Gentoo Forums
Gentoo Forums
Gentoo Forums
Quick Search: in
Obama: would you have been better off...
View unanswered posts
View posts from last 24 hours

Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next  
Reply to topic    Gentoo Forums Forum Index Off the Wall
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
bogamol
Tux's lil' helper
Tux's lil' helper


Joined: 01 Nov 2009
Posts: 84
Location: Detroit, Michigan - The Home of Rock and Roll

PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LoTeK wrote:
Quote:
As in
"Oh noes he said homosexuality is unnatural, lets get this other guy in, I don't care that he bombs villages with drones, spies on everybody, persecutes journalists, gives our tax money to fucking vampires, lies every time he draws a breath, is clueless and spineless"
Very hypocritical. Driven by their own personal insecurities and immaturities, but projected as something else. Bad Karma.


well first I want to say that my first comment was stupid (or better: not serious / trolling ) especially because wswartzendruber wrote "I believe he ..." :)

and yes, since there are more important questions than "when can gays get married", it would be stupid to focus on this topic.

but the "spy stuff" would happen regardless of whom is president. information is power, people want power, people try to collect information.

of course the "bomb stuff" would happen too.

the "tax stuff" would probably happen in an other way or if not, than there would be some other injustices...


I think by saying these things (the bomb stuff, the spy stuff, the tax stuff) are inevitable you legitimize them. Instead when our leaders go off the rails and do something we don't want them to do, they need to hear about it and be held accountable. Ergo, all this stuff is Obama's fault because if he doesn't hear it, then neither does the next guy in line.

War hawk or no, I think McCain would have figured out the Guantanamo problem long before now. Here we are now drone striking whole families including women and children just to get at one guy because its too much of an inconvenience. He would suck wrt net neutrality in the sense that he supports it.

Romney would have been better then Obama because he would not have spent so much money on sinking ships.
_________________
Freedom is the oxygen of the soul. -Moshe Dayan

[quote="Juniper"]I fail to see the relevance.[/quote]
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
LoTeK
Apprentice
Apprentice


Joined: 26 Jul 2012
Posts: 270

PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 8:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, I don't legitimize them. I just want to say that it is a very goddam complex world and humans often do things just because they can do it. So if you have the technical equipment and the knowledge (like the NSA or any other such agency or even private persons) you are able to monitor all the communications. because many people are not aware of the "web-jungle" or are just lazy or stupid they can do it even better.

I really don't want to say that I know whats going on behind the curtain or even before the curtain, but I don't think that one person (in our case Obama) is that powerful to do all those things you and many others think. Of course I could be wrong (like everyone else), but even in less important and less complex systems than the US government there is never a single person that controls everything and there is no unit. they fight each other just as they fight others.
_________________
"I want to see gamma rays! I want to hear X-rays! Do you see the absurdity of what I am? I can't even express these things properly because I have to conceptualize complex ideas in this stupid limiting spoken language!"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Bones McCracker
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 1564
Location: U.S.A.

PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 4:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Prenj wrote:
Yes but in the blind pursuit of utopia where freedom to suck cock is not infringed upon, they neglected all other issues, and now that they have sucked the cocks, they complain about economy.
The reason it happens its bad karma. They are not men/women/memen/mewen enough to go out and war t-shirt "I suck cock/munch carpet and I'm proud of it" but instead they have to pretend its something else and elect the Dumbo.

As in
"Oh noes he said homosexuality is unnatural, lets get this other guy in, I don't care that he bombs villages with drones, spies on everybody, persecutes journalists, gives our tax money to fucking vampires, lies every time he draws a breath, is clueless and spineless"
Very hypocritical. Driven by their own personal insecurities and immaturities, but projected as something else. Bad Karma.

Somebody should put this awesomeness to music.
_________________
True Liberals are individualists. Democrats, on the other hand, are authoritarian collectivists.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
sporkbox
n00b
n00b


Joined: 11 Sep 2012
Posts: 21
Location: United States

PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 9:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wswartzendruber wrote:
aidanjt wrote:
Correction, that's where he's heavily invested, which is exactly why he'd be the biggest cronyist president ever. It'd be like all the Christmases at once for the 1%ers, funded by you and everyone else who isn't minted, while your wages plummet. Romney may know how to run a business, but he has no idea how to run a country. Any president who strongly favours the endless wants of businesses over the needs of the people is completely unfit for office.

