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saellaven
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 2:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pantsonfire wrote:
You can't have a community based solely on self-interest. A community is based on fairness, equality and trust. A social animal like homo sapiens could never have evolved without them - it may even be that a unique talent for co-operation is specifically what gave us the edge over competitors like neanderthals. It's not a political or philosophical choice. It's hard-wired into us.

This TED talk by Richard Wilkinson provides a powerful argument for the importance of fairness in societies. On virtually every measure you can think of, societies with greater inequality perform worse than those which are more equal. Even the rich who took all the goodies often do less well than they would in a more equal society.

It's pretty clear that any political philosophy which does not guarantee equality (not absolute equality but rather a limit on excess) is a failed philosophy. So the question is: how does libertarianism create equality? For the pseudo-intellectual libertarian poster girl Ayn Rand and her followers, extreme inequality seems to be a deliberate goal.


Read Envy: A Theory of Social Behaviour, by Helmut Schoeck

He breaks down how envy is a very strong POSITIVE motivational influence on society, not just a destructive one... and he systematically takes apart the argument that absolute equality, lack of private ownership, etc results significant progress - rather, things completely stagnate, and gives examples.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 3:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

(@mcgruff)

Didn't you read what dmitchell just posted above? Apparently not.

Take a word of advice; you have some fundamental misconceptions about classical liberalism. Libertarians do not believe in a human experience of mass chaos, rape, pillaging and murder. You are engaging in reductio ad absurdium.

They simply believe humanity is essentially a lot of naturally self-owning and fundamentally good individuals who cooperate by choice, whereas socialists believe humanity is an entity afflicted with fundamentally evil subordinate elements called "people" who must be kept under the boot.

Also, any behavioral scientist will tell you that cooperation, community, collaboration, etc.: it's all essentially self-interested at heart. We do it because it benefits us. Even altruism is -- we do it because it makes us feel good.

Human beings are individuals. Social constructs are mere abstractions.
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Last edited by Bones McCracker on Wed Aug 28, 2013 12:21 pm; edited 1 time in total
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McGruff
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

saellaven wrote:
Read Envy: A Theory of Social Behaviour, by Helmut Schoeck

He breaks down how envy is a very strong POSITIVE motivational influence on society


I'm not talking theory and ideology: I'm talking about simple facts. On almost every measure it is possible to take, less equal societies score worse than more equal societies. Even the rich often do better in a more equal society than they would in a less equal one. I don't doubt that Schoeck has excellent arguments which prove the role of envy to himself. In the real world, equality is what actually matters.
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McGruff
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
Libertarians do not believe in a human experience of mass chaos, rape, pillaging and murder.


That's not entirely true. The vile Ayn Rand wrote that the poor were scum who didn't deserve to live. In the cringe-worthy Atlas Shrugged she specifically argues that extreme inequality is the goal of libertarianism.

If there is more to libertarianism than Randian Objectionablism, what is it and how does it create equality?
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Bones McCracker
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 12:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pantsonfire wrote:
saellaven wrote:
Read Envy: A Theory of Social Behaviour, by Helmut Schoeck

He breaks down how envy is a very strong POSITIVE motivational influence on society


I'm not talking theory and ideology: I'm talking about simple facts.

Bullshit. You're talking theory and ideology. That's exactly what you're talking.

pantsonfire wrote:
On almost every measure it is possible to take, less equal societies score worse than more equal societies. Even the rich often do better in a more equal society than they would in a less equal one. I don't doubt that Schoeck has excellent arguments which prove the role of envy to himself. In the real world, equality is what actually matters.

More bullshit. By design, the very "measures" you refer to are all averages. This is another case of begging the question. The egregious magnitude of this flaw in reasoning is left as an exercise to the reader.
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Bones McCracker
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pantsonfire wrote:
BoneKracker wrote:
Libertarians do not believe in a human experience of mass chaos, rape, pillaging and murder.


That's not entirely true. The vile Ayn Rand wrote that the poor were scum who didn't deserve to live. In the cringe-worthy Atlas Shrugged she specifically argues that extreme inequality is the goal of libertarianism.

Care to provide citations to back up these oh so typical gross exaggerations and twisting of words?

pantsonfire wrote:
If there is more to libertarianism than Randian Objectionablism, what is it and how does it create equality?

Why should it "create equality"? Why do you presume that to be paramount, or even a worthy ideal? There you go again, begging the question. I hate to put it in these words, but this is very characteristic of the heavily brainwashed.

"Equality of Opportunity" and "Equality" of outcome are two different things. Equality of opportunity, and the related concepts of self-determination and autonomy, are integral to classical liberalism / libertarianism. So, yes, it provides that. Equality of outcome is something else entirely which you cannot simply presume to be a desirable objective for a society, much less one of paramount importance.

I personally believe equality of outcome has no place in the social objective function, but being a pragmatic, I believe it does factor in as a lower-bounds constraint on the solution space (what you might call a "safety net"), to protect the truly incapable lacking adequate family support and to temporarily help people experiencing hardship get back on their feet, and I also believe some degree of systemic realocation of wealth is necessary to offset the capitalistic tendency to concentrate it. I happen to believe in libertarian principles and practice, modified to some reasonable extent by exception and only as necessary.

