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When is Wayland going to replace X11?
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pjp
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2013 2:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wildhorse wrote:
pjp wrote:
What's really missing is an RDP equivalent for *nix. A shame they didn't work on that instead.
You are looking for Microsoft Windows style solution for a problem that has never been one in the X11 world. Anyway, there is NX NoMachine.
You're too literal. I'm not suggesting they should implement RDP. I'm saying all versions of VNC which I have used, suck. And I'm surprised no one has come up with a solution for *nix that works as well as RDP does for Windows. I've used NX NoMachine.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2013 4:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
You're too literal. I'm not suggesting they should implement RDP. I'm saying all versions of VNC which I have used, suck. And I'm surprised no one has come up with a solution for *nix that works as well as RDP does for Windows. I've used NX NoMachine.
Perhaps you should define the problem that you want to solve with RDP for X11 (which BTW can be done) before you search for RDP as solution. Remind you that RDP was created because Microsoft Windows had a problem, not X11.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2013 11:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RDP is a major security gaper.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2013 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mrsteven wrote:
pjp wrote:
systemd, replacing X.


Ssssh, don't give them any ideas, otherwise they might actually merge a display server into systemd. So called "reasons" might be:
  • bootsplash
  • graphical configuration of devices, like in Windows
  • displaying the journal on the screen all the time, of course transported via a nice binary protocol (close to the on-disk format) added as an extension to the display server (the extension can't be disabled, though)



that is unfair. Of course it would be possible to disable to extension. But that would also disable cgroups, hardware acceleration and powermanagment.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2013 5:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

energyman76b wrote:
mrsteven wrote:
pjp wrote:
systemd, replacing X.


Ssssh, don't give them any ideas, otherwise they might actually merge a display server into systemd. So called "reasons" might be:
  • bootsplash
  • graphical configuration of devices, like in Windows
  • displaying the journal on the screen all the time, of course transported via a nice binary protocol (close to the on-disk format) added as an extension to the display server (the extension can't be disabled, though)



that is unfair. Of course it would be possible to disable to extension. But that would also disable cgroups, hardware acceleration and powermanagment.


...and bootsplash and hardware configuration. But of course "you are not forced to use it" (Item 19 in http://0pointer.de/blog/projects/the-biggest-myths.html), except if you want to use GNOME.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2013 8:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wildhorse wrote:
Perhaps you should define the problem that you want to solve with RDP for X11 (which BTW can be done) before you search for RDP as solution. Remind you that RDP was created because Microsoft Windows had a problem, not X11.
I don't understand why you keep mixing the two. RDP provides remote GUI access with near native performance. I've not seen any comparable *nix solution which works a 1/4th as well. THAT is what I'm saying would be nice to see on *nix.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2013 9:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
wildhorse wrote:
Perhaps you should define the problem that you want to solve with RDP for X11 (which BTW can be done) before you search for RDP as solution. Remind you that RDP was created because Microsoft Windows had a problem, not X11.
I don't understand why you keep mixing the two. RDP provides remote GUI access with near native performance. I've not seen any comparable *nix solution which works a 1/4th as well. THAT is what I'm saying would be nice to see on *nix.


and you can't have that with X. You might be able to get it with wayland.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2013 10:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My 2c as someone who dug in both X and wayland code:

Salahx and energyman already gave some good insights and explanations. As an end-user wayland wont give much visible benefit over X except for no tearing (videos & moving+resizing of clients) and being faster (smaller, less overhead code base).

To a developer of low(er) level gfx, wayland is a huge change and a massive improvements. *Very* lightweight core protocol that elegantly covers all basic use cases for a compositing display server/shell. Gone are the days of clunky X extensions, async X calls that are impossible to sync on and outdated bloat legacy sh*t you have to deal with.

When is it going to replace X? Not very soon. Developing a good display system that covers all application use cases and is transparently compatible with X is a massive task that should not be considered lightly. Don't believe me? Go ask Canonical... (did I say f*ck you Mir? I believe you just did, Bob)
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2013 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

zixnub wrote:
async X calls that are impossible to sync on and outdated bloat legacy sh*t you have to deal with.

async is the best option for network, sync is optimal for gaming.
That why I see XWayland as the best option, gamess will be wayland only, X will be used for networked apps, optimized toolkits could even choose whether to use wayland native or X if the display is remote.
Unless they want to develop an async layer over wayland to make usable over the network ...
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2013 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yesterday I was using my notebook to see a movie in 1920x1080 resolution. There was tearing every fucking frame :x

I cannot wait until Wayland get usable and be able to see my videos without this sucking effect.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2013 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rudregues wrote:
Yesterday I was using my notebook to see a movie in 1920x1080 resolution. There was tearing every fucking frame :x

I cannot wait until Wayland get usable and be able to see my videos without this sucking effect.
Wayland will change that will it?
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2013 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sikpuppy wrote:
rudregues wrote:
Yesterday I was using my notebook to see a movie in 1920x1080 resolution. There was tearing every fucking frame :x

I cannot wait until Wayland get usable and be able to see my videos without this sucking effect.
Wayland will change that will it?


well :lol: with wayland every frame is perfect :lol: :lol: :lol:


