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When is Wayland going to replace X11?
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salahx
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 10:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i'll be some time before Wayland can replace X11. While X11 carries a lot of baggage from days of yore, it also carred useful stuff which is out of scope for Wwayland and pushed down into another layer.

Effectively there are 5 layers in Wayland:

    The core Wayland protocol - handles buffer exchange and input
    The compositor - actually draws the stuff on the screen
    The Shell protocol - handles desktop interaction (windows, minize, maximize, fullscreen, etc)
    The toolkit - draws the widgets (Gtk+, Qt)
    The application


The problem is this heirarchy to put varius X things. For example, should window decoration be dome by the compositor, the shell or the tookit? If its pushed into the upper layers, you burden the protocol with more details (and increased bloat), if it pushed further down applications may not behave consistenly (in the case of window decorations, if the compositor and the toolkit don't agree, you wind up with either doubly-decorated windows or undecroated windows). Likewise there are concept in X that have no equivlent in Wayland, for example there is no concept of "global" screen coordinates. There are unasnwered question on accessibility as to where THOSE hooks will go (if we put in higher up its more consistent but it breaks isolation, if its pushed downwards accessibly feature may differ or even be unavaiable among applications).

XWaylnd is a lot easier to realize since we know what layers go where on X, but ultimately we're trying to move away from that.
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energyman76b
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 10:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

II) “X is Network Transparent.” Wrong. Its not. Core X and DRI-1 were network transparent. No one uses either one. Shared-Memory, DRI-2 and DRI-3000 are NOT network transparent, they do NOT work over the network. Modern day X comes down to synchronous, poorly done VNC. If it was poorly done, async, VNC then maybe we could make it work. But its not. Xlib is synchronous (and the movement to XCB is a slow one) which makes networking a NIGHTMARE.

http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=x_wayland_situation&num=3
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 12:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dr.Willy wrote:
sikpuppy wrote:
So can X...

Only if you use the "classical X" graphics.
Which you dont.
So that's out then. I still think it's going to be ages before anything mind bendingly good is going to come out of the Wayland repository.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 1:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If we can't even get linux audio cleaned up, what makes anybody think we can get linux graphics straightened out? :lol:

Also, what's with this "Wayland" crap for a name? Shouldn't it be PulseVideoKit.d or something?
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 2:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
If we can't even get linux audio cleaned up, what makes anybody think we can get linux graphics straightened out? :lol:

Also, what's with this "Wayland" crap for a name? Shouldn't it be PulseVideoKit.d or something?
isn't it Smithers' first name in the Simpsons?

I was hoping they were going to make it part of systemd
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 2:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cokehabit wrote:
Updating things is good otherwise you get left behind. Linux has a great chance to move out of the hobby arena and into the living room, and not hidden behind google or another faceless entity.
Updating things that need updating can be good. Plenty of things have been updated resulting in something much worse.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 12:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know if wayland is going to be good.
Then again there is nothing that would defend X, so ...
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 3:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Once upon a time, Wayland was going to remove the networking functionality which is one of X's strong points. Networking was going to be added as an unimportant "afterthought" which didn't perform as well. Since X works just fine (I'm not saying it can't or shouldn't be improved), I don't see the problem Wayland is solving.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
Once upon a time, Wayland was going to remove the networking functionality which is one of X's strong points. Networking was going to be added as an unimportant "afterthought" which didn't perform as well. Since X works just fine (I'm not saying it can't or shouldn't be improved), I don't see the problem Wayland is solving.


Is attempting to solve this.

Recently also the development of X12 has been announced.

