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juniper
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John-Boy wrote:
mcgruff wrote:
Some pretty ignorant, bigoted people in this thread. Immigration is not a drain on the UK economy: it helps the economy.


Nice Guardian link BTW.

Nobody said that it drains the economy, or indeed doesn't cause a drain (apart from yourself) - it is the simple fact that there
are a limited number of employment opportunities available in any economy and nationals should be given first
dibs to jobs in their own economy first.


what limit is that? that's plain ridiculous.
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juniper
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgruff wrote:
John-Boy wrote:
Quote:
I am saying that if you have an issue with unemployment - source
recruits for any new positions from home. It's madness to import more people in this
case.


That's not a question. Still, I've already told you what I think. It's a facile argument. It's not madness it makes good economic sense.

Do you agree that immigrants are not dole-sucking scroungers?


you do know that immigrants consume goods and create employment right?

the fact of the matter is that if an immigrant gets a job, the market has deemed him to be the most efficient employee. that's good for the economy. Also, since most immigrants are europeans, brits have the same opportunity (they can leave and take a job in France, for example). the net effect is that the best people are chosen for the best jobs.

if you like borders, you don't like the free market.
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wildhorse
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 8:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John-Boy wrote:
wildhorse wrote:
As long as a few people make plenty of profit through exploitation and that outbalances the costs of unemployment for the rest, capitalism works just fine.


We have minimum wage and a whole host of employment legislation, this applies to legal immigrants.
:lol:
:roll:
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aCOSwt
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
you do know that immigrants consume goods

OK! As far as immigrants consume English humour or Sir Colin Davis' art... I don't mind!
But...
8O Don't tell me that immigrants consume Lyle's Golden Syrup! 8O
juniper wrote:
since most immigrants are europeans, brits have the same opportunity (they can leave and take a job in France, for example).

I will indeed warmly welcome Mr Tate and Mr Lyle.
I already warmly welcomed Jonny Wilkinson.
juniper wrote:
the net effect is that the best people are chosen for the best jobs.

I just cannot agree with that far too optimistic && naïve vision.
It is almost as true as : The worst people are chosen for the worst jobs!
juniper wrote:
if you like borders, you don't like the free market.

I don't mind borders. After all, there is one all around my property.
Borders never prevented me (nor anyone I know personally) to go wherever I wanted to go all around the world, south pole included!
And... I don't like the free market.
Non-free market never prevented me (nor anyone I know personally) to enjoy English humour, Colin Davis... and... Golden Syrup!
And free market never enabled me to enjoy anything from the English more valuable than this.

EDIT : Hopefully, I get some Old Pulteney left somewhere... Thanks to a bunch of good old fellows and not to the WTO.
It'll help me to consider more quietly the evocation of the miracles of the free market.
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McGruff
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
you do know that immigrants consume goods and create employment right?

...

if you like borders, you don't like the free market.


Hey I'm on your side..!
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John-Boy
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 9:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
what limit is that? that's plain ridiculous.


The whole entropy thing.

Edit- with all the general oddity in this thread - there cannot be an infinite number of jobs
within a set location, therefore if you have a problem with unemployment, target nationals first.

You reduce the unemployment factor, re skill those that need to be -

Is it me ? I shouldn't have to explain this.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wildhorse wrote:
John-Boy wrote:
wildhorse wrote:
As long as a few people make plenty of profit through exploitation and that outbalances the costs of unemployment for the rest, capitalism works just fine.


We have minimum wage and a whole host of employment legislation, this applies to legal immigrants.
:lol:
:roll:


Still true though, if you choose to disavow yourself of legal protection by entering a country illegally,
then all bets are off.

It's that 'taking responsibility for your actions thing' again.
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Spent
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John-Boy wrote:
juniper wrote:
what limit is that? that's plain ridiculous.


The whole entropy thing.

Edit- with all the general oddity in this thread - there cannot be an infinite number of jobs
within a set location, therefore if you have a problem with unemployment, target nationals first.

