Gentoo Forums
Gentoo Forums
Gentoo Forums
Quick Search: in
8-Year-Old Kills Caregiver After Playing Grand Theft Auto IV
View unanswered posts
View posts from last 24 hours

Goto page 1, 2  Next  
Reply to topic    Gentoo Forums Forum Index Off the Wall
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Naib
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 4110
Location: Removed by Neddy

PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 12:51 pm    Post subject: 8-Year-Old Kills Caregiver After Playing Grand Theft Auto IV Reply with quote

Authorities have reported that an 8-year-old boy picked up a gun and shot and killed his elderly caretaker in the head after playing a game of Grand Theft Auto lV on his PlayStation 3. The underage child will not be charged in the killing.

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/08/25/us/louisiana-boy-kills-grandmother/

Quote:

The sheriff's department press release implies the child's activities in a violent virtual world may have led to the killing.

_________________
A free press is the unsleeping guardian of every other right that free men prize; it is the most dangerous foe of tyranny. Where men have the habit of liberty, the Press will continue to be the vigilant guardian of the rights of the ordinary citizen.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
sikpuppy
n00b
n00b


Joined: 12 Jun 2012
Posts: 34
Location: Central Coast, NSW

PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 12:52 pm    Post subject: Re: 8-Year-Old Kills Caregiver After Playing Grand Theft Aut Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
Authorities have reported that an 8-year-old boy picked up a gun and shot and killed his elderly caretaker in the head after playing a game of Grand Theft Auto lV on his PlayStation 3. The underage child will not be charged in the killing.

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/08/25/us/louisiana-boy-kills-grandmother/

Quote:

The sheriff's department press release implies the child's activities in a violent virtual world may have led to the killing.
I suppose having access to a gun that was just lying around had nothing to do with it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Naib
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 4110
Location: Removed by Neddy

PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 12:55 pm    Post subject: Re: 8-Year-Old Kills Caregiver After Playing Grand Theft Aut Reply with quote

sikpuppy wrote:
Naib wrote:
Authorities have reported that an 8-year-old boy picked up a gun and shot and killed his elderly caretaker in the head after playing a game of Grand Theft Auto lV on his PlayStation 3. The underage child will not be charged in the killing.

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/08/25/us/louisiana-boy-kills-grandmother/

Quote:

The sheriff's department press release implies the child's activities in a violent virtual world may have led to the killing.
I suppose having access to a gun that was just lying around had nothing to do with it.
gun's don't kill so ssssh
_________________
A free press is the unsleeping guardian of every other right that free men prize; it is the most dangerous foe of tyranny. Where men have the habit of liberty, the Press will continue to be the vigilant guardian of the rights of the ordinary citizen.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
sikpuppy
n00b
n00b


Joined: 12 Jun 2012
Posts: 34
Location: Central Coast, NSW

PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 2:35 pm    Post subject: Re: 8-Year-Old Kills Caregiver After Playing Grand Theft Aut Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
sikpuppy wrote:
I suppose having access to a gun that was just lying around had nothing to do with it.
gun's don't kill so ssssh
:twisted:
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
wswartzendruber
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 23 Mar 2004
Posts: 1221
Location: Jefferson, USA

PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great. An eight-year-old with easy access to a firearm, who's stupid parents let him play M-rated games.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Butts McCokey
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 23 Apr 2004
Posts: 3327

PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 2:55 pm    Post subject: Re: 8-Year-Old Kills Caregiver After Playing Grand Theft Aut Reply with quote

sikpuppy wrote:
Naib wrote:
Authorities have reported that an 8-year-old boy picked up a gun and shot and killed his elderly caretaker in the head after playing a game of Grand Theft Auto lV on his PlayStation 3. The underage child will not be charged in the killing.

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/08/25/us/louisiana-boy-kills-grandmother/

Quote:

The sheriff's department press release implies the child's activities in a violent virtual world may have led to the killing.
I suppose having access to a gun that was just lying around had nothing to do with it.
Guns don't kill. Grand Theft Auto IV does!
_________________
Since the bible and the church are obviously mistaken about where we came from, how can we trust them with where we're going?

"An eye for an eye will make us all blind" - Gandhi

Cold is gods way to tell us to burn more Catholics
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Bones McCracker
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 1564
Location: U.S.A.

PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 3:17 pm    Post subject: Re: 8-Year-Old Kills Caregiver After Playing Grand Theft Aut Reply with quote

sikpuppy wrote:
Naib wrote:
Authorities have reported that an 8-year-old boy picked up a gun and shot and killed his elderly caretaker in the head after playing a game of Grand Theft Auto lV on his PlayStation 3. The underage child will not be charged in the killing.

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/08/25/us/louisiana-boy-kills-grandmother/

Quote:

The sheriff's department press release implies the child's activities in a violent virtual world may have led to the killing.
I suppose having access to a gun that was just lying around had nothing to do with it.

I was first given access to firearms at the age of eight. A child of eight is old enough to understand very well that a firearm is a deadly weapon, like a knife but worse. This isn't like a four year old pulling the trigger on what they think is a toy. It's like an eight year old picking up a butcher knife and stabbing grandma in the heart.
Quote:
he "intentionally shot Mrs. Smothers in the back of the head as she sat in her living room watching television," the sheriff's department statement said.


Having said that, nobody should have loaded guns just lying around where anybody might just "pick one up" (if that's indeed what happened; nobody's sure where the gun actually was). Both this and an eight-year-old playing a game like Grand Theft Auto IV are indicators of some very poor parenting decisions being made (or not made).
_________________
juniper wrote:
I use ubuntu, which is why I am posting here.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
danomac
l33t
l33t


Joined: 06 Nov 2004
Posts: 818
Location: Vancouver, BC

PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 3:52 pm    Post subject: Re: 8-Year-Old Kills Caregiver After Playing Grand Theft Aut Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
This isn't like a four year old pulling the trigger on what they think is a toy. It's like an eight year old picking up a butcher knife and stabbing grandma in the heart.


That very largely depends on how the child was brought up. This one appears to have games babysit him so he had a warped view. Bad parenting...

Edit: And apparently a gun was lying around and not locked up. Really dumb parents.


Last edited by danomac on Mon Aug 26, 2013 5:28 pm; edited 2 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
McGruff
Tux's lil' helper
Tux's lil' helper


Joined: 28 Dec 2004
Posts: 147

PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I want to know why the right aren't making this a big issue like they did with the Delbert Benton killing. Encouraging eight year olds (of all ages) to think that they have some kind of entitlement to guns and violence makes me sick.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
pjp
Administrator
Administrator


Joined: 16 Apr 2002
Posts: 16105
Location: Colorado

PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 11:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wswartzendruber wrote:
Great. An eight-year-old with easy access to a firearm, who's stupid parents let him play M-rated games.
BoneKracker wrote:
A child of eight is old enough to understand very well that a firearm is a deadly weapon, like a knife but worse. This isn't like a four year old pulling the trigger on what they think is a toy. It's like an eight year old picking up a butcher knife and stabbing grandma in the heart.
++
_________________
lolgov. 'cause where we're going, you don't have civil liberties.

In Loving Memory
1787 - 2008
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Naib
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 4110
Location: Removed by Neddy

PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 11:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

and that is true AND that is why I have taught my 6yo about knives since he was like 4, how to handle, how to sharpen. My wife at 1st was mad at me until her foolishness in leaving a friggen carving knife right next to him at the table paid off and he carefully picked it up and handed it to her... EVEN though he plays with wooden swords and stabs and cuts...

Same when I was taught about handling guns and such at a relatively young age. Ignorance never really protects...


HOWEVER, this particular incident (and other incidents like it) are just porn for the anti-gun and anti-vid game brigade and since the drive is alway for the lowest common denominator ... oh dear, they will harp.


An 8yo who's actual carer was GTA... A loaded cocked gun was easily accessible by the child... YES multiple fuck ups by the family here BUT it is ammunition for those who will point towards failed legislation.
_________________
A free press is the unsleeping guardian of every other right that free men prize; it is the most dangerous foe of tyranny. Where men have the habit of liberty, the Press will continue to be the vigilant guardian of the rights of the ordinary citizen.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
pjp
Administrator
Administrator


Joined: 16 Apr 2002
Posts: 16105
Location: Colorado

PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 1:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
Same when I was taught about handling guns and such at a relatively young age. Ignorance never really protects...

BUT it is ammunition for those who will point towards failed legislation.
The problem isn't a lack of legislation. I'm pretty sure the parents are at least partially liable.
_________________
lolgov. 'cause where we're going, you don't have civil liberties.

