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wswartzendruber
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 1:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
wswartzendruber wrote:
juniper wrote:
wswartzendruber wrote:
Within the United States, I can find no correlation between the percentage of citizens who own at least one gun and the homicide rate. I therefore assert that guns do not cause violence.


facilitate. they facilitate violence.

Cars facilitate DUI accidents. Do you want to ban those as well?


cars have a use other than killing. killing is what guns do.

Hrm...that's odd. I've put over 100 rounds through my AR-15 and haven't killed anyone yet. Maybe I'm doing it wrong.

Anyway, guns are also an amazing self-defense device. Now you have to argue that banning guns will remove them from criminal possession.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 1:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is all the fault of Britain for colonizing us.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 1:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

HAHAHAHA :lol:
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 3:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
It kind of is. [...]strawman
cokehabit wrote:
The availability of guns and the population's willingness to use them are both problems. Don't try to say that one is a problem and the other isn't.
You continue to choose to ignore the fact that the actual problem is not dependent upon guns. Guns are the symptom. A debate about the impact of guns is completely unrelated to why people are killing other people. Look at the SUV motorcycle incident. There was another incident where teenagers beat up some people for honking at them because they didn't drive when the light turned green. Guns were more commonplace in past decades with weaker gun laws, but the incidents were far fewer.

When people refuse to look at the underlying problem and instead promote banning guns, they're part of the anti-gun crowd.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 6:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
Naib wrote:
It kind of is. [...]strawman
cokehabit wrote:
The availability of guns and the population's willingness to use them are both problems. Don't try to say that one is a problem and the other isn't.
You continue to choose to ignore the fact that the actual problem is not dependent upon guns. Guns are the symptom. A debate about the impact of guns is completely unrelated to why people are killing other people. Look at the SUV motorcycle incident. There was another incident where teenagers beat up some people for honking at them because they didn't drive when the light turned green. Guns were more commonplace in past decades with weaker gun laws, but the incidents were far fewer.

When people refuse to look at the underlying problem and instead promote banning guns, they're part of the anti-gun crowd.
That's like saying the symptom of violence is violence. Guns are part of violence. It doesn't go VIOLENCE + GUN = DEATH, you could equally have PEANUT ALLERGY + GUN = DEATH or VIOLENCE + HEART ATTACK = DEATH.

A violent society and people wanting and using them go hand in hand. No society is crime or violence free, no-one is saying that but seeing how you will never eliminate those two why not try to eliminate the horrific and obscene levels of gun deaths?

Just wondering, how many lives would have to be saved to make banning guns worth it? 100? 1000? 10,000?
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 6:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why don't you eliminate alcohol violence in the UK? Some 64% of your violent crime problem (which is twice the size of ours) involves alcohol. It's Alcohol Violence! And unlike guns, the alcohol actually does motivate the violence, rather than simply serving as a tool.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 6:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
Why don't you eliminate alcohol violence in the UK? Some 64% of your violent crime problem (which is twice the size of ours) involves alcohol. It's Alcohol Violence! And unlike guns, the alcohol actually does motivate the violence, rather than simply serving as a tool.
Banning alcohol would decrease violence and violent crime, yes
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 6:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cokehabit wrote:
Just wondering, how many lives would have to be saved to make banning guns worth it? 100? 1000? 10,000?

Well, since collectivist authoritarian tyranny killed a billion people globally in the last century, and the U.S. has about 4.45% of the global population, I would say you'd have to save about 445,000 lives a year in the U.S. alone to even begin to approach justification (since deterring tyranny and invasion is just part of the rationale behind the right to self-defense). So if you want to be able to justify it, you'd need to show that it would save a million or so lives a year in the U.S. alone; then you might have a compelling talking point to open a dialog.

cokehabit wrote:
BoneKracker wrote:
Why don't you eliminate alcohol violence in the UK? Some 64% of your violent crime problem (which is twice the size of ours) involves alcohol. It's Alcohol Violence! And unlike guns, the alcohol actually does motivate the violence, rather than simply serving as a tool.
Banning alcohol would decrease violence and violent crime, yes

That's not what our experience shows. We banned it, and crime went up. Organized crime took over entire towns and cities. Chicago is corrupt like a whore house to this very day because of it.

But, if you think it would work, why aren't you flapping your lips about that, instead of telling us how to run our country?

The only sad thing about this shooting is that he killed a brave teacher instead of the bullies who had been tormenting him.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 10:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
Why don't you eliminate alcohol violence in the UK? Some 64% of your violent crime problem (which is twice the size of ours) involves alcohol. It's Alcohol Violence! And unlike guns, the alcohol actually does motivate the violence, rather than simply serving as a tool.


don't believe your made up stats.
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Well, every group has its nutjobs, and the Second Amendment crowd is no exception.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 10:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
cokehabit wrote:
Just wondering, how many lives would have to be saved to make banning guns worth it? 100? 1000? 10,000?