Stop begging the question. And stop exaggerating and misrepresenting propaganda as "facts".
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
pantsonfire wrote:
I'm not talking theory and ideology: I'm talking about simple facts.

Bullshit. You're talking theory and ideology. That's exactly what you're talking.


I'd normally say read some frickin' books but in this case you can simply watch this brief talk by Richard Wilkinson.

Societies which are more equal perform better on just about every possible measurement you can make.

Nothing better demonstrates ideologically-motivated bigotry than a refusal to accept simple facts.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 4:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How many metrics that oppose your claim would it take for you to change your mind?
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darth Marley wrote:
How many metrics that oppose your claim would it take for you to change your mind?


It cannot be done. When viewpoint enters the realm of religious fanaticism, all hope for clean thought is lost.
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McGruff
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darth Marley wrote:
How many metrics that oppose your claim would it take for you to change your mind?


What have you got?
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saellaven
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pantsonfire wrote:
saellaven wrote:
Read Envy: A Theory of Social Behaviour, by Helmut Schoeck

He breaks down how envy is a very strong POSITIVE motivational influence on society


I'm not talking theory and ideology: I'm talking about simple facts. On almost every measure it is possible to take, less equal societies score worse than more equal societies. Even the rich often do better in a more equal society than they would in a less equal one. I don't doubt that Schoeck has excellent arguments which prove the role of envy to himself. In the real world, equality is what actually matters.


Yes, good old mcgruff "facts"... which, based on your name change, your failure to live up to your lost bet, etc, are meaningless. You won't read the book, you'll just simply reject it out of hand, like anything else you ideologically disagree with.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 6:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good one. Some guy's theories describe reality better than, er, reality itself.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 5:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pantsonfire wrote:
Darth Marley wrote:
How many metrics that oppose your claim would it take for you to change your mind?


What have you got?


Answer my question first, welcher.
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McGruff
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 5:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I tell you what. Why don't you go fuck yourself instead.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 6:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pantsonfire wrote:
I tell you what. Why don't you go fuck yourself instead.


Wow, you've gone beyond spiteful. I suppose it should be expected from a bet welcher.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 9:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
The only "liberals" left today are the very people you castigate. The left has become social authoritarians, hell-bent on dehumanizing collectivism at any and all costs.

The radical left has lost the lessons of Alinsky, become frustrated by Obama's bullshit, non-change-delivering con job, and are impatiently wandered into the failed domain of Marx; the populist demagoguery they have resorted to, the same crap that comes out of your parrot-head, has echo-chambered itself out of control and instead of producing gradual change, is going to result in mother-fucking BEAT DOWN by the right -- a conflict the left will lose badly and which could very well produce a full-blown fascist state.

I actually heard Nancy Pelosi yesterday on the steps of the Capitol blathering to a crowd of African Americans celebrating a 50 year civil rights movement anniversary, about "the evil of 'Gradualism'". That's classic Marxist revolutionary agitprop right there. Fail. Look around, asshats -- you see any Marxist success stories anywhere? Fail.

Fail, so-called "progressives". You have become that which you set out to protect humanity from -- you have become Big Brother authoritarians. You have become "The Man". You have become the Jack-booted assholes who kick in doors in the night. Yet you have the gall to blather about "humanity" and "emotional intelligence". Spare me! :roll:


words like "liberal", "left" and "right" have become rather meaningless in your country. you can't really call democrats "left" and republicans "right" if they essentially agree on everything.
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Bones McCracker
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 10:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pantsonfire wrote:
BoneKracker wrote:
pantsonfire wrote:
I'm not talking theory and ideology: I'm talking about simple facts.

Bullshit. You're talking theory and ideology. That's exactly what you're talking.


I'd normally say read some frickin' books but in this case you can simply watch this brief talk by Richard Wilkinson.

Societies which are more equal perform better on just about every possible measurement you can make.

Nothing better demonstrates ideologically-motivated bigotry than a refusal to accept simple facts.

Blindly repeating the same debunked propganda doesn't make it correct. You are adhering in religion-like fashion to propaganda that I have already shown to be based on a major logical fallacy. Mindlessly flapping your lips does not erase that reality. You can't use per-capita metrics to argue that socialism is better that capitalism. It's begging the question. Claiming that cherry-picked, self-reinforcing commi-metrics constitute "every measurement you can make" doesn't make it so either. If it were true, then why does your country in fact continue to exist only by the protection of what would allegedly be a grossly inferior society. Sure you've actually accounted for "every measurement you can make"? If it were true, why does such a grossly "inferior" society produce far more than its share of the technological advancements for the planet, have the ability to crush your entire nation in a matter of days if it felt like it, and remain the most sought-after citizenship on the globe for people of any education, capability, or talent? Why do so many of your successful scientists, entertainers, etc., choose to live here over there? Gee, must be you're not actually looking at "every measurement you can make". If it were true, then why are socialist states, on the whole, poorer and weaker than capitalist ones. Why are all the most socialist states in existence one by one abandoning it for capitalism and experiencing major across-the-board improvements in "everything you can measure" after doing so? Seems to me you are parroting a very limited interpretation of reality, while pounding your little pecker and chanting a mantra to block out the real world and avoid cognitive dissonance.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
Blindly repeating the same debunked propganda (sic) doesn't make it correct.


