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depontius
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose wrote:
It was obvious, at least to many, from the get go that systemd was being designed
as a wrapper around the kernel and other important system pieces.

I think back to the early days of windows, where it started off as a process started under dos,
and even up to win98 it could be started separately or replaced completely, but it wasn't long
until they just made it all one big mish-mash. When that happens then one is in control of everything.

I think it's a little finer-grained than that. I believe that prior to WfWG 3.1 you could say that "Windows ran under DOS". But as of WfWG 3.1 it looked almost as if DOS acted as a bootloader for Windows, which then took over the hardware - it effectively hoisted itself above, below, and around DOS. But oddly enough, it kept DOS in-place. But then in order to make DOS multi-task, it kept sliding a new rug under DOS whenever it let it get control of the machine. Ironically at that point, WfWG 3.1+ was itself acting as a complete OS - for Windows applications that didn't use DOS calls. It seems like really a rather horrible hybrid mess.
Anon-E-moose wrote:
I think that may be the long term goal of LP and company, and maybe even redhat for that matter.
They can't control Linus and thus the direction of the kernel as is, but if systemd becomes
"the defacto standard" then they have a foot in the door of controlling things and could possibly
call the shots for kernel level changes.

Just a guess and time will tell.

That sounds rather sinister, IMHO. To me it sounds like Lennart is an over-zealous type trying to WIndows-ify Linux, along with the rest of freedesktop.org. They've been properly cautioned against a binary registry, instead substituting incomprehensible magic-string XML. I don't think that evaluation of the situation is really true, but sometimes it seems that it effectively is.
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Ant P.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 8:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

XML itself is a plague. It's not human-readable, not edit-friendly, it's not even computer-readable without a giant 2MB library. Arguably the most successful attack on open formats Microsoft has invented since the registry itself.
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TomWij
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 11:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

XML is invented with the opposite goals by W3C, not at all by Microsoft and takes a <100KB library to parse; most of the internet finds its roots in it. I don't think their usage can be perceived as an attack; they rather embrace it as an existing open standard, and also introduced some interesting offspring's like XAML.

Anon-E-moose wrote:
if systemd becomes "the defacto standard"


It won't be that for a long time, there is discussion and planning going on to make it easier to switch between init systems; I guess re-evaluation might naturally happen when systemd has been properly supported for quite some time, in the current state with missing service units and what not we're still far away from that moment. Users don't have to worry about this any time soon; even for GNOME 3, work is being done by Sabayon and Gentoo developers to avoid it from becoming a hard dependency.

Anon-E-moose wrote:
Just a guess and time will tell.


Definitely; I'm using systemd for specific reasons and it works perfectly for me, but the direction they might be going might yield unfavorable results. We'll see...
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Ant P.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 12:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TomWij wrote:
XML is invented with the opposite goals by W3C, not at all by Microsoft

This is so wrong, and so insulting of people's intelligence, I can't even be bothered refuting it.

Go yell at a wall, we've wised up to your games.
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TomWij
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 1:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ant P. wrote:
TomWij wrote:
XML is invented with the opposite goals by W3C, not at all by Microsoft

That's cute FUD but everyone with half a brain can see for themselves the XML spec was heavily written by MS.


Please stop spreading false claims that are not backed up by actual factual references; here's the full history from the first draft to the first standard version:

http://www.w3.org/TR/2001/WD-xml11-20011213/ http://www.w3.org/TR/2002/WD-xml11-20020425/ http://www.w3.org/TR/2002/CR-xml11-20021015/ http://www.w3.org/TR/2003/PR-xml11-20031105/ http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/REC-xml11-20040204/ http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/PER-xml11-20060614/ http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/REC-xml11-20060816/

Its base was written for 2 years by a Reuters editor, after that it was fleshed for 4 years by multiple editors from multiple companies of which one editor named Jean Paoli from Microsoft; my left brain half would like to see some actual facts instead of vague FUD, Jean Paoli is merely listed as a co-editor on http://www.w3.org/TR/xml/#sec-xml-wg which does not at all imply that it was heavily written by MS.

Ant P. wrote:
The thread title has systemd in it, in case you hadn't noticed. ... Take your concern trolling to some more gullible audience please, most of us have wised up to your games by now and are sick of feeding you.


The thread title doesn't have XML or Microsoft in it; but, note that the majority of my post was about systemd supporting the users so I don't see what is wrong with it. I'm not playing any games with my right brain half here; I want the best information for our users, as a matter of respect for our users as well as the instances being discussed.

Ant P. wrote:
This is so wrong, and so insulting of people's intelligence, I can't even be bothered refuting it.


There's nothing to refute and there is nothing insulting people's intelligence, unless you have actual proof to show me; since this goes off-topic, I will make no further reply regarding XML.
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Ant P.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 1:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TomWij wrote:
there is nothing insulting people's intelligence, unless you have actual proof to show me.

How about the two screenfuls of you trying to turn this thread into another pissing contest up there.

I gave you a chance to drop it, and the respectful thing to do to all others here would be to keep your mouth shut. You instead took that as an opportunity to add more trash-talking to an already long flame post.