But I bet XWayland will have its time while we are waiting for X12....
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 4:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
Once upon a time, Wayland was going to remove the networking functionality which is one of X's strong points. Networking was going to be added as an unimportant "afterthought" which didn't perform as well. Since X works just fine (I'm not saying it can't or shouldn't be improved), I don't see the problem Wayland is solving.


strong points? It doesn't even really work. So no, it is not a 'strong point'.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"the networking functionality which is one of X's strong points."
Quote:
Some Misconceptions about X and Wayland

II) “X is Network Transparent.” Wrong. Its not. Core X and DRI-1 were network transparent. No one uses either one. Shared-Memory, DRI-2 and DRI-3000 are NOT network transparent, they do NOT work over the network. Modern day X comes down to synchronous, poorly done VNC. If it was poorly done, async, VNC then maybe we could make it work. But its not. Xlib is synchronous (and the movement to XCB is a slow one) which makes networking a NIGHTMARE.
source: http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=x_wayland_situation&num=3 (it's from the link erm67 posted)


PS: I already tested Wayland thanks to RebeccaBlackOS and it really runs without tearing
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

erm67 wrote:
pjp wrote:
Once upon a time, Wayland was going to remove the networking functionality which is one of X's strong points. Networking was going to be added as an unimportant "afterthought" which didn't perform as well. Since X works just fine (I'm not saying it can't or shouldn't be improved), I don't see the problem Wayland is solving.


Is attempting to solve this.

Recently also the development of X12 has been announced.

But I bet XWayland will have its time while we are waiting for X12....
Thanks, I'll take a look at both links.

I just started with the X vs. Wayland one, and the first few (skimming them) seemed more like justification after the fact. I'll read more carefully later.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rudregues wrote:
"the networking functionality which is one of X's strong points."
I never said it was network transparent. But running an X server on my Windows laptop and running the application remotely is pretty useful. Works better than any *nix based VNC solution I've seen (and they all suck).
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
I just started with the X vs. Wayland one, and the first few (skimming them) seemed more like justification after the fact. I'll read more carefully later.

If you have time (45min) watch [Linux.conf.au 2013] - The real story behind Wayland and X
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aidanjt wrote:
Because mainframes and graphical dumb terminals are so mind bogglingly niche there's literally no rational reason what so ever to design an entire graphical architecture around that paradigm. It makes far more sense now to have a local display server and hook mainframey terminal services into that as a plugin to satisfy that niche. The X Windowing System architecture was a great design for the computing users of the 80's, but we're 3 decades on from that point. Nowadays the vast majority of computing devices are small and personal, and rarely with a consistent and reliable network connection, which renders a network display server utterly pointless and needlessly incurs a wasteful overhead penalty and added latency.
I am using one of my Raspberry Pi machines as X server (Gentoo as OS) to work on a large PC which is running simulations (and Gentoo is the OS again, thank you). The X server produces zero noise. The PC is elsewhere. Maybe 3 decades have just not been enough for you to understand the beauty of the X11 concept.
The more things change the more they stay the same.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 5:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hopefully never.

Re-inventing the wheel just to break it by replacing it with squares.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

erm67 wrote:
Is attempting to solve this.
I. I'm no dev, but "wrapping it in more and more extensions and plugins" doesn't sound the least bit like an attempt to fix anything.

II. A lack of people who understand something isn't a flaw of the design. I'm not defending the design or suggesting it doesn't need work.

III. Lacks a coherent thought.

IV. "Huge and stupid." Well, that's well argued. So we're in agreement that simplifying it and removing unnecessary components was a Good Thing.

V. I've never prayed while using X. Sounds like a technical problem with FUD thrown in for effect.

VI. They don't like how fonts are handled.

My favorite though is the complaint in VII that the acknowledge had been fixed. LOL. Though IX is good too.... "a nitpick, but also valid." LOL. They're all nitpicks but also valid.

What it really comes down to is someone didn't like X. There are definitely some issues that need to be fixed, but they didn't address why Wayland and not actually improving X (perhaps assburger's led to some uncooperative interactions? No idea, just asking... it happens). OK, technically they did, but nothing other than "we don't like X." I'm not even saying starting over is a bad thing, but if they're going to kill functionality of X for the sake of composting and wavy window effects, then I'm not interested. The first thing I do on any environment is to disable the ghastly "eye candy." Candy rots your teeth, it'll rot your brain too :mrgreen:


What's really missing is an RDP equivalent for *nix. A shame they didn't work on that instead.