BTW is that an Intel graphics? If yes did you try
Code:
Option TearFree Enable

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2013 9:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

erm67 wrote:
well :lol: with wayland every frame is perfect :lol: :lol: :lol:
BTW is that an Intel graphics? If yes did you try
I don't know why, but I feel a little sarcasm there :roll: hahhahaa

erm67 wrote:
Code:
Option TearFree Enable
It's AMD :/
Anyway thanks for the tip, since I want buy a new Intel powered notebook
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Last edited by rudregues on Sun Oct 27, 2013 5:37 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2013 10:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

erm67 wrote:
zixnub wrote:
async X calls that are impossible to sync on and outdated bloat legacy sh*t you have to deal with.

async is the best option for network, sync is optimal for gaming.
That why I see XWayland as the best option, gamess will be wayland only, X will be used for networked apps, optimized toolkits could even choose whether to use wayland native or X if the display is remote.
Unless they want to develop an async layer over wayland to make usable over the network ...


with X you don't know when a command is executed and there is no way to force a set of commands to be executed during a v-sync hence tearing occurs (unless you go the route of ubuntu and render everything in an composite opengl context where the driver will give you that option, but then you force the user to have hw acceleration).

the wayland protocol is fully async btw, the X protocol is too but the widely used Xlib implementation is not, (xcb is). The wayland protocol is also very small, only the part needed to communicate between a client and the server is defined. Everything else is/should be handled internally by the wayland compositor itself (shell, compositing, window management etc.). This allows for critical display server commands to be precisely internally executed in regards to a v-sync without relying on a hw driver.

Xwayland is an X server that has a special driver that basically outputs it's rendering buffer(s) to the wayland compositor who then incorporates it in it's scene graph. Games will use whatever higher/medium level opengl toolkit and will/should not care if they run on X or wayland. So XWayland will/should only be used by those X programs that are no longer maintained.

The wayland protocol does not lend itself to be used over network as shared memory file descriptors are passed between the client and the server.

unrelated to your reply:

I keep hearing the same argument how remote displaying in X is really an advantage that wayland doesn't have. Energyman already said it. Remote X is about as efficient as sending the entire application (or even the entire rootwindow=entire visible screen) pixmap uncompressed to the other side. Why? because no toolkit (except for maybe motif) uses pure old school core binary X commands. They all use extensions that are unsupported over network. To resolve this, the application is first rendered on the server and then the output pixmap is send to the other machine. Pure X awesomeness! ...
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 27, 2013 3:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
wildhorse wrote:
Perhaps you should define the problem that you want to solve with RDP for X11 (which BTW can be done) before you search for RDP as solution. Remind you that RDP was created because Microsoft Windows had a problem, not X11.
I don't understand why you keep mixing the two. RDP provides remote GUI access with near native performance. I've not seen any comparable *nix solution which works a 1/4th as well. THAT is what I'm saying would be nice to see on *nix.


Nice to hear someone confirm this, one time trying to remote access from android, for what I needed practilally zero latency, VNC slowness scared the hell outta me. Luckily I found freeRDP app. Then I found out that VNC protocol never was a finished design. VNC is NOT a remote solution.

I hope wayland has a solution for this. If it's possible to stream youtube vids in 1080p flawlessly, remote app should be even simpler.

mm... I haven't tried ssh + X though.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 27, 2013 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KDE was running very well on Wayland already back in June, with a few minor hacks. It can't be that far away from shipping.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 27, 2013 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RDP backend for Weston (Wayland's reference compositor), anyone?
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 27, 2013 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

zixnub wrote:

Xwayland is an X server that has a special driver that basically outputs it's rendering buffer(s) to the wayland compositor who then incorporates it in it's scene graph. Games will use whatever higher/medium level opengl toolkit and will/should not care if they run on X or wayland. So XWayland will/should only be used by those X programs that are no longer maintained.

The wayland protocol does not lend itself to be used over network as shared memory file descriptors are passed between the client and the server.


Yeah, like gusar said freerdp over wayland is probably better, Microsoft stole it shamelessly with bad manners from citrix, stealing stolen code is good :-) (Yeah ok, it was just a joke)

zixnub wrote:

unrelated to your reply:

I keep hearing the same argument how remote displaying in X is really an advantage that wayland doesn't have. Energyman already said it. Remote X is about as efficient as sending the entire application (or even the entire rootwindow=entire visible screen) pixmap uncompressed to the other side. Why? because no toolkit (except for maybe motif) uses pure old school core binary X commands. They all use extensions that are unsupported over network. To resolve this, the application is first rendered on the server and then the output pixmap is send to the other machine. Pure X awesomeness! ...


In fact since the times of motif is pretty unusable over the network, but to be honest I remember that in the old times of unix Black and White tektronic XTerminals were almost usable over the netwok but CDE (motif) graphic terminals already needed a dedicated high speed (for the times) network connection for the X protocol .....
I think I stopped using it over the network when the KDE came out (it was totally unusable).
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 27, 2013 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I remember using some X apps over the universities network in the late nineties.

It was hard to get it working (you had to follow lots and lots of instructions) AND it was unbearable slow. Nice gag - the windows 98 users couldn't do it, but not really usable.
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