You've shown your true colours and I'm done feeding your need for attention.
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TomWij
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 1:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

These two posts refute the central point; there is no pissing, trash talk or flaming involved. In a discussion forum everyone is welcome to refute your point, if you don't want your point to be discussed then why do you post it to a discussion forum? If you do post it then you can opt to either refute the refutation or ignore it but not do what you do now, if you deem your sub thread as off-topic you can report the moderators to (re)move it. Please stay on the topic of this thread or central point instead of perpetuating away from it, thank you.
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Goverp
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 9:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

depontius wrote:
[...
That sounds rather sinister, IMHO. To me it sounds like Lennart is an over-zealous type trying to WIndows-ify Linux, along with the rest of freedesktop.org. They've been properly cautioned against a binary registry, instead substituting incomprehensible magic-string XML. I don't think that evaluation of the situation is really true, but sometimes it seems that it effectively is.

W.r.t. the preceding flames over XML, the really stupid idea is centralization, not whether it's a binary, XML, or Cuneiform registry. It's the inherent mistake of systemd and it's ilk. The justification is roughly "let's put all the hard stuff in one place, so clever people like us can protect all the idiots out there from themselves", but the reality is "here's an over-complex jumble of stuff which even we can't get right, where errors in one part can compromise your entire system". It's about as bright as relying on Google Reader.
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Anon-E-moose
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 12:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

*whatever*
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desultory
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Split from "Systemd headsup of L.P. - reads like at first of april", with perhaps a bit more carried off than was quite necessary, still it seems to fit better here.

As for the now customary greetings for a new topic here: unless the Turkish prison is run by someone with the same initials as a 33⅓ rpm vinyl record, or the gladiators are in single combat with init scripts, or the inadequately dressed men were fending off javascript demons, no.
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depontius
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 11:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

desultory wrote:
... is run by someone with the same initials as a 33⅓ rpm vinyl record,


Is that record being played backwards or forwards?
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Bones McCracker
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 2:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Have you ever seen a grown man naked?
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I use ubuntu, which is why I am posting here.
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sikpuppy
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 4:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This reminds me of Gerry Adams and Ian Paisley, they don't agree on trifling matters either. Gillian Anderson's character on "The Fall" describes is well as "My Jesus is better than your Jesus?" as a rhetorical statement aimed at the silliness of The Troubles.
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ppurka
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 6:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

WHAT!??? SYSTEMD HAS AN EMAIL CLIENT?!!!!!!!! 8O 8O 8O 8O :roll: :roll: :? :?
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 7:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ppurka wrote:
WHAT!??? SYSTEMD HAS AN EMAIL CLIENT?!!!!!!!! 8O 8O 8O 8O :roll: :roll: :? :?

Do you remember the bit in Species where they tried to put a bit of the alien matter into a human ovum? That's systemd.


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Bones McCracker
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 7:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It has a web server; why not email? Needs a built-in time synchronization daemon too, and a font manager, and it really ought to be the home of dbus.
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sikpuppy
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 7:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
It has a web server; why not email? Needs a built-in time synchronization daemon too, and a font manager, and it really ought to be the home of dbus.

Any more corn and it would be a kernel.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 8:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sikpuppy wrote:
This reminds me of Gerry Adams and Ian Paisley, they don't agree on trifling matters either. Gillian Anderson's character on "The Fall" describes is well as "My Jesus is better than your Jesus?" as a rhetorical statement aimed at the silliness of The Troubles.

:lol:

At least Ian Paisley & Co. are satire worthy. Poettering is just painfully destructive to Linux.
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Bones McCracker
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You just need more lube and relaxation techniques.
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smartass
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's at least one pro of systemd: It did trigger a wave of questioning the SysV based environments - a healthy audit

Unfortunately, it failed to maintain a discussion on the topic, because both sides are too radical to be able to discuss the points.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

way to put a pissing contest into perspective, drop it into OTW :)
its like a couple who think they are into watersports and enjoy a light tinkle on each other, turning upto some party which turns into a pissing equiv of a Bukkake
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 6:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ppurka wrote:
WHAT!??? SYSTEMD HAS AN EMAIL CLIENT?!!!!!!!! 8O 8O 8O 8O :roll: :roll: :? :?
My prediction for 2015:
Systemd dev team, 2015 wrote:
For an optimal systemd experience, please use our bootloader written in ActionScript. Also, you can now download the latest systemd beta, codenamed NinjaRainbowPony-2.015×10^g64, which replaces the Power-On Self-Test (POST) with Angry Birds.

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sikpuppy
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 6:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sir Link wrote:
ppurka wrote:
WHAT!??? SYSTEMD HAS AN EMAIL CLIENT?!!!!!!!! 8O 8O 8O 8O :roll: :roll: :? :?
My prediction for 2015:
Systemd dev team, 2015 wrote:
For an optimal systemd experience, please use our bootloader written in ActionScript. Also, you can now download the latest systemd beta, codenamed NinjaRainbowPony-2.015×10^g64, which replaces the Power-On Self-Test (POST) with Angry Birds.

Let down all the tyres outside a Dykes on Bikes HQ, then it's time to play ANGRY BIRDS.
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Bones McCracker
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 7:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pretty soon, they will have the kernel as just another service run by systemd, which will be marketed as a bare metal hypervisor (social and for teh cloud of course).
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ppurka
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 12:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
Pretty soon, they will have the kernel as just another service run by systemd, which will be marketed as a bare metal hypervisor (social and for teh cloud of course).
Oh yes. Eventually, systemd will manage the cloud. It will give a new meaning to "when it rains it pours" (read: when it breaks down, it will take everything else with it).
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