In Loving Memory
1787 - 2008
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Naib
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 4110
Location: Removed by Neddy

PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 1:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

never said it was
_________________
A free press is the unsleeping guardian of every other right that free men prize; it is the most dangerous foe of tyranny. Where men have the habit of liberty, the Press will continue to be the vigilant guardian of the rights of the ordinary citizen.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
McGruff
Tux's lil' helper
Tux's lil' helper


Joined: 28 Dec 2004
Posts: 147

PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 1:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
this particular incident (and other incidents like it) are just porn for the anti-gun and anti-vid game brigade and since the drive is alway for the lowest common denominator ... oh dear, they will harp.


It was definitely a mistake to leave a loaded gun lying around - someone could get shot ferrchrissakes! However, the fact that someone did get shot (with a gun) is no reason to complain about people getting shot with guns. I think we all know this eight year old villain would have killed his granny anyway, most likely with a knife and fork. Should we ban them too? I don't think so!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Bones McCracker
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 1564
Location: U.S.A.

PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 9:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Video games are not "the problem", but they are a part of it, just like bad parenting, violence in other entertainment, violent gang culture being tolerated as part of the popular culture, learned helplessness of the economically disadvantaged, and gun control that's focused on disarming the population rather than keeping guns out of the wrong hands. As part of a broader solution, we need serious, scientific study of the effects these games have.

In my opinion, violent, immersive, virtual-reality type video games, particularly those that place you in the role of a "bad guy", are harmful to children and adolescents, and to a lesser degree even young adults, and along with bad parenting, they are probably what caused this unfortunate incident.

This little boy, who by all accounts loved and had a good relationship with this Grandmother, was conditioned by repetitive behavior in an immersive computer simulation to fucking blow virtually everybody away that he sees without compunction or consequences, and to find it rewarding. So he blew Grandma away.

When I was eight, I had unrestricted access to a firearm and ammunition, but I would never have taken it out to shoot without first getting my father's permission, and I would never have pointed it at another human being, much less fucking blown Grandma away with it. The thought would never even have entered my mind. This kids head was FULL of that thought. It was literally being hard-wired with that thought.

And it's not about guns (other than that they are the most featured and celebrated form of violence in these games and other entertainment). There was a similar case fairly recently where a boy about that age who did WWE wrestling moves on his 5 year old sister and killed her. I've seen my own nephew at age seven repeatedly run around fucking waling on everything and everybody with a stick, like his sword-wielding character in some video game, and then at age 13 wreck his father's high-powered golf cart (plowing at full speed into the side of his mother's brand-new SUV) by racing balls-to-the-wall around the house like he does in some video game, with his little sister in the seat beside him screaming for her life. :lol:

But the worst conditioning of children is the killing in these immersive, VR-type games (realistic FPS games) -- it literally wires the brain to take people's lives without compunction. It trains them that other people are not human beings but Objects... just props, the destruction of which is inconsequential. In the case of the swordplay and shooting, it literally embeds the muscle memory of waling on somebody or pointing a gun and pulling the trigger, such that it barely requires thought. I'm well familiar with this, because the Army uses such simulation to train tank crews, who are often in a gunfighter-like scenario where he who shoots accurately first is the one who lives, and I personally have been through thousands of hours of it. But that's as an adult.

The brains of children are not stone being sculpted; they're more like clay. They are very readily programmed, and, in my opinon, these immersive games that program them to commit violence without moral or ethical consideration are very harmful. They're probably decreasingly dangerous as one ages, but still unacceptably dangerous right up to about age 24 or so. Some games, and other entertainment, are worse than others, in that you're actually playing a "bad guy" (somebody not protecting the rights of others but violating them, willingly and without regret). Those lessons taught by the culture are very important, and they pervade our thinking whether we know it or want to believe it or not. In my opinion, we should examine (through scientific study) whether games like GTA IV, where you're in an immersive, repetitive, first-person VR, role-playing a horrifically murderous criminal, should be off-limits to anyone under 21, or just plain illegal.

As I've said, I love playing these games, too, but we're just sticking our heads in the sand if we don't at least devote some significant resources to seriously studying this, in an unbiased and scientific fashion. And, as I've said, this is just one piece of the problem.
_________________
juniper wrote:
I use ubuntu, which is why I am posting here.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Naib
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 4110
Location: Removed by Neddy

PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 10:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thats the thing, I like porn but I wouldn't show it to an 8yo (well I might if it wasn't my kid) and likewise this carer would not show porn or other adult films to a minor. BUT for some reason there is a general perception that computergames are that... games... YET the main target demograph is mid-20's to mid-30's
_________________
A free press is the unsleeping guardian of every other right that free men prize; it is the most dangerous foe of tyranny. Where men have the habit of liberty, the Press will continue to be the vigilant guardian of the rights of the ordinary citizen.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Bones McCracker
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 1564
Location: U.S.A.

PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 10:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
Thats the thing, I like porn but I wouldn't show it to an 8yo (well I might if it wasn't my kid) and likewise this carer would not show porn or other adult films to a minor. BUT for some reason there is a general perception that computergames are that... games... YET the main target demograph is mid-20's to mid-30's

The grandma probably didn't even know what game he was playing. The parents probably bought it for him, because he said it's what he wanted and what all the other kids are playing.

I have two brothers with children. One is a good parent, at least in terms of setting standards and limits. The other is not, and his boy watches and plays pretty much whatever he wants to. The first one's boy was a star athlete and is now a Junior in college, on scholarship, majoring in electrical engineering, and getting nearly straight A's. The second one's boy is a junior in high school, struggling academically, frequently in trouble at school, and I think he'll probably end up sucking dick for cocaine or in jail.

Okay, maybe I'm exaggerating what will befall the younger one, but the consequences of not having clear behavioral guidelines and moral standards is pretty clear to me, at least as far as my own little anecdotal observations.
_________________
juniper wrote:
I use ubuntu, which is why I am posting here.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Prenj
n00b
n00b


Joined: 20 Nov 2011
Posts: 13

PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 11:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
Naib wrote:
Thats the thing, I like porn but I wouldn't show it to an 8yo (well I might if it wasn't my kid) and likewise this carer would not show porn or other adult films to a minor. BUT for some reason there is a general perception that computergames are that... games... YET the main target demograph is mid-20's to mid-30's

The grandma probably didn't even know what game he was playing. The parents probably bought it for him, because he said it's what he wanted and what all the other kids are playing.

I have two brothers with children. One is a good parent, at least in terms of setting standards and limits. The other is not, and his boy watches and plays pretty much whatever he wants to. The first one's boy was a star athlete and is now a Junior in college, on scholarship, majoring in electrical engineering, and getting nearly straight A's. The second one's boy is a junior in high school, struggling academically, frequently in trouble at school, and I think he'll probably end up sucking dick for cocaine or in jail.

Okay, maybe I'm exaggerating what will befall the younger one, but the consequences of not having clear behavioral guidelines and moral standards is pretty clear to me, at least as far as my own little anecdotal observations.


Not having guidelines is not the same as not explaining where the reality, or "the line" is. Doing everything according to the guidelines does net you comfortable mediocrity. Not following lines or authority figures can land in you in jail, or can (admittingly with dramatically decreased probability, but still) make you take LSD and come up with double-helix structure of DNA.

The real issue is that if you're not gonna follow guidelines, it takes more effort and presence and clarity on the part of both parents and the child. You can't be a lazy ass parent who turns on the TV when kid is not doing something that suits your personal agenda. You gotta work it for real, cos if you don't, you better be damn lucky.

Or you can do as your older brother, have a kid, turn him into a jock, and maybe he'll get blown up in some shithole country for no good reason, or he may get addicted to cocaine later in life working at Wall Street or some management position, all torn up because he is lost in life even though he did everything by the book.
_________________
“If You Meet the Buddha on the Road, Kill Him”
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tenobok
Apprentice
Apprentice


Joined: 09 Jul 2004
Posts: 199
Location: Germany, Karlsruhe

PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
But the worst conditioning of children is the killing in these immersive, VR-type games (realistic FPS games) -- it literally wires the brain to take people's lives without compunction.


There is still no reliable evidence to support this claim... A book can easily be as immersive as a video game. Even though some media outlets might want you to believe there is a causality between virtual and real life violence, there is no concrete proof for this claim.
And I'm not saying video games don't influence the behaviour of children, because obviously they do. But do they have a greater impact than other violent media? You even mentioned the WWE thing and still claim games are "the worst conditioning". Video games certainly don't condition a child to take lives.

Most children can distinguish video games and reality better than you might think. By your logic toy guns should be outlawed too, because they teach children it's okay to point a gun shaped thing in the direction of a person and pull the trigger.
_________________
"I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by." - Douglas Adams
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Bigun
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 21 Sep 2003
Posts: 1961

PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My bet is on GTA having no other influence on the kid other than making him curious and confident enough about firearms to pick one up without parental guidance. I also noticed the Grandmother was shot and not one of the parents. It's another disturbing trend I've noticed in the US, grandparents raising their kid's kids. Grandparents typically do not have the time and energy to deal with raising kids all over again, some take the easy way out and let something else entertain them. Couple that with the generation gap provided by someone born in the 1930'ish era vs someone born in the last 8 years, and you have a disaster waiting to happen. If not a gun, it would be some random copy of the anarchist cookbook he found on the net, or disabling the safety valves on a hot water heater, etc, etc.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Bones McCracker
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 1564
Location: U.S.A.

PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tenobok wrote:
BoneKracker wrote:
But the worst conditioning of children is the killing in these immersive, VR-type games (realistic FPS games) -- it literally wires the brain to take people's lives without compunction.


There is still no reliable evidence to support this claim...

Having no reliable evidence is no excuse not to commit resources to serious scientific investigation of the possible relationship, which is what I'm suggesting.

Your logic is like saying, "I've got a significant lump in my testicles, but I'm not going to have it checked out because I have no actual evidence that I have testicular cancer."

We've reached the point where we've been saying that for ten years, the lump is still there, and now we occasionally have blood in our ejaculate. Denial isn't going to make it go away; it's high time to get serious about checking it out.
_________________
juniper wrote:
I use ubuntu, which is why I am posting here.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
arnvidr
Guru
Guru


Joined: 19 Aug 2004
Posts: 454
Location: Oslo, Norway

PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
Tenobok wrote:
BoneKracker wrote:
But the worst conditioning of children is the killing in these immersive, VR-type games (realistic FPS games) -- it literally wires the brain to take people's lives without compunction.


There is still no reliable evidence to support this claim...

Having no reliable evidence is no excuse not to commit resources to serious scientific investigation of the possible relationship, which is what I'm suggesting.
Several studies have been done over the years, and there is still no evidence to support this claim. Not that that should stop anyone from doing more studies, as long as politicians are liable to complain about it.

Unrelated to that, this might be the first time ever in OTW where guns have been discussed and nothing stupid has been said (yet). Granted, I mostly skip those threads, but still...
_________________
Noone wrote:
anything
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Bones McCracker
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 1564
Location: U.S.A.

PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 3:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

arnvidr wrote:
BoneKracker wrote:
Tenobok wrote:
BoneKracker wrote:
But the worst conditioning of children is the killing in these immersive, VR-type games (realistic FPS games) -- it literally wires the brain to take people's lives without compunction.


There is still no reliable evidence to support this claim...

Having no reliable evidence is no excuse not to commit resources to serious scientific investigation of the possible relationship, which is what I'm suggesting.
Several studies have been done over the years, and there is still no evidence to support this claim. Not that that should stop anyone from doing more studies, as long as politicians are liable to complain about it.

Unrelated to that, this might be the first time ever in OTW where guns have been discussed and nothing stupid has been said (yet). Granted, I mostly skip those threads, but still...

Not much effort has been put into such studies and more to the point, not much money. As a result, the kinds of studies necessary to examine such a problem (un-biased, broad-based, longitudinal studies) have not been undertaken.

Nobody stands to make money by proving these games are a problem. The Republicans don't like to meddle with how people raise their own kids. And, the Democrats don't want to go there because they'd rather claim guns are the problem, and it detracts from that simplistic mantra. So nobody has put any money into such studies.

But now, with all the furor the Democrats created over the last school shooting, with the aim of disarming the population, they inadvertently made people really want to solve the violence problem, and the White House was forced to at least make the gesture of poking its nose into this aspect of it. When they did that, they came away with strong recommendations from behavioral scientists that it's likely that such a link does exist and that studies be undertaken.

"There's no evidence" is not a valid objection to making the first serious efforts to see if there is evidence.
_________________
juniper wrote:
I use ubuntu, which is why I am posting here.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Darth Marley
Tux's lil' helper
Tux's lil' helper


Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 105

PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

These were trailer park residents.
Yet they had a console or PC capable of rendering GTA4?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
wildhorse
Tux's lil' helper
Tux's lil' helper


Joined: 16 Mar 2006
Posts: 148
Location: Estados Unidos De América

PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trailer park residents make up most of the middle class in the USA. :lol:
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Gentoo Forums Forum Index Off the Wall All times are GMT
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum