever you try to install and incomparable package.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 10:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Need help building a non-systemd modern system Reply with quote

1clue wrote:
Frankly I was contemplating going back to FVWM anyway.

fvwm-crystal has had dramatic improvements (there's a thread in the forums). You might want to try the most current version from the mv overlay which has some issues with /bin/sh being a symlink to dash sorted out. (If you use openrc, you will robably want the latter...)
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2013 5:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ulenrich wrote:
But then you beg me not to. Some psycho double binding here?
Given that the phrasing there could rather easily be taken quite badly, take the extra moment to disambiguate, for instance, psychological from, for instance, psychopathic. It will help make your time here more peaceful and less brief.
ulenrich wrote:
And why do write this propaganda in other threads:
Please do not import arguments from other topics like that, there are plenty of things to argue about here already.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2013 11:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:
I still love KDE


It looks like KDE will be tied to systemd via kwin in future. From a recent Martin Gräßlin Google+ post

Quote:
"I do hope Debian decides for systemd. It's important for running KWin on top of Wayland and if Debian as a base would not provide this i would be forced to switch distros. Arch seems to be very popular among kde devs nowadays...


Although I have not yet been in a position to judge the merits of systemd, from a philosophical perspective it seems(to me) to oppose the founding principles of linux. Hopefully I am wrong, still trying to distill the mass of conflicting views. :(
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2013 12:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1clue,

how far back do you want to go?
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1clue
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2013 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This particular install won't have a window manager. It's going to be a KVM host using Neddy's formula for hardened KVM.

The caveat is that it has a dual-head video card that I want to use, and I'll donate that to some VM. So it will need a driver. Probably the nvidia commercial driver.

I think the entire Gentoo KVM/QEMU host will be on one partition. I'll have other storage on lvm2 for VMs.

So this host needs:

  1. KVM/QEMU
  2. Video driver (non-free nvidia)
  3. LVM/RAID tools
  4. hardware tools


I'm thinking /var (especially log) will be on a logical volume, as will swap. Maybe the portage directories too.

Thanks.
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