You reduce the unemployment factor, re skill those that need to be -

Is it me ? I shouldn't have to explain this.


It isn't you. I understand completely.

When unemployment is high people are always complaining about the outsourcing of jobs, but the same people have no problem with the importing of labor....the net effect is the same...higher unemployment.
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wildhorse
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 9:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A tall wall around the UK, filled with plenty of slurry, and a lid. I would pay real euros for that.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 10:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

they can pay for it themselves. With all the money they don't have to pay to the EU.
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Bones McCracker
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 2:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
mcgruff wrote:
John-Boy wrote:
Quote:
I am saying that if you have an issue with unemployment - source
recruits for any new positions from home. It's madness to import more people in this
case.


That's not a question. Still, I've already told you what I think. It's a facile argument. It's not madness it makes good economic sense.

Do you agree that immigrants are not dole-sucking scroungers?


you do know that immigrants consume goods and create employment right?

Yeah, and taking money out of people's hands so the government can spend it, that creates jobs too, right? This is a crock. :roll:

juniper wrote:
if you like borders, you don't like the free market.

False dichotomy. There is only a small overlap between globalism and a preference for free market dynamics. All nations maintain separate policies for regulation of domestic and international economic flows, including trade, wealth redistribution, freedom of movement, and others. What you just expressed is an extremist position that only fits with advocacy for the destruction of all borders and the formation of a world government. I know that's not what you're advocating, so cut the crap.
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energyman76b
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 9:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hm, I would like to know how many jobs our millions of hartz4 collecting turks and russians did create.

And I would like to know how many jobs would have created if those millions had not been spent on them - resulting in lower taxes and social security fees so the people with jobs have more money to spend.

One thing for sure: our immigrants created a lot of jobs in jails and the rest of the legal system.
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AidanJT wrote:

Libertardian denial of reality is wholly unimpressive and unconvincing, and simply serves to demonstrate what a bunch of delusional fools they all are.

Satan's got perfectly toned abs and rocks a c-cup.
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juniper
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spent wrote:
John-Boy wrote:
juniper wrote:
what limit is that? that's plain ridiculous.


The whole entropy thing.

Edit- with all the general oddity in this thread - there cannot be an infinite number of jobs
within a set location, therefore if you have a problem with unemployment, target nationals first.

You reduce the unemployment factor, re skill those that need to be -

Is it me ? I shouldn't have to explain this.


It isn't you. I understand completely.

When unemployment is high people are always complaining about the outsourcing of jobs, but the same people have no problem with the importing of labor....the net effect is the same...higher unemployment.


how does any of this make any sense. There is no set limit to the number of jobs a certain place can sustain. Where does this idea come from? Why has this limit not been passed a long time ago? what is this magical limit?

what the EU open borders does is dampen the effect of economic shocks. If there is a demand for labour in a place, it can be filled with foreigners. if there is not, people can leave. It is a great system if you like the free market.

bonekracker wrote:

Yeah, and taking money out of people's hands so the government can spend it, that creates jobs too, right? This is a crock.


irrelevant to this discussion and I don't see above where I have advocated for this.

bonekracker wrote:

False dichotomy. There is only a small overlap between globalism and a preference for free market dynamics. All nations maintain separate policies for regulation of domestic and international economic flows, including trade, wealth redistribution, freedom of movement, and others. What you just expressed is an extremist position that only fits with advocacy for the destruction of all borders and the formation of a world government. I know that's not what you're advocating, so cut the crap.


No, it's not false. The business community bangs on about limits to capital and govt interfering with the market, yet as soon as you talk about the limits on labour, the business community clams up (because labour restrictions help them), and they then have nationalists on their side. Labour, like capital, will flow to where there is demand and flow out where there is no demand. Only authoritarians want to put artificial barriers up to labour, and only authoritarian capitalists talk about limits to capital and not labour.