Heavily invested? I was under the impression that involvement with Bain Capital was no longer the case. By that logic, then, anyone who has demonstrated success in the private sector is dubbed a cronyist. It's critically important that this line of thinking not be entertained.

It's also a fallacy to state that running a business and running a nation are all that separate. They have budgets. They both have revenue, and they both have expenses. This very fundamental fact is something Obama doesn't seem to comprehend. His return on investment for the 2009 stimulus bill has been very abysmal. It's something private sector shareholders would have never gone for, and the CEO who tried forcing it would have been fired.


You have good points wrt economics and running a country. But you see, running a country like a business will kill the morale of your population. Their wages will fall, prices will rise, government benefits will disappear, and conservative stances will be taken on social issues. Your population will not feel like they are being taken care of or valued, and thus they'll have no incentive to contribute to the country's well-being; be that economically, socially, or politically.

Countries have to consider social and cultural consequences for the decisions that are made. Businesses really don't suffer much from that, as they can adopt a "like it or leave it" attitude and replace those who leave. Granted, in its current form no government office has any sort of accountability to the people that are actually governed. Their worst fate is simply not being elected again. Meanwhile, their damage has been done.

Businesses and company have no legitimate business in running this country. They should be forcefully kicked out and banned from lobbying and bribing political officials. Greed is what produced our poor economy at the hands of businesses that believed in an omnipotent "free market" to erase their mistakes over time.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Muso
l33t
l33t


Joined: 22 Oct 2002
Posts: 655
Location: The Holy city of Honolulu

PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 9:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sporkbox wrote:
But you see, running a country like a business will kill the morale of your population. Their wages will fall, prices will rise, government benefits will disappear, and conservative stances will be taken on social issues.


Bullshit.
_________________
“If the words 'life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" don't include the right to experiment with your own consciousness, then the Declaration of Independence isn't worth the hemp it was written on.” ~ T. McKenna
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
saellaven
Apprentice
Apprentice


Joined: 23 Jul 2006
Posts: 241

PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sporkbox wrote:
You have good points wrt economics and running a country. But you see, running a country like a business will kill the morale of your population. Their wages will fall, prices will rise, government benefits will disappear, and conservative stances will be taken on social issues. Your population will not feel like they are being taken care of or valued, and thus they'll have no incentive to contribute to the country's well-being; be that economically, socially, or politically.



you mean like people losing their health insurance while having to pay new fines for not having it, getting their weekly hours cut from 40 to <30 so that businesses won't have to pay for their benefits or the penalty for not offering enough benefits, the cost of food and energy vastly outpacing inflation, spending and debt increasing at a rate that will cause debt service to approach our ridiculously high military expenditures by the end of the decade, the government spying on every form of communication we have and using enforcement agencies to target selective groups for political reasons, etc?

Good thing we have a guy that doesn't understand business in office, because I wouldn't want to live in a country like that. Oh, wait...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Butts McCokey
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 23 Apr 2004
Posts: 3327

PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 1:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

saellaven wrote:
sporkbox wrote:
You have good points wrt economics and running a country. But you see, running a country like a business will kill the morale of your population. Their wages will fall, prices will rise, government benefits will disappear, and conservative stances will be taken on social issues. Your population will not feel like they are being taken care of or valued, and thus they'll have no incentive to contribute to the country's well-being; be that economically, socially, or politically.



you mean like people losing their health insurance while having to pay new fines for not having it, getting their weekly hours cut from 40 to <30 so that businesses won't have to pay for their benefits or the penalty for not offering enough benefits, the cost of food and energy vastly outpacing inflation, spending and debt increasing at a rate that will cause debt service to approach our ridiculously high military expenditures by the end of the decade, the government spying on every form of communication we have and using enforcement agencies to target selective groups for political reasons, etc?