As usual, you haven't got a clue what you're talking about - none of you. Wilkinson makes an extremely powerful argument for equality backed up with hard evidence from many different countries. Read The Spirit Level.

These are serious people doing real research not the lying windbags spewing thoughtless propaganda you are used to. And no, they don't cherry-pick data.

Equality is extremely important for crime, murder, health outcomes, and a whole range of issues. Even the richest often do better in a more equal society despite being "poorer". The case for equality cannot simply be dismissed.

The question remains: how does libertarianism create equality?
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 12:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pantsonfire wrote:
BoneKracker wrote:
pantsonfire wrote:
I'm not talking theory and ideology: I'm talking about simple facts.

Bullshit. You're talking theory and ideology. That's exactly what you're talking.


I'd normally say read some frickin' books but in this case you can simply watch this brief talk by Richard Wilkinson.


Basically he needed all of that data and statistics to conceal truth:
* Poor people tend to have more various problems.
* If we take societies with similar average wealth level those with more variance[0] will have more poor people.
* Therefore between societies with similar wealth level those with more wealth variance will have more problems.

But if you put it like that then it becomes obvious that you should let poor people get more wealthy, not drag wealthy people down.

[0] Ok, he used 20% wealthiest -to 20% poorest income(?) ratio, not variance. Doesn't matter here.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pantsonfire wrote:
The question remains: how does libertarianism create equality?


And actually libertarianism helps very much with spreading equality. It's authoritarians who reinforce inequalities by preventing people from doing their best to help themselves (and others).
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 1:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ahenobarbi wrote:
But if you put it like that then it becomes obvious that you should let poor people get more wealthy, not drag wealthy people down.


You didn't watch the video did you? Rich people do better in a more equal society even though they are less rich.

Trust me, everything you can think of to attack Richard Wilkinson's work has already been tried and failed. These are not simply pundits or think-tank propagandists. They are serious researchers with extremely powerful arguments.

Quote:
And actually libertarianism helps very much with spreading equality. It's authoritarians who reinforce inequalities by preventing people from doing their best to help themselves (and others).


Simple assertion. You'll have to do better than that. How does libertarianism create equality?
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 1:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Science News: Why do haters have to hate?
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pantsonfire wrote:
BoneKracker wrote:
Blindly repeating the same debunked propganda (sic) doesn't make it correct.


As usual, you haven't got a clue what you're talking about - none of you. Wilkinson makes an extremely powerful argument for equality backed up with hard evidence from many different countries. Read The Spirit Level.


http://spiritleveldelusion.blogspot.com/

pantsonfire wrote:

These are serious people doing real research not the lying windbags spewing thoughtless propaganda you are used to. And no, they don't cherry-pick data.


Quote:
He notes that Wilkinson and Pickett misrepresent the evidence base, ignore studies which do not support their hypothesis and fail to adequately reply to their critics.



pantsonfire wrote:

Equality is extremely important for crime, murder, health outcomes, and a whole range of issues. Even the richest often do better in a more equal society despite being "poorer". The case for equality cannot simply be dismissed.

The question remains: how does libertarianism create equality?


Equality of outcomes will never exist. But in order to try, you do pretty much have to be a control freak. And dispense with the benefits of dynamism and diversity. No emergent phneomena will come from an equalized and static social construct.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pantsonfire wrote:
Ahenobarbi wrote:
But if you put it like that then it becomes obvious that you should let poor people get more wealthy, not drag wealthy people down.


You didn't watch the video did you? Rich people do better in a more equal society even though they are less rich.

I did

more importantly how does that contradict my argument :?

pantsonfire wrote:
Trust me, everything you can think of to attack Richard Wilkinson's work has already been tried and failed. These are not simply pundits or think-tank propagandists. They are serious researchers with extremely powerful arguments.


What I saw was a lot of statistics to twist truth and hand wave where all the problems with his thesis are.

pantsonfire wrote:
Quote:
And actually libertarianism helps very much with spreading equality. It's authoritarians who reinforce inequalities by preventing people from doing their best to help themselves (and others).


Simple assertion. You'll have to do better than that. How does libertarianism create equality?


By removing obstacles that prevent poor people from becoming rich. Like removing fixed costs (social "insurance", cash registers, required certification) for trying to do something. Or removing complex laws. Those are no big deal for "rich", but efficiently prevent "poor" from trying to improve their situation.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
BoneKracker wrote:
O bla bla


words like "liberal", "left" and "right" have become rather meaningless in your country. you can't really call democrats "left" and republicans "right" if they essentially agree on everything.
You call them communists? :lol:
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