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mrbassie
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 8:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

gogobebe2 wrote:

I was trying to install WINE on debian. I got the Windows version of Steam and Firefox working :D


Is that because you couldn't find firefox in Debian? If so, it's called iceweasel in the repos. It is firefox with Debian patches and backported security fixes from newer versions of firefox, mozilla got pissy about them doing that way back when, threw their toys out of the pram and told them they couldn't use their trademarked name and logo as I understand it.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 8:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hah, yes, that seems to sum it up quite nicely :D.

gogobebe - try Mint in VirtualBox. It's really a nice Distribution imo, especially if you use the version with Cinnamon as desktop environment (personal taste, though). Funnily enough, I had trouble installing that on my mothers laptop (UEFI issues) so I scrapped it and installed Gentoo :D.
So, have fun with (learning) Linux and don't hesitate to ask questions here. After all, whichever distribution you choose, they're all Linuces and work in a similar way.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just to add to what 1clue said earlier:
1clue wrote:
PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2013 11:04 pm Post subject:
@gogobebe2,

One thing you'll get a lot of is some pretty intense "brand" loyalty. People love to stay completely faithful to a single distro for some reason.

IMO this is nonsense.


I agree that telling someone to stick because of brand loyalty is Nonsense, but a story from personal experience:

I had a professor in college introduce us to all the different brands of Linux, and SCO Unix Version 5. SCO is a paid for product, just like Redhat is in the Linux Variants. All Linux Variants are based on UNIX. See What about all those "Flavors"?

After our project, in which we gave a report on UnixWare 4/Skunk, we listened to all the others give reports on the distribution they had been assigned. The one that caught my attention was Redhat 5.3, now Fedora. That group could not get their distro installed because they never could figure out how to embed lilo in the second partition, as there was no grub. No one on that team wanted to risk losing their windows installs by embedding lilo in the MBR. That night I went home armed with the idea that I was going to do what they could not. 4 days and a weekend later, I had successfully installed lilo in Partition 2, and could boot both Windows and Redhat.

I felt empowered, but could do nothing. You see although I got it installed, I had no idea what to do wth it, so I left it sitting and went hohum back to Windows 98/ME. It gnawed at me for 6 months and more college classes that I got this installed, but it was a brick. I then met a programming professor, who had this ingenious software called Partition Commander. I bought my own copy(Version 5), and was introduced to this Cool Website with a List of All OS'es. I used Partition Commander to Safely install almost every linux on that list.

After trying everyone of them, what someone earlier referred to as distro-hopping, I settled on Redhat again. I was impressed with Redhat 6.2, but once again all I felt comfortable doing was running Software Updater. Every 3 weeks or so, I would login, read patch notes, and run the updater tool. I did this until Redhat sold out its Roots to Corporate America. Feeling let down, I decided to show my support to the OSS community and bought a copy of SuSE 9. Having used Redhat previously, I had to get used to the new Package Manager, Yum. I did and got more comfortable using it, but still didn't understand the power I had. That is until I discovered the Ximian Desktop. The developer that built this idea now works at Novell, who bought SuSE. Ximian Desktop was a souped up version of GNOME 1.5 - 2.0. IT WAS GREAT! I had that Music Player I never could find in my menu, a Napster Clone and Apps that would open office Documents.

I got more and more comfortable using and learning with Ximian as my crutch. I learned why the terminal was so important. I learned how to Read the Manual(back then no Linux Distro was focused on customer service). I learned how to install custom made deb packages from online repositories for games like Pysol. I even found myself wishing I had a more powerful terminal in Windows, knowing that the MS Dos Command Prompt Window was not enough. In 2003 I found Gentoo, I started using Version 2004.0, and have not switched back since. This is because of the configurability aspect of Gentoo. Don't misunderstand me, as Debian and Ubuntu are just as configurable, but it's the fact that the config file is hidden 3 levels deep, and once found, the comment at the top reads,
Code:
#please update this file using it's GUI equivalent. Do not edit by hand.