Good thing we have a guy that doesn't understand business in office, because I wouldn't want to live in a country like that. Oh, wait...
If the morons in your government would have agreed to a proper health service then you wouldn't have got the fucked up shit that is Obamacare
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Muso
l33t
l33t


Joined: 22 Oct 2002
Posts: 655
Location: The Holy city of Honolulu

PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cokehabit wrote:
If the morons in your government would have agreed to a proper health service then you wouldn't have got the fucked up shit that is Obamacare


If the statists in government actually governed according to the constitutional limits they swore to uphold, government wouldn't even be trying to mess with health care at all.
_________________
“If the words 'life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" don't include the right to experiment with your own consciousness, then the Declaration of Independence isn't worth the hemp it was written on.” ~ T. McKenna
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
bogamol
Tux's lil' helper
Tux's lil' helper


Joined: 01 Nov 2009
Posts: 84
Location: Detroit, Michigan - The Home of Rock and Roll

PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 5:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I could concede that healthcare is a human right, but only if we can discuss what that means in terms of waste. Currently, and I think because of the bargaining power of the insurance company, we have a healthcare industry in which only the gigantic can survive. Smaller players are simply unable to demand the payouts necessary to remain competitive with their larger contemporaries. Thus, when I take a look at the state of American healthcare I hear you arguing that it is a human right for people to stay in palatial suites, being cared for by the most highly trained healthcare workers while the patients' families lounge listening to live pianists playing expertly on a Steinway grand. Waterfalls drain playfully down the walls, works of art adorn every hallway and statues of famous physicians stand proudly in the 3 story lofted lobby. The largest among these businesses of waste rival the Las Vegas strip (yes, I mean the entire thing) and their palaces rival the Belaggio.

Edit: Cokehabit. Not Muso, I don't see Muso arguing that it is a human right to enjoy opulence. :D
_________________
Freedom is the oxygen of the soul. -Moshe Dayan

[quote="Juniper"]I fail to see the relevance.[/quote]
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
bogamol
Tux's lil' helper
Tux's lil' helper


Joined: 01 Nov 2009
Posts: 84
Location: Detroit, Michigan - The Home of Rock and Roll

PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 6:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Muso wrote:
If the statists in government actually governed according to the constitutional limits they swore to uphold, government wouldn't even be trying to mess with health care at all.


If they did that, then they wouldn't be statists, would they? :P
_________________
Freedom is the oxygen of the soul. -Moshe Dayan

[quote="Juniper"]I fail to see the relevance.[/quote]
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Ahenobarbi
Developer
Developer


Joined: 02 Apr 2009
Posts: 345
Location: Warsaw, PL

PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bogamol wrote:
I could concede that healthcare is a human right, but only if we can discuss what that means in terms of waste.


And whose duty is it to provide it?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Butts McCokey
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 23 Apr 2004
Posts: 3327

PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Muso wrote:
cokehabit wrote:
If the morons in your government would have agreed to a proper health service then you wouldn't have got the fucked up shit that is Obamacare
If the statists in government actually governed according to the constitutional limits they swore to uphold, government wouldn't even be trying to mess with health care at all.
Your country needs one. The other one failed miserably in every measurement possible
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Butts McCokey
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 23 Apr 2004
Posts: 3327

PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 8:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bogamol wrote:
I could concede that healthcare is a human right, but only if we can discuss what that means in terms of waste. Currently, and I think because of the bargaining power of the insurance company, we have a healthcare industry in which only the gigantic can survive. Smaller players are simply unable to demand the payouts necessary to remain competitive with their larger contemporaries. Thus, when I take a look at the state of American healthcare I hear you arguing that it is a human right for people to stay in palatial suites, being cared for by the most highly trained healthcare workers while the patients' families lounge listening to live pianists playing expertly on a Steinway grand. Waterfalls drain playfully down the walls, works of art adorn every hallway and statues of famous physicians stand proudly in the 3 story lofted lobby. The largest among these businesses of waste rival the Las Vegas strip (yes, I mean the entire thing) and their palaces rival the Belaggio.

Edit: Cokehabit. Not Muso, I don't see Muso arguing that it is a human right to enjoy opulence. :D
I think there should be a good standard of healthcare for all. Everyone pays the same and everyone gets the same. Just like the roads.

And as we are capitalists there is no problem with private companies offering other healthcare for a charge that can have palatial suites, Vermeer's on the wall and fountains filled with Scarlett Johanssen's breast milk in the foyer.

If you're looking for an analogy it's basically like toll roads that can be faster and quieter but you can still get there perfectly well with no fuss on the normal ones
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Bones McCracker
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 1564
Location: U.S.A.

PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 5:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stephen Hawking's healthcare is paid for by Americans who feel bad for him.

I'm not trying to make any particular point; I just felt like blurting that out.
_________________
True Liberals are individualists. Democrats, on the other hand, are authoritarian collectivists.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
bogamol
Tux's lil' helper
Tux's lil' helper


Joined: 01 Nov 2009
Posts: 84
Location: Detroit, Michigan - The Home of Rock and Roll

PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 10:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ahenobarbi wrote:
bogamol wrote:
I could concede that healthcare is a human right, but only if we can discuss what that means in terms of waste.


And whose duty is it to provide it?


:) It's not a human right.

@ cokehabit. I'm not clear on your logic. We have an industry which we spend more than 10% of our GDP on without covering 15% of the population my point here is that if it is a human right then we have a significant amount of waste to reduce because with the amount of money we are spending on it, we ought to be seeing better returns in terms of health measures. Do you think we could have a baseline of care that is available to everybody (this would of course have to be subsidized by taxes) and allow people access to high levels of care based on their willingness to pay? If so then fine, you can have your opulent hospital, otherwise if the whole thing is subsidized then we need to eliminate as much waste as possible.

Also I think we'd be far better off if we spent that much on education instead of healthcare. Most of the problem with American health is poor health choices and that is learned behavior.
_________________
Freedom is the oxygen of the soul. -Moshe Dayan

[quote="Juniper"]I fail to see the relevance.[/quote]
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Butts McCokey
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 23 Apr 2004
Posts: 3327

PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bogamol wrote:
Ahenobarbi wrote:
bogamol wrote:
I could concede that healthcare is a human right, but only if we can discuss what that means in terms of waste.


And whose duty is it to provide it?


:) It's not a human right.

@ cokehabit. I'm not clear on your logic. We have an industry which we spend more than 10% of our GDP on without covering 15% of the population my point here is that if it is a human right then we have a significant amount of waste to reduce because with the amount of money we are spending on it, we ought to be seeing better returns in terms of health measures. Do you think we could have a baseline of care that is available to everybody (this would of course have to be subsidized by taxes) and allow people access to high levels of care based on their willingness to pay? If so then fine, you can have your opulent hospital, otherwise if the whole thing is subsidized then we need to eliminate as much waste as possible.

Also I think we'd be far better off if we spent that much on education instead of healthcare. Most of the problem with American health is poor health choices and that is learned behavior.
Yeah, your system is horrendously mismanaged. To see how it can be financially more beneficial all you have to do is compare the US to the UK using the WHO statistics. The US pays twice as much, has a higher infant mortality rate, has lower life expectancy, fewer nurses and midwives per 1000 people, fewer beds per 1000 people and higher obesity. In fact, the only thing that the US is better on is doctors per 1000 and cancer rates - and only then by a very small amount.

The US system is horrendously expensive, performs like a 3rd world systems (Cuba's has better statistics) and people on this board continue to say how great it was. Not only that but it seems like all the money is going into the pockets of fat cats who instead of creating a better system are ruining people's lives by forcing them into bankruptcy. How insane is that?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
sporkbox
n00b
n00b


Joined: 11 Sep 2012
Posts: 21
Location: United States

PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 3:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

saellaven wrote:
sporkbox wrote:
You have good points wrt economics and running a country. But you see, running a country like a business will kill the morale of your population. Their wages will fall, prices will rise, government benefits will disappear, and conservative stances will be taken on social issues. Your population will not feel like they are being taken care of or valued, and thus they'll have no incentive to contribute to the country's well-being; be that economically, socially, or politically.



you mean like people losing their health insurance while having to pay new fines for not having it, getting their weekly hours cut from 40 to <30 so that businesses won't have to pay for their benefits or the penalty for not offering enough benefits, the cost of food and energy vastly outpacing inflation, spending and debt increasing at a rate that will cause debt service to approach our ridiculously high military expenditures by the end of the decade, the government spying on every form of communication we have and using enforcement agencies to target selective groups for political reasons, etc?

Good thing we have a guy that doesn't understand business in office, because I wouldn't want to live in a country like that. Oh, wait...