Haven't looked at the X12 link yet. Hopefully distros maintain X along the way.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 7:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wildhorse wrote:
I am using one of my Raspberry Pi machines as X server (Gentoo as OS) to work on a large PC which is running simulations (and Gentoo is the OS again, thank you). The X server produces zero noise. The PC is elsewhere. Maybe 3 decades have just not been enough for you to understand the beauty of the X11 concept.
The more things change the more they stay the same.

Congratulations for being the 1 in 1,000,000 who actually makes use of X11. For the other 99.9999% of us it's a liability.
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Last edited by aidanjt on Thu Oct 24, 2013 7:25 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 7:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dr.Willy wrote:
If you have time (45min) watch [Linux.conf.au 2013] - The real story behind Wayland and X
I've started, but it isn't a very good presentation. I'll get back to it later.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

X12 is basically a stillborn. Pretty much every important Xorg dev is doing wayland developing right now. Nobody is working on X12.

and for anybody who might think that X11 is a good thing:
http://www.art.net/~hopkins/Don/unix-haters/x-windows/disaster.html
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Libertardian denial of reality is wholly unimpressive and unconvincing, and simply serves to demonstrate what a bunch of delusional fools they all are.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
What's really missing is an RDP equivalent for *nix. A shame they didn't work on that instead.
You are looking for Microsoft Windows style solution for a problem that has never been one in the X11 world. Anyway, there is NX NoMachine.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 8:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Basically if you watch the presentation (or read the phoronix article that is basically the same) the biggest complaint of the Xorg developers that moved to Wayland or mir is that they are not allowed to touch the coreX protocol, the recent move of starting the development of X12 is clearly a step to solve this problem, with X12 also the coreX can be changed.
We'll see what will happen, is too soon to call a winner since nobody is really running.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2013 12:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
systemd, replacing X.


Ssssh, don't give them any ideas, otherwise they might actually merge a display server into systemd. So called "reasons" might be:
  • bootsplash
  • graphical configuration of devices, like in Windows
  • displaying the journal on the screen all the time, of course transported via a nice binary protocol (close to the on-disk format) added as an extension to the display server (the extension can't be disabled, though)


Not sure what I think about Wayland. My main concerns are network transparency (don't know if it's solved in a nice way now) and window decorations. I think the latter belong into the compositor for consistency reasons. For novice users this would also make it easier to kill hung applications by just hitting the close button and let the window manager / compositor kill them (just like it's done in KDE).
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2013 1:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wildhorse wrote:
aidanjt wrote:
Because mainframes and graphical dumb terminals are so mind bogglingly niche there's literally no rational reason what so ever to design an entire graphical architecture around that paradigm. It makes far more sense now to have a local display server and hook mainframey terminal services into that as a plugin to satisfy that niche. The X Windowing System architecture was a great design for the computing users of the 80's, but we're 3 decades on from that point. Nowadays the vast majority of computing devices are small and personal, and rarely with a consistent and reliable network connection, which renders a network display server utterly pointless and needlessly incurs a wasteful overhead penalty and added latency.
I am using one of my Raspberry Pi machines as X server (Gentoo as OS) to work on a large PC which is running simulations (and Gentoo is the OS again, thank you). The X server produces zero noise. The PC is elsewhere. Maybe 3 decades have just not been enough for you to understand the beauty of the X11 concept.
The more things change the more they stay the same.

That was an insightful, articulate statement. Who hijacked wildhorse's account?! :P
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2013 1:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mrsteven wrote:
pjp wrote:
systemd, replacing X.


Ssssh, don't give them any ideas, otherwise they might actually merge a display server into systemd.

It would make more sense than many of the other things that have been assimilated.
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