I am surprised to see you take the stance you do. Look across Europe right now and you will see unions and nationalists calling for a closing of the borders.
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juniper
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 11:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Muso wrote:
UK & France both have large numbers of Muslim immigrants with layabout kids that prefer to live off the dole while thinking about Jihad.


while scapegoating is fun and simple, it unfortunately has some minor drawbacks. it doesn't help us find the causes of the problems and just spreads hate. Other than that, it's great. blacks, jews, and muslims are my favourite targets. I forgot about gypsies. Silly me.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
how does any of this make any sense. There is no set limit to the number of jobs a certain place can sustain.




I'm starting to see why the left has trouble with economics.
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juniper
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 11:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John-Boy wrote:
juniper wrote:
how does any of this make any sense. There is no set limit to the number of jobs a certain place can sustain.




I'm starting to see why the left has trouble with economics.


it's me who is having trouble? if there is a limit, what is it? You are the one claiming a limit. I never said that we can support an infinite number of jobs.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 11:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
John-Boy wrote:
juniper wrote:
how does any of this make any sense. There is no set limit to the number of jobs a certain place can sustain.




I'm starting to see why the left has trouble with economics.


it's me who is having trouble? if there is a limit, what is it? You are the one claiming a limit. I never said that we can support an infinite number of jobs.


You said :

Quote:
There is no set limit to the number of jobs

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 12:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John-Boy wrote:
juniper wrote:
John-Boy wrote:
juniper wrote:
how does any of this make any sense. There is no set limit to the number of jobs a certain place can sustain.




I'm starting to see why the left has trouble with economics.


it's me who is having trouble? if there is a limit, what is it? You are the one claiming a limit. I never said that we can support an infinite number of jobs.


You said :

Quote:
There is no set limit to the number of jobs


that doesn't mean I believe that there is an infinite number of jobs. but, you seem to be contradicting that. So, what is the limit? This is the third time I have asked this question and it's fine if you don't want to answer. I won't ask again. However, you silence is a good indication of what this magic number is.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
that doesn't mean I believe that there is an infinite number of jobs


Actually it does. If you didn't mean that - then you agree with me, that there is a limit.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John-Boy wrote:
juniper wrote:
that doesn't mean I believe that there is an infinite number of jobs


Actually it does. If you didn't mean that - then you agree with me, that there is a limit.


Ok. I will be clear. Clearly, there isn't an infinite number of jobs a place can support. So, if by limit, you simply mean some finite number, then we agree.

But we both no we don't agree, right? So what is the difference? I contend the limit is much much higher than we have. As evidence, the unemployment figures have not gone up steadily with population increase. In fact, if we had passed the magic number, every new person would add to the the unemployment figures.

So, what do you think the limit is? and why?
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
So, if by limit, you simply mean some finite number, then we agree.


That is indeed inferred by limit.

Quote:
steadily with population increase.


Which doesn't indicate working population.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John-Boy wrote:
juniper wrote:
So, if by limit, you simply mean some finite number, then we agree.


That is indeed inferred by limit.

Quote:
steadily with population increase.


Which doesn't indicate working population.


just answer the question.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
John-Boy wrote:
juniper wrote:
So, if by limit, you simply mean some finite number, then we agree.


That is indeed inferred by limit.

Quote:
steadily with population increase.


Which doesn't indicate working population.


just answer the question.


Don't make any difference to the argument, positions should be met, when possible
by those already domiciled in a country.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John-Boy wrote:
juniper wrote:
John-Boy wrote:
juniper wrote:
So, if by limit, you simply mean some finite number, then we agree.


That is indeed inferred by limit.

Quote:
steadily with population increase.


Which doesn't indicate working population.


just answer the question.


Don't make any difference to the argument, positions should be met, when possible
by those already domiciled in a country.


Good. Now we are getting to the real issue. It's not the economy. It's just nationalism.

And when British employment goes up because they can't get jobs in the EU, then what? Why not have barriers between London and the rest of the country?
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
Good. Now we are getting to the real issue. It's not the economy. It's just nationalism.


Nope. It's common sense.
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