I hoped you liked my journey down memory lane. I told it because once you find the right distro you will be brand loyal, but you will be comfortable enough to install a VirtualBox with Ubuntu or X flavor distro if you need to for a particular purpose. In this way you won't be brand loyal, which makes both statements correct. If you need pointers come back here, but always remember to return the favor to others by answering what questions you can, not only here, but in general. We hope to see you soon...
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gogobebe2
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

eyoung100 wrote:
Just to add to what 1clue said earlier:
1clue wrote:
PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2013 11:04 pm Post subject:
@gogobebe2,

One thing you'll get a lot of is some pretty intense "brand" loyalty. People love to stay completely faithful to a single distro for some reason.

IMO this is nonsense.


I agree that telling someone to stick because of brand loyalty is Nonsense, but a story from personal experience:

I had a professor in college introduce us to all the different brands of Linux, and SCO Unix Version 5. SCO is a paid for product, just like Redhat is in the Linux Variants. All Linux Variants are based on UNIX. See What about all those "Flavors"?

After our project, in which we gave a report on UnixWare 4/Skunk, we listened to all the others give reports on the distribution they had been assigned. The one that caught my attention was Redhat 5.3, now Fedora. That group could not get their distro installed because they never could figure out how to embed lilo in the second partition, as there was no grub. No one on that team wanted to risk losing their windows installs by embedding lilo in the MBR. That night I went home armed with the idea that I was going to do what they could not. 4 days and a weekend later, I had successfully installed lilo in Partition 2, and could boot both Windows and Redhat.

I felt empowered, but could do nothing. You see although I got it installed, I had no idea what to do wth it, so I left it sitting and went hohum back to Windows 98/ME. It gnawed at me for 6 months and more college classes that I got this installed, but it was a brick. I then met a programming professor, who had this ingenious software called Partition Commander. I bought my own copy(Version 5), and was introduced to this Cool Website with a List of All OS'es. I used Partition Commander to Safely install almost every linux on that list.

After trying everyone of them, what someone earlier referred to as distro-hopping, I settled on Redhat again. I was impressed with Redhat 6.2, but once again all I felt comfortable doing was running Software Updater. Every 3 weeks or so, I would login, read patch notes, and run the updater tool. I did this until Redhat sold out its Roots to Corporate America. Feeling let down, I decided to show my support to the OSS community and bought a copy of SuSE 9. Having used Redhat previously, I had to get used to the new Package Manager, Yum. I did and got more comfortable using it, but still didn't understand the power I had. That is until I discovered the Ximian Desktop. The developer that built this idea now works at Novell, who bought SuSE. Ximian Desktop was a souped up version of GNOME 1.5 - 2.0. IT WAS GREAT! I had that Music Player I never could find in my menu, a Napster Clone and Apps that would open office Documents.

I got more and more comfortable using and learning with Ximian as my crutch. I learned why the terminal was so important. I learned how to Read the Manual(back then no Linux Distro was focused on customer service). I learned how to install custom made deb packages from online repositories for games like Pysol. I even found myself wishing I had a more powerful terminal in Windows, knowing that the MS Dos Command Prompt Window was not enough. In 2003 I found Gentoo, I started using Version 2004.0, and have not switched back since. This is because of the configurability aspect of Gentoo. Don't misunderstand me, as Debian and Ubuntu are just as configurable, but it's the fact that the config file is hidden 3 levels deep, and once found, the comment at the top reads,
Code:
#please update this file using it's GUI equivalent. Do not edit by hand.


I hoped you liked my journey down memory lane. I told it because once you find the right distro you will be brand loyal, but you will be comfortable enough to install a VirtualBox with Ubuntu or X flavor distro if you need to for a particular purpose. In this way you won't be brand loyal, which makes both statements correct. If you need pointers come back here, but always remember to return the favor to others by answering what questions you can, not only here, but in general. We hope to see you soon...

