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The Best Solution or Prison in Disguise?
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Butts McCokey
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 11:08 pm    Post subject: The Best Solution or Prison in Disguise? Reply with quote

I'm a big fan of Louis Theroux so I thought I'd share this. It's...odd.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IEt3-kuVl5Y

Some of the people in this are remarkably candid
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 1:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Topic "Prison in disguise" made me think of public schools, which, in turn also enable women paedophiles.
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Butts McCokey
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 9:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tylerwylie wrote:
Topic "Prison in disguise" made me think of public schools, which, in turn also enable women paedophiles.
I'm amazed that no other people have commented, even if they just watched the first 5 minutes!
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Butts McCokey
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seriously? One comment? Nothing about the freedom implications? Nothing?
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Ahenobarbi
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Didn't have time to watch what's in the link (more than 5 minutes).

Isn't it kind of well known that "get free out of prison because mental illness" card is in fact "indeterminate imprisonment" card. Locking people after they spent time in prison is even worse.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Finally got around to watching it. I agree it was odd, also interesting.

I particularly agreed with the one staff member who said if he were there after having agreed to and served his time, he would feel his constitutional rights were violated. That said, given society's discomfort with the risk of living near sexual and or violent criminals, there isn't a better option

At the same time, no amount of therapy or panel review is going to determine if a released individual will commit a crime. The best they can hope for is denying release to those most likely to commit another related offense. If this system is to be used, sentencing should include this type of continued incarceration as part of the original sentencing. Knowing you had to go through treatment might reduce some of the resistance to treatment.

At the same time, I don't agree that it was "abuse." If that is abuse, they are essentially demanding the equivalent of chemical alteration to have no reaction to anything. Completely beyond sanity IMO.
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Butts McCokey
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was surprised about how much empathy I started having for them, especially because how open and candid they were. Then I was reminded that some of them had committed heinous crimes.

But still, they served their time but they were never going to be released. Even if they were given a release it was unlikely you would be found somewhere to live - so you were kept there.

Maybe a big town needs to be made that although it's not the "outside world" but it's not prison
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Butts McCokey
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ahenobarbi wrote:
Didn't have time to watch what's in the link (more than 5 minutes).

Isn't it kind of well known that "get free out of prison because mental illness" card is in fact "indeterminate imprisonment" card. Locking people after they spent time in prison is even worse.
You could probably get the gist of the documentary from the 5 minutes. If you ever watched more I'd be interested what you thought about the system because for me prison is about rehabilitation
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billium
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 8:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You are assuming we all have bandwidth to watch videos. :(
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Butts McCokey
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 8:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

billium wrote:
You are assuming we all have bandwidth to watch videos. :(
are you on dial-up?
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 11:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No just slow broadband ... almost midband.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 12:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I did not watch the entire video at this time, but what I did see was candid, and somewhat disturbing on a couple of major levels.

If they served their time, then I think it is unconstitutional that they are being held. It might be the "right" thing for society, but it is still wrong. On the other hand, I do not think that a few therapy sessions are going to change a person's behavior.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 1:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Old School wrote:
I did not watch the entire video at this time, but what I did see was candid, and somewhat disturbing on a couple of major levels.

If they served their time, then I think it is unconstitutional that they are being held. It might be the "right" thing for society, but it is still wrong. On the other hand, I do not think that a few therapy sessions are going to change a person's behavior.


++

It's an incredibly messy situation with no easy answer.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 1:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cokehabit wrote:
Maybe a big town needs to be made that although it's not the "outside world" but it's not prison
I definitely think a "trustee" arrangement should be made where they are allowed to leave and go to work, but must return.

I've mentioned it before, but this seems like another good opportunity to bring it up again. The Woodsman was a very good movie.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 1:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Muso wrote:
It's an incredibly messy situation with no easy answer.
Well, in part, it would be "easy" to change the law such that going to this or a similar place is required after release from prison. That would at least address the rights issue. It is also a step toward figuring out what to do about them once they are released. Some of the therapy and polygraph tests could be conditional for release. And with the "trustee" scenario I mentioned in response to cokehabit, it could be a circular environment from which they are never completely released. Given the violent nature and damage to potential victims, I don't think it is at all unreasonable.
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Butts McCokey
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 8:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do I think it's right that they are locked up after they have served their time? No.

Do I want them living near me? No.

Obviously if they are a threat to society they can't be released but I'm not sure some of those people were. I am also aware that some people are lying - and that may be part of their nature.