Well, since collectivist authoritarian tyranny killed a billion people globally in the last century, and the U.S. has about 4.45% of the global population,


I don't see where he has advocated for a violent authoritarian regime.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 11:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
Why don't you eliminate alcohol violence in the UK? Some 64% of your violent crime problem (which is twice the size of ours) involves alcohol. It's Alcohol Violence! And unlike guns, the alcohol actually does motivate the violence, rather than simply serving as a tool.

come now... lets compare apples and apples, not apples and oranges... This is again a school shooting NOT shooting in general
How many Alcohol compounded homicides/violent incidents have occurred in UK schools ? can you list them? can you list the frequency of them?

If you insist on this tu quoque then it must then be again pointed out that UK violence & alcohol is an acknowledged demon so much so that for decades there has been debates on this & how best to approach this... Things have been tried, things are being tried, things are being debated.
The question is has anything been done in America surrounding its violence and why? especially since whenever there is a school shooting the cookieCutter response is "So we have had another shooting, wha... DO NOT TOUCH OUR GUNS!!!!" persistent stonewalling which is backed by legislation...
Now to be fair I know of something that is being trialed, but it is small scale

Now before you then twist this to cars (Again) ... a comparable number of deaths occur from cars as they do from guns, thats nice, BUT there is something like $4M research into car safety to drive this number down. You cannot compare car deaths/homicide to gun death/homicide when one is doing something to reduce/improve. What is being done to look into what can be done to cut the gun numbers? nothing just threaten people with imprisonment if they post research pointing towards anything hinting at gun control...
Now you can't make guns safer... their primary role is to harm BUT what can be done to manage this since right now nothing has been tried, how about something? the something is open to debate BUT I as a scientist fail to see how a valid debate can be had with the threat of litigation existing.
As I have now mentioned in a couple of threads it is the individuals that are the problem so how can you remove guns from them (its one thing to state someone can't get any new guns but then there is the guns they have... ie nothing being done...).
My stance on all this is the kids, be it for guns or healthcare SIMPLY because as an adult you are in control, you can choose what you want todo or not what todo... kids CANNOT and they rely on adults to look after them. Having a system that limits healthcare purely based upon circumstances they can't do anything about (talking about things that are non-life critical but improve their quality of life AND could enable them to excel and be a positive contribution to society).
Take UK and guns... while we have had strict gunlaws for quite some time you could still own in private hands a wide range of gun's There were gun related homicides going on for ages... there was then ONE school shooting and all bets are off and the gov'n went batshit insane and we have never had one since, not only that: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-24626158
I am not saying the US should do what UK did (not only practicality, constitutionally or rationally since us and uk are different) but what occured in the uk was in response to a clear red line & equally alot of the knee jerk reaction mostly surround children (I might not agree with some of the OTT stuff that done, but why does make sense) - smoking, alcohol, road speeds, child services...
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://reason.com/blog/2013/10/22/armed-citizens-may-be-the-solution-to-te

Quote:


"Ask yourself: If that was Denver, Col., if that was Texas, would those guys have been able to spend hours, days, shooting people randomly?" Noble said, referring to states with pro-gun traditions. "What I'm saying is it makes police around the world question their views on gun control. It makes citizens question their views on gun control. You have to ask yourself, 'Is an armed citizenry more necessary now than it was in the past with an evolving threat of terrorism?' This is something that has to be discussed."

"For me it's a profound question," he continued. "People are quick to say 'gun control, people shouldn't be armed,' etc., etc. I think they have to ask themselves: 'Where would you have wanted to be? In a city where there was gun control and no citizens armed if you're in a Westgate mall, or in a place like Denver or Texas?'"
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 3:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
cokehabit wrote:
Just wondering, how many lives would have to be saved to make banning guns worth it? 100? 1000? 10,000?

Well, since collectivist authoritarian tyranny killed a billion people globally in the last century, and the U.S. has about 4.45% of the global population, I would say you'd have to save about 445,000 lives a year in the U.S. alone to even begin to approach justification (since deterring tyranny and invasion is just part of the rationale behind the right to self-defense). So if you want to be able to justify it, you'd need to show that it would save a million or so lives a year in the U.S. alone; then you might have a compelling talking point to open a dialog.
So we're just all opening ourselves to tyranny and invasion?