I really appriciate this. Thanks! :DDDDDD
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gogobebe2
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mrbassie wrote:
gogobebe2 wrote:

I was trying to install WINE on debian. I got the Windows version of Steam and Firefox working :D


Is that because you couldn't find firefox in Debian? If so, it's called iceweasel in the repos. It is firefox with Debian patches and backported security fixes from newer versions of firefox, mozilla got pissy about them doing that way back when, threw their toys out of the pram and told them they couldn't use their trademarked name and logo as I understand it.

No I knew about iceweasal. I just got the windows version of it.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1 more thing, http://www.theosfiles.com/ from there. What is DOS? Is it olden day stuff? LOL. ALso I didn't know Mac was UNIX ^_^
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DOS Stands for Disk Operating System, MS-DOS stands for MicroSoft Disk Operating System. Windows 3.1 was DOS based, along with Windows 95/98/ME

Imagine the Command Prompt in Windows 7 without Windows. All the way up to Windows 2000, when you opened a Command Prompt, you opened a virtual MS-DOS window. It's like stairsteps, DOS is Step 1, then Windows got loaded on top of Step 1.

Re: Mac OSX comes from Darwin --> Darwin came from FreeBSD --> FreeBSD came from UNIX
Re: AndroidOS --> Linux on the ARM(ARM is the type of processor used in most small devices like cell phones) --> Linux came from UNIX

Linux Creator: Linus Torvalds. Linux is Short for Linus Torvald's Unix. If you have time watch Revolution OS: The Story of Linux
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gogobebe2,

DOS is an operating system for early PCs. Many of its commands are still around in Windows. Try running cmd.exe.

Very early computers did not have an operating system. It was just the hardware, your program and if you were lucky, a few libraries to punch and read paper tape.
There were no hard drives but later on we did have magnetic tape.
As computers became more complex, more and more activities became common to must programs. The routines for these were provided by computer vendors as the operating system. A few generally useful housekeeping commands were provided too.

On the PC, there was a choice of CP/M-86 or Microsoft DOS. DR-DOS, which was compatible with MS DOS was around for a while too. These were all command line things. 'Windows' (not MS Widows) were restricted to UNIX on high end workstations.
CP/M-86 was based on CP/M. CP/M was famous for being small and only having a single error message ... BDOS ERROR ON A:

DOS could not support multi tasking (and never could) but Windows was grafted on top if it. Windows was a wrapper around DOS, that gave the illusion of several programs running at once while taking great care that DOS always finished with one before it was asked to run another. This was the case right up to WindowsNT.

Macs are based on BSD, which is a Unix derivative.

There is a lot of lore around early operating systems but Google will tell you most of it. Gary Kildall is a good search term to get you started.

You can run DOS off of a single floppy disk - It used to run from one 360k floppy but two (floppy) drives made it much easier to use.
Such is the backwards compatibility of PCs it will probably still work today. I'll need to dig out my floppy drives to test it though, since they are not installed on my current PC.
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mrbassie
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

eyoung100 wrote:
DOS Stands for Disk Operating System, MS-DOS stands for MicroSoft Disk Operating System. Windows 3.1 was DOS based, along with Windows 95/98/ME


Is that right? I'm only referencing something I read online which was that msdos was a rebranding of Seattle Computing's QDOS "quick and dirty operating system" which they supposedly bought out?
Admittedly I did get that from quite a lengthy, scathing article titled "why I hate microsoft": http://www.vanwensveen.nl/rants/microsoft/IhateMS.html :oops:
I just accepted that as true at first glance :oops:
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All of the above is true. Seattle had an 8086 card (for a now obsolete computer bus architecture called S-100 bus) that they'd just completed and had no operating system to run it with because Digital Research CP/M-86 was late. They weren't selling many of their CPU cards and, in desperation, on a crash basis, they wrote a quick & dirty disk operating system which they named QDOS. Microsoft later bought it and rebranded it MS-DOS.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mrbassie,

The first MSDOS 1.0 ? was a rebadged QDOS, which folklore says, Microsoft sold to IBM before the deal with Seattle Computing' was concluded.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 8:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

so the legend's true or not? :?
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bill Gates is famous for paying for the Parts of his OS. He paid others low ball prices, and then brokered deals with computer manufacturers, specifically IBM, on volume.

Example:
How Much Did Bill Gates Pay for DOS?
50,000 is diluted down to $5 per copy to hobbyist, meaning 10,000 copies to break even. While trying to sell these 10,000 he brokered a sweet deal with IBM that stated IBM would exclusively build PC's packaged with MS-DOS, charging about $12 a copy + the price of the PC. Knowing that those PC's would sell in the Billions, was smart :wink: Using the money he received from the IBM deal, he and Steve Jobs competed to buy Source Code from Xerox for their copy machine GUI, having both seen it. Xerox stated they did not care, as the Mouse was a useless Item. Apple bought the source code and then licensed it to Microsoft. See:
Apple Computer, Inc. v. Microsoft Corporation, for the entire story

Don't misunderstand me here, but as Linux users, we are in a special place. Microsoft makes money by using this pricing strategy. I credit Bill Gates for employing that strategy. It just means he is a smart business man. We as Linux users cannot say we hate Microsoft because those of us in IT in the business world have a hard time convincing management that we can build and support a network infrastructure using Linux based products. When that happens, we must accept the fact that most business "runs on Windows."

I make my money programming .NET, but I use Linux at home, therefore I can't take sides. As a side note see this letter from Bill Gates to Open Source Hobbyists in 1976.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 9:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

eyoung100,

... and years later it was this theft that locked the world into Microsoft.

Parents at work took Windows home, so their children grew up as windows users.
They knew nothing else when they in their turn grew up and went into the workplace.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NeddySeagoon wrote:
eyoung100,

... and years later it was this theft that locked the world into Microsoft.

Parents at work took Windows home, so their children grew up as windows users.
They knew nothing else when they in their turn grew up and went into the workplace.


How True :roll:
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 9:18 pm    Post subject: Recommended gnu/linux for beginners: Reply with quote

Hey gogobebe2:

It is super cool that a young lad is trying to install gentoo as his first distro. You got tough entrails, don't you? A millennial child?

Now, back to your problems:
gentoo is a great distribution for learning *the hard, deeper parts of linux*. Not everyday linux usage. So, if its your first time with linux, go with the mainstream, that
is, a distro which handles partitions, graphical setup, and configuration of your drivers automatically. In this respect, Ubuntu and Xubuntu are great choices ( I would choose the latter).
If you want to keep close to gentoo, then sabayon is a "ready out of the box" younger cousin of gentoo. Arch linux has a similar philosophy as gentoo, so, it requires patiente and deeper understanding of the computer and the system.
I would not recommend Debian, although is marvelous, because it has to much emphasis on security and has some stron stances on certain drivers, which could lead to trouble, but if you are interested in a very serious distro, could appeal to you.

Partitions are exactly what the name says: divisions of your disk, suited for particular purposes. That is why you have to read the manuals carefully. gentoo, arch and debian are distros which will make YOU read. A lot. So be warned. In the gentoo handbook and online documentation you will find exactly what commands to type, but also, why they suggest such an example. You have to use your head and adapt to your needs.

So, godspeed. If you stick with gentoo, read firstly the whole handbook and check the gentoo wiki for your doubts. We will be here to discuss further questions .
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 12:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Those were the days!

Anything that ends in DOS spanned a short number of years between CP/M and the introduction of Mac/Windows.

DOS was a big deal, I remember the attention MS-DOS got when it came out. It was big because you could boot off a disk rather than a tape, or be stuck with booting off ROMs.