Pjp, How would the trustee system work?
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 8:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tylerwylie wrote:
Topic "Prison in disguise" made me think of public schools, which, in turn also enable women paedophiles.


I think the number of women paedophiles (you are american, you don't need to spell it that way) is tiny.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 8:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Muso wrote:
Old School wrote:
I did not watch the entire video at this time, but what I did see was candid, and somewhat disturbing on a couple of major levels.

If they served their time, then I think it is unconstitutional that they are being held. It might be the "right" thing for society, but it is still wrong. On the other hand, I do not think that a few therapy sessions are going to change a person's behavior.


++

It's an incredibly messy situation with no easy answer.


indeed. not an easy thing.

there should be a clear legal way to lock them up indefinitely. of course, much easier access to treatment on both the inside and outside of prison would be good.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 4:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cokehabit wrote:
Pjp, How would the trustee system work?
I'm not finding specific examples, but they remain prisoners, but are allowed some unsupervised freedoms. They've been determined to be low risk, etc. The closest thing I can find to an example Untrusty Trustees (but nothing says this guy wouldn't have done something once fully released. There are no guarantees).

The main benefit is getting them adapted to freedom, but still requiring them to return. If they don't return, then they'd be "immediately" noticed as missing. In my opinion, a program such as that would have a lot of benefits. They'd be close to their "support", they'd not be living where people don't want them, and they'd be earning trust in a meaningful way. If they did that for a number of years, and then went through some kind of halfway house, that would probably be the best "guarantee" as could be achieved.
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dmitchell
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This could easily be solved by the market. It's messy because of state monopoly on law.
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Butts McCokey
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
cokehabit wrote:
Pjp, How would the trustee system work?
I'm not finding specific examples, but they remain prisoners, but are allowed some unsupervised freedoms. They've been determined to be low risk, etc. The closest thing I can find to an example Untrusty Trustees (but nothing says this guy wouldn't have done something once fully released. There are no guarantees).

The main benefit is getting them adapted to freedom, but still requiring them to return. If they don't return, then they'd be "immediately" noticed as missing. In my opinion, a program such as that would have a lot of benefits. They'd be close to their "support", they'd not be living where people don't want them, and they'd be earning trust in a meaningful way. If they did that for a number of years, and then went through some kind of halfway house, that would probably be the best "guarantee" as could be achieved.
That seems sensible. Maybe for the first 12 months they have to wear an electronic tag/ankle monitor so they keep within a certain distance from schools or something.

Or how about building a whole town where they can be productive within an environment they are comfortable in. The lowest risk are allowed out to other towns and such as a normal person but with the knowledge that there is a fixed prison sentence if their conduct doesn't meet certain requirements. If alls well then they are released fully but with the benefit of acting in a normal environment for some time - so it should be second nature.

In the video I noticed that the guy they wanted to release (the guy who had a voluntary castration) had committed the worst crimes of the lot and by his mannerisms I don't think he'd cope in the outside world. I'm pretty sure he'd never re-offend but I think it would be too much in a weird kinda way
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Butts McCokey
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dmitchell wrote:
This could easily be solved by the market. It's messy because of state monopoly on law.
How so? How could the market do better?
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cokehabit wrote:
In the video I noticed that the guy they wanted to release (the guy who had a voluntary castration) had committed the worst crimes of the lot and by his mannerisms I don't think he'd cope in the outside world. I'm pretty sure he'd never re-offend but I think it would be too much in a weird kinda way
It isn't that they wanted to release him, a judge ordered him released. They just can't find a place for him to live. I think the biggest adjustment problem would be in how neighbors and the community treat them. If released, these people would almost have to become the most pacifist, kumbaya, hand-holding group that ever existed.

They would be scrutinized on an different, possibly even unfair scale. If you or I were to get into some kind of altercation with a neighbor, not much would come of it. But if one of these guys were to get into an altercation their neighbor initiated, they'd probably be convicted of something. Recidivism is of course the number one concern, but I think the treatment by neighbors would be the number one problem.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cokehabit wrote:
dmitchell wrote:
This could easily be solved by the market. It's messy because of state monopoly on law.
How so? How could the market do better?


If we could predict what solution will market create we wouldn't need the market.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cokehabit wrote:
I was surprised about how much empathy I started having for them, especially because how open and candid they were. Then I was reminded that some of them had committed heinous crimes.

But still, they served their time but they were never going to be released. Even if they were given a release it was unlikely you would be found somewhere to live - so you were kept there.

Maybe a big town needs to be made that although it's not the "outside world" but it's not prison

We could call it "Sydney".
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