BoneKracker wrote:
cokehabit wrote:
BoneKracker wrote:
Why don't you eliminate alcohol violence in the UK? Some 64% of your violent crime problem (which is twice the size of ours) involves alcohol. It's Alcohol Violence! And unlike guns, the alcohol actually does motivate the violence, rather than simply serving as a tool.
Banning alcohol would decrease violence and violent crime, yes

That's not what our experience shows. We banned it, and crime went up. Organized crime took over entire towns and cities. Chicago is corrupt like a whore house to this very day because of it.

But, if you think it would work, why aren't you flapping your lips about that, instead of telling us how to run our country?
Yeah crime would probably eventually go up like it did in Chicago. And you country needs all the help it can get.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 4:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darth Marley wrote:
http://reason.com/blog/2013/10/22/armed-citizens-may-be-the-solution-to-te

Quote:


"Ask yourself: If that was Denver, Col., if that was Texas, would those guys have been able to spend hours, days, shooting people randomly?" Noble said, referring to states with pro-gun traditions. "What I'm saying is it makes police around the world question their views on gun control. It makes citizens question their views on gun control. You have to ask yourself, 'Is an armed citizenry more necessary now than it was in the past with an evolving threat of terrorism?' This is something that has to be discussed."

"For me it's a profound question," he continued. "People are quick to say 'gun control, people shouldn't be armed,' etc., etc. I think they have to ask themselves: 'Where would you have wanted to be? In a city where there was gun control and no citizens armed if you're in a Westgate mall, or in a place like Denver or Texas?'"
and yet as it was shown in the naval base shooting, armed people stayed back.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 6:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cokehabit wrote:
That's like saying the symptom of violence is violence.
I don't agree. It isn't even in the remotest sense like saying that at all.

cokehabit wrote:
Guns are part of violence.
They are. They are a tool. They are not the cause of the violence.

cokehabit wrote:
A violent society and people wanting and using them go hand in hand. No society is crime or violence free, no-one is saying that but seeing how you will never eliminate those two why not try to eliminate the horrific and obscene levels of gun deaths?
I don't care to eliminate all violence. But something changed, and it wasn't guns.

cokehabit wrote:
Just wondering, how many lives would have to be saved to make banning guns worth it? 100? 1000? 10,000?
What would the acceptable rate be to stop going after guns? For me, I'm not willing to give up Constitutional Rights for the sake of an ignorant part of the population which chooses to ignore the underlying problem.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 8:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ZOMG Miniskirt Rape.

Meanwhile, little attention is being paid to the 14 year old student who just beat a young teacher to death, because we don't want to talk about that (because no gun was involved, and because, if Obama had a son, he'd look like that).
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 8:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
BoneKracker wrote:
Why don't you eliminate alcohol violence in the UK? Some 64% of your violent crime problem (which is twice the size of ours) involves alcohol. It's Alcohol Violence! And unlike guns, the alcohol actually does motivate the violence, rather than simply serving as a tool.

come now... lets compare apples and apples, not apples and oranges... This is again a school shooting NOT shooting in general
How many Alcohol compounded homicides/violent incidents have occurred in UK schools ? can you list them? can you list the frequency of them?

If you insist on this tu quoque then it must then be again pointed out that UK violence & alcohol is an acknowledged demon so much so that for decades there has been debates on this & how best to approach this... Things have been tried, things are being tried, things are being debated.
The question is has anything been done in America surrounding its violence and why? especially since whenever there is a school shooting the cookieCutter response is "So we have had another shooting, wha... DO NOT TOUCH OUR GUNS!!!!" persistent stonewalling which is backed by legislation...
Now to be fair I know of something that is being trialed, but it is small scale

Now before you then twist this to cars (Again) ... a comparable number of deaths occur from cars as they do from guns, thats nice, BUT there is something like $4M research into car safety to drive this number down. You cannot compare car deaths/homicide to gun death/homicide when one is doing something to reduce/improve. What is being done to look into what can be done to cut the gun numbers? nothing just threaten people with imprisonment if they post research pointing towards anything hinting at gun control...
Now you can't make guns safer... their primary role is to harm BUT what can be done to manage this since right now nothing has been tried, how about something? the something is open to debate BUT I as a scientist fail to see how a valid debate can be had with the threat of litigation existing.
As I have now mentioned in a couple of threads it is the individuals that are the problem so how can you remove guns from them (its one thing to state someone can't get any new guns but then there is the guns they have... ie nothing being done...).
My stance on all this is the kids, be it for guns or healthcare SIMPLY because as an adult you are in control, you can choose what you want todo or not what todo... kids CANNOT and they rely on adults to look after them. Having a system that limits healthcare purely based upon circumstances they can't do anything about (talking about things that are non-life critical but improve their quality of life AND could enable them to excel and be a positive contribution to society).
Take UK and guns... while we have had strict gunlaws for quite some time you could still own in private hands a wide range of gun's There were gun related homicides going on for ages... there was then ONE school shooting and all bets are off and the gov'n went batshit insane and we have never had one since, not only that: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-24626158
I am not saying the US should do what UK did (not only practicality, constitutionally or rationally since us and uk are different) but what occured in the uk was in response to a clear red line & equally alot of the knee jerk reaction mostly surround children (I might not agree with some of the OTT stuff that done, but why does make sense) - smoking, alcohol, road speeds, child services...

tl;dr

Could you give cokehabit and I a one-line summary, because we couldn't be arsed.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 8:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
BoneKracker wrote:
Why don't you eliminate alcohol violence in the UK? Some 64% of your violent crime problem (which is twice the size of ours) involves alcohol. It's Alcohol Violence! And unlike guns, the alcohol actually does motivate the violence, rather than simply serving as a tool.


don't believe your made up stats.

Denial -- it's not just a river in Egypt.

juniper wrote:
BoneKracker wrote:
cokehabit wrote:
Just wondering, how many lives would have to be saved to make banning guns worth it? 100? 1000? 10,000?

Well, since collectivist authoritarian tyranny killed a billion people globally in the last century, and the U.S. has about 4.45% of the global population,


I don't see where he has advocated for a violent authoritarian regime.

I don't to whom "he" refers, but "advocating" has nothing to do with anything. Facts are facts.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 9:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
juniper wrote:
BoneKracker wrote:
Why don't you eliminate alcohol violence in the UK? Some 64% of your violent crime problem (which is twice the size of ours) involves alcohol. It's Alcohol Violence! And unlike guns, the alcohol actually does motivate the violence, rather than simply serving as a tool.


don't believe your made up stats.

Denial -- it's not just a river in Egypt.


you made the assertion. Aren't you willing to back them up? I actually don't deny alcohol is a motivator for violence. Just that the violence isn't so bad. I refer to threads a few weeks ago where your arguments just fizzled out.
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Well, every group has its nutjobs, and the Second Amendment crowd is no exception.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 9:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
juniper wrote:
I don't see where he has advocated for a violent authoritarian regime.

I don't to whom "he" refers, but "advocating" has nothing to do with anything. Facts are facts.


he said gun control. you said you don't like stalin. I said they aren't the same.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 9:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess today must be non sequitur day.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 9:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
I guess today must be non sequitur day.


No. That was yesterday. He said.

cokehabit wrote:
Just wondering, how many lives would have to be saved to make banning guns worth it? 100? 1000? 10,000?


and you replied.

BK wrote:
Well, since collectivist authoritarian tyranny killed a billion people globally in the last century, and the U.S. has about 4.45% of the global population, I would say you'd have to save about 445,000 lives a year in the U.S. alone to even begin to approach justification (since deterring tyranny and invasion is just part of the rationale behind the right to self-defense). So if you want to be able to justify it, you'd need to show that it would save a million or so lives a year in the U.S. alone; then you might have a compelling talking point to open a dialog.


As I have demonstrated before, your guns are not stopping your govt from killing americans. In fact, it is enabling them.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's called a rational argument, and you haven't demonstrated anything. In fact, you repeatedly enter into irrational, illogical, and unsupportable argumentation, every time this issue comes up.

I have showed over and over again that every serious attempt to empirically analyze the situation demonstrates there is no relationship between gun control or gun availability and rates of homicide or violent crime. And, that's entirely aside from the major arguments in favor of the right to self-defense. You, on the other hand, haven't "demonstrated" squat, except the occasional cherry-picked data or anecdotal vignette.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
That's called a rational argument, and you haven't demonstrated anything. In fact, you repeatedly enter into irrational, illogical, and unsupportable argumentation, every time this issue comes up.

I have showed over and over again that every serious attempt to empirically analyze the situation demonstrates there is no relationship between gun control or gun availability and rates of homicide or violent crime. And, that's entirely aside from the major arguments in favor of the right to self-defense. You, on the other hand, haven't "demonstrated" squat, except the occasional cherry-picked data or anecdotal vignette.


I have indeed previously demonstrated and asserted that your govt kills a helluva lot more americans than my govt kill Britons. It isn't even close.

I don't think you have demonstrated anything. you have asserted without guns Stalin will come. That is far from demonstrated.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
Well, since collectivist authoritarian tyranny killed a billion people globally in the last century, and the U.S. has about 4.45% of the global population, I would say you'd have to save about 445,000 lives a year in the U.S. alone to even begin to approach justification (since deterring tyranny and invasion is just part of the rationale behind the right to self-defense). So if you want to be able to justify it, you'd need to show that it would save a million or so lives a year in the U.S. alone; then you might have a compelling talking point to open a dialog.

I like this, can I borrow it from time to time?
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