A floppy was a big innovation. Hard disks were around on mainframes but you never saw one in person. DOS didn't exactly introduce the idea of loading an app and running it on a general purpose computer, but it was the first time that a computer that could sit on a desk could so easily load an app in a carefree way. All there was before were tape drives (either audio-style cassette or 9-track "reel to reel" or some cartridge) or even punch cards.

The care you needed to take in order to use any previous "general purpose computing" app loader was huge compared to a floppy.

All that said, anything that was called a "DOS" was not really an operating system. It was a monitor. A monitor was really just a launch pad to give the entire computer to one application, there was no facility for multitasking. You loaded the DOS and then loaded the application, or maybe you just had a modified DOS that also had the app on it, and it was all set up to automatically load your app. If you had a good app it would re-launch DOS when you were done.

If you want a good look at dream hardware from these days, go watch http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0086567/

If you ignore the artificial intelligence/military strategy parts, the computer activity they showed was pretty realistic, although nobody I knew had hardware that good.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 3:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

1clue wrote:
Those were the days!

Anything that ends in DOS spanned a short number of years between CP/M and the introduction of Mac/Windows.

DOS was a big deal, I remember the attention MS-DOS got when it came out. It was big because you could boot off a disk rather than a tape, or be stuck with booting off ROMs.

A floppy was a big innovation. Hard disks were around on mainframes but you never saw one in person. DOS didn't exactly introduce the idea of loading an app and running it on a general purpose computer, but it was the first time that a computer that could sit on a desk could so easily load an app in a carefree way. All there was before were tape drives (either audio-style cassette or 9-track "reel to reel" or some cartridge) or even punch cards.

The care you needed to take in order to use any previous "general purpose computing" app loader was huge compared to a floppy.

All that said, anything that was called a "DOS" was not really an operating system. It was a monitor. A monitor was really just a launch pad to give the entire computer to one application, there was no facility for multitasking. You loaded the DOS and then loaded the application, or maybe you just had a modified DOS that also had the app on it, and it was all set up to automatically load your app. If you had a good app it would re-launch DOS when you were done.

If you want a good look at dream hardware from these days, go watch http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0086567/

If you ignore the artificial intelligence/military strategy parts, the computer activity they showed was pretty realistic, although nobody I knew had hardware that good.

Oh yeah I've seen that movie! XD
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 1:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1clue wrote:
...All that said, anything that was called a "DOS" was not really an operating system. It was a monitor. A monitor was really just a launch pad to give the entire computer to one application, there was no facility for multitasking. You loaded the DOS and then loaded the application, or maybe you just had a modified DOS that also had the app on it, and it was all set up to automatically load your app. If you had a good app it would re-launch DOS when you were done.
Well, not exactly. DOS (and CP/M before it) provided standard console I/O services, a filesystem with (initially rudimentary) directories, and a few other things to loaded applications. As such, I believe they could be classified as simple, single-user operating systems. Programs could take over the whole memory space (as there was no hardware memory protection to prevent it), but normally they didn't. The portion of the OS that normally could be overwritten—which was reloaded if necessary when a program terminated—was only the command interpreter.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We could go on about this for awhile, but most of what we consider to be important right now for an OS to do was inactive during the application run.

What *DOS was really, is a monitor. There were libraries available for the app to use, but no requirement that they use them. There was only one process at a time, and apps that called the OS task essentially called it from within the application space.

If that qualifies as an operating system for you, then so be it. It's a long ways from an operating system for me. The first thing Microsoft came up with that qualifies as an operating system as far as I'm concerned is Windows NT.

IMO an operating system controls the task, not the other way around.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 8:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well you're right about the going on part. For the rest, I'll plead no contest. :wink:

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 8:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

/me just watches and smiles.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Probably wise.

- John
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2013 5:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://s17.postimg.org/xf421o19a/Screenshot_from_2013_10_17_18_42_55.jpg
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2013 5:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Congratulations! :D
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