If you think a businessman would pass up the opportunity to spy on people, cut down labor costs, rob people of benefits, and then charge them for not having coverage (thus helping the bottom line), you're delusional. If people are kept in debt, it's a continuous, if slow, source of cash.

I never once said any president, former or present, fixed more problems than they created. No single politician has, and having a degree in business wouldn't fix it; it'd make it worse.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Muso
l33t
l33t


Joined: 22 Oct 2002
Posts: 655
Location: The Holy city of Honolulu

PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 4:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sporkbox wrote:
No single politician has, and having a degree in business wouldn't fix it; it'd make it worse.


Bullshit.

Some moron with a law degree who has never had to deal with the headaches of making payroll, complying with the obscenely stupid and tedious set of federal regulations, or had to actually create wealth is infinitely inferior to someone who understands business and economics.
_________________
“If the words 'life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" don't include the right to experiment with your own consciousness, then the Declaration of Independence isn't worth the hemp it was written on.” ~ T. McKenna
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Bones McCracker
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 1564
Location: U.S.A.

PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 6:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the most important characteristic of a good President is ethical character. I would like to see somebody argue convincingly that Obama is not the most unethical man ever to occupy the White House. If his lips are moving, he's lying. I just hope Americans have learned something from having elected our past few Presidents.
_________________
True Liberals are individualists. Democrats, on the other hand, are authoritarian collectivists.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Muso
l33t
l33t


Joined: 22 Oct 2002
Posts: 655
Location: The Holy city of Honolulu

PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 6:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
I think the most important characteristic of a good President is ethical character.


RACIST!!!!

see how easy it is to be a "progressive"?
_________________
“If the words 'life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" don't include the right to experiment with your own consciousness, then the Declaration of Independence isn't worth the hemp it was written on.” ~ T. McKenna
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Butts McCokey
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 23 Apr 2004
Posts: 3327

PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 7:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
I think the most important characteristic of a good President is ethical character. I would like to see somebody argue convincingly that Obama is not the most unethical man ever to occupy the White House. If his lips are moving, he's lying. I just hope Americans have learned something from having elected our past few Presidents.
Since who? Nixon? Johnson?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
tylerwylie
Guru
Guru


Joined: 19 Sep 2004
Posts: 456
Location: /US/Illinois

PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 7:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
I think the most important characteristic of a good President is ethical character. I would like to see somebody argue convincingly that Obama is not the most unethical man ever to occupy the White House. If his lips are moving, he's lying. I just hope Americans have learned something from having elected our past few Presidents.
Obama's pretty bad, but I bet it could be argued he's not nearly as unethical as Lincoln.
_________________
Bastiat wrote:
“The state is that great fiction by which everyone tries to live at the expense of everyone else.”
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Bones McCracker
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 1564
Location: U.S.A.

PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 8:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cokehabit wrote:
BoneKracker wrote:
I think the most important characteristic of a good President is ethical character. I would like to see somebody argue convincingly that Obama is not the most unethical man ever to occupy the White House. If his lips are moving, he's lying. I just hope Americans have learned something from having elected our past few Presidents.
Since who? Nixon? Johnson?

If you are referring to sentence two, I meant "ever". If you are referring to sentence four, I meant the last three.
_________________
True Liberals are individualists. Democrats, on the other hand, are authoritarian collectivists.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Prenj
n00b
n00b


Joined: 20 Nov 2011
Posts: 13

PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 8:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that Obama is creepier than Nixon. Sure Nixon did crap stuff, but he was also aware that he was doing crap stuff. Obama doesn't even seem aware or particularly bothered. Just smiling his fake grin and big ears. True sociopath.
_________________
“If You Meet the Buddha on the Road, Kill Him”
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Butts McCokey
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 23 Apr 2004
Posts: 3327

PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 9:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
cokehabit wrote:
BoneKracker wrote:
I think the most important characteristic of a good President is ethical character. I would like to see somebody argue convincingly that Obama is not the most unethical man ever to occupy the White House. If his lips are moving, he's lying. I just hope Americans have learned something from having elected our past few Presidents.
Since who? Nixon? Johnson?

If you are referring to sentence two, I meant "ever". If you are referring to sentence four, I meant the last three.
I was talking about sentence four - and then tried to put it in perspective :P
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Gentoo Forums Forum Index Off the Wall All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Page 2 of 3

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum