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Bones McCracker
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 6:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

aCOSwt, I must say, you are smarter than you look. :P
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aCOSwt
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 9:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
aCOSwt, I must say, you are smarter than you look. :P

Bloody phase shift!
The disgrace always comes because of the phase shift!
It seems I can easily escape it, but I just cannot hide it.
Naughty aCOS(wt+φ)!
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Ahenobarbi
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 12:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aCOSwt wrote:
Ahenobarbi wrote:
It's weird to not have infinity in ℂ

What's that ?

- It is definitely incorrect to have infinity in ℂ
- It is definitely incorrect to not have infinity in ℂ ⋃ {∞}

Period.


Ok, ok. It weird to work on ℂ, not on \overline{ℂ}... good now?

aCOSwt wrote:
Edit :
Ahenobarbi wrote:
When you have Rieman Sphere

What's that ?

You *never* have a Riemann Sphere!
Depending on what you are working on, the Riemann Sphere is exclusive-or the Rieman Sphere is not !

Period.


Eh? I bet I had a few in my locker... didn't need them in a while so it's possible that I lost them when moving or something. It's not a problem to build a new one from scratch (empty set) though.
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LoTeK
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aCOSwt wrote:
LoTeK wrote:
I think this spirit lives only in the underground nowadays

Not in the underground... just... behind the sacred fire, just as... it has always been. :wink:
LoTeK wrote:
overrun by a horde of finance- and insurance mathematicians...

Which is no more no less than what... *they* have always seen in the cave. :wink:
LoTeK wrote:
I meant that there was a time when complex numbers were rejected by many mathematicians. They thought it's something weird and "imaginary". But if you are a constructivist then a real number or a natural number is imaginary too. On the other hand if you are a platonist then a complex number is as real as a real number, so there is nothing weird or problematic with complex numbers

true, although I know it better I tend to idealize certain things like "the great athenian philosophers" and "the great spartan warriors" etc, but they had politicians too :)

aCOSwt wrote:
LoTeK wrote:
so maybe from a strict formal point of view there are just fields, neutral elements, operations etc and the division by zero is not defined, no problem! but from a more conceptual / philosophical point of view there is still something wrong...

wrong ? 8O
I have noticed in your previous posts, that you have a clear and correct understanding of the difference between maths and physics.
However, I would guess that your vision of mathematics is the one of a physicist. (Absolutely no disrespect meant)

Although I like physics and I always wanted to become a physicist, I don't like their point of view when it comes to mathematics (at least the one of many experimental physicists). So I'm a bit offended :P :)

no seriously, I would say that my vision of mathematics is the one of a realist. So if the mathematics world is "real" (lets ignore discussions about the meaning of "real" and "existence" at least for the moment) then there is "true" and "wrong" or better: something can be or is and other things can't be similar to the physical reality.

I have noticed in your posts that you have a clear and correct understanding too, so if you say I have the "physicist view" I'd say you have the view of a formalist (like VonNeuman), because:

aCOSwt wrote:
Whatever you are, only incoherence and inconsistency are weird in maths. Period. As far as *all* the entities you use are used according to their definitions, *nothing* is weird.


So you think that you can define something and if you use those definitions with a consistent logic then everything it's ok?

aCOSwt wrote:
For the physicist, maths are at first a set of tools serving purposes. Mathematicians are enablers. Physicists trust in Einstein's relativity ? Therefore there must be something right in Minkowsky's geometry, therefore Minkowsky's geometry is fruitful.
This is nothing but the standpoint of utilitarianism. (Once again, no disrespect meant)

maybe I have expressed myself not clear enough, but I'm far away from this point of view. Like you I don't want to disrespect someone, but I really hate pragmatism and utilitarianism. In engineering this thinking is useful, but I don't like it. I don't believe in a theory because it does it's job, regardless if it's a mathematical theory or a physical theory. Lets take occam's razor:
lets assume we have a "wrong" theory but the theory is very simple and explains a width range of phenomena. On the other hand we have a very complex theory, that is maybe even less accurate, but "true", then I would take the second one.

aCOSwt wrote:
"From a more conceptual / philosophical point of view, there" just cannot be anything Wrong in maths.
There just cannot because, from a more philosophical point of view, maths are nothing but a perfectly regular... S...! (I managed not to write it)

it can't be wrong in the mathematical reality, but our understanding could be wrong. this is one philosophical point of view...

aCOSwt wrote:
Whatever trivial / highly complex calculus / demonstration you are achieving... the result... carries a level of... niceness!... Beauty?^H.
At the point that, writing the result, you are dead sure convinced that *it must be correct* and this just because it is nice !
Isn't that just the ultimate weirdness in the field of maths ? I think so !

yes I know what you mean. But one of my strongest motivations for digging into maths was that it's so certain. But in the end this "it must be correct" is just another subjective feeling. I don't have an answer to the question:

what is the difference between the mathematician that is dead sure about his proof and for example hitler that is dead sure that all jews must be terminated (just an example, don't cater to hitler plz)?

I wanted to be able to say: this is true, because I have a mathematical proof and not just because I say it's true.

aCOSwt wrote:
personally cannot tell if that is fruitful or not.
And I just cannot tell that because... it is... : f u n d a m e n t a l ! :P

I just used the notion "fruitful" because I've read it a lot in Gottlob Freges book. And there is nothing more fundamental than logic and the foundations of mathematics. There was a statement from Frege: " ... I also think that a definition preliminary must be fruitful ... "

aCOSwt wrote:
Hey :evil: ... any element of ℕ is prime exclusive-or non-prime, isn't it? ... 0 is... ? Neither prime nor non-prime !
0!=1 8O :?: :?
x^0 =1 :?: 8O :?
What are these disgraceful / counter-intuitive fiddlings ?
Of course these are completely useless, I will never ever ask my computer to compute 0! Useless &... Stupid!
So what are these fiddlings ?
:idea:
Conventions !
And why do I need to resort to conventions, and these conventions in particular ?
:idea:
In order to make *everything* coherent !
And why do I need to make so *everything* is coherent ?
In order to be able to... state universally !
No less !

yes I agree, but it's kind of ugly and not interesting. I don't want conventions, I want to discover!
btw, do you know Goedel's work?
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pieterhog
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 11:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Buddha propagated kindness and harmony, he was against violence, since it harms both the victim and the aggressor. So a monk (!) defending agression is not conform Buddha's teachings.
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Bones McCracker
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 2:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Buddhists won't be propagating much kindness and harmony after Islam wipes them out. Look at what Communism did to them in Cambodia, as an example.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 11:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@BoneKracker - Yes, there has been considerable oppression & aggression against buddhist and buddhism, by hindus (India), muslims (Afghanistan, India, Indonesia, south of Thailand) and by communists (Tibet, Vietnam). But counter-aggression is not a very buddha-like response.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 5:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pieterhog wrote:
@BoneKracker - Yes, there has been considerable oppression & aggression against buddhist and buddhism, by hindus (India), muslims (Afghanistan, India, Indonesia, south of Thailand) and by communists (Tibet, Vietnam). But counter-aggression is not a very buddha-like response.

I think you misunderstand your perception that BK doesn't "get it" with the fact that we do "get it" but when driven to extinction, you gotta either drop silly ideas and fight back, or perish. Or live on top of the mountain for the rest of your life.
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bogamol
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 5:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is an example of another person who gets it.

"Principle is OK up to a certain point, but principle doesn't do any good if you lose."
-Dick Cheney.
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pieterhog
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 7:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Prenj, thanks for the response. I see you come from Bosnia Herzegovina. So you know about ethic/religious wars....but you also know that war comes with with a high price for all sides in the conflict.

Btw, 2 years ago I was in Bosnia during a holiday, we were in the Kroatian Krajina region, later we visited Bihac in the muslim part of Bosnia. Still many burnt down houses, bullet holes, and so on. Sad to see the misery that extremists (of whatever side) can cause. It would be nice of we all kept our war fighting to operating systems - Windows is the enemy !!!!! ;-) ;-) :-) Yes, I know this is not the case in the real world, sad but true... :-(
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Prenj
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 8:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pieterhog wrote:
Hi Prenj, thanks for the response. I see you come from Bosnia Herzegovina. So you know about ethic/religious wars....but you also know that war comes with with a high price for all sides in the conflict.

Yes you are preaching to the choir, what I am talking about is the transition from so called enlightened pacifism to war. It comes when someone starts lobbing grenades at your peaceful village, or some sniper shoots at the peaceful student peace protest. That is the point when ego-constructed-imaginary panacea is cracked and you are human being again, fighting for survival. Cause or wisdom of regret has nothing to do with it.
It is no different then someone stopping you and your girlfriend in a dark alley with the intent of rape and murder and you are past the words. What are you gonna do? What if it is your daughter? Are you gonna stand there thinking about Buddha or are you gonna grab whatever is near and start bashing someone over the head?

pieterhog wrote:
Btw, 2 years ago I was in Bosnia during a holiday, we were in the Kroatian Krajina region, later we visited Bihac in the muslim part of Bosnia. Still many burnt down houses, bullet holes, and so on. Sad to see the misery that extremists (of whatever side) can cause. It would be nice of we all kept our war fighting to operating systems - Windows is the enemy !!!!! ;-) ;-) :-) Yes, I know this is not the case in the real world, sad but true... :-(

Yes, but don't feel sorry for us. Take it as a lesson that the war can happen anywhere, and it's always ugly. When I grew up (well first 19 years of my life, really) I was of absolute conviction that War is something reserved for a) Movies, b) black & white documentaries, c) footage from fucked up countries where baboons lived; and that it could obviously never happen in my country since EVERYBODY knew about WW2, how horrible it was, and we were civilised, educated, watched Carl Sagans Cosmos, listened to all kinds of music, had a sense of fashion and all that.

So yeah. You'd be surprised how fast stuff can turn 180 degrees. So pay attention what your "civilised" leaders are doing in the meantime.

Also regarding peace, buddhism and tranquility, enlightenment is not about becoming this docile fake-smiling puppet, vegan, or whatever. It is more like climbing a mountain, you get to the top, see the things from new perspective and then you climb down. So you see what we could be, but then you also see that we are not and accept your own nature, the terms and conditions of your own existance, so to speak. Including all the shite that happens.
So when the time comes to bash someone on the head, you do that. :lol:
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Muso
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 8:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Prenj, no more DMT for you, you are starting to make too much sense. Go back to coca~cola and Marlboros. Then your aura should be perfectly cog-shaped to join the masses.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 10:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lol, live this thread. Remember we MUST solve all political and ethical issues of the world, here, today. All this Gentoo thing is just a cover up for this deep philosophical think tank. 12 hours left guys! To solve EVERYTHING. ;-)

@Prenj, I'm not very enlightened myself, actually I'm the short of guy who can get extremely angry and then break things and hate myself afterwards...(and my wife hates it too...)..but now I try to keep the breakage to operating systems :-) Anyway is there a good solution? Violence did not get the Palestinians a country, but pacifism did not help the Tibetians either, so...I don't know, if both don't work, what would be the best? Serious question.
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BonezTheGoon
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pieterhog wrote:
. . . Violence did not get the Palestinians a country, but pacifism did not help the Tibetians either, so...I don't know, if both don't work, what would be the best? Serious question.


A balanced approach? I feel like I am repeating myself on this in several threads.

How about use violence as a last line of defense, when all other reasonable actions have failed to produce a peaceful outcome? How about meet violence with violence, swiftly so that diplomatic ventures can be pursued as quickly as possible once the threat realizes they are attacking a force that requires a higher level of interaction with, like negotiations?

On a sufficiently long time-scale both violence and pacifism fail miserably. History has shown this countless times.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 3:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pieterhog wrote:
if both don't work, what would be the best? Serious question.

Short answer: if you want no suffering, you must end all life.

Now I could elaborate further, and throw in Buddha, ego, mind, self, life, complex life systems, theology, AI, quantum mechanics (not in scientific, educated manner, but in the way of "quantum is new new-age"), Daniel Quinn's Ishmael, my theory of what Jesus really was saying, why muslims are right when they say that Quran is the proof and how come it is in my case the proof that they are wrong, etc etc.

I even may make sense, or worse yet, be right about it. But don't really think it matters at all.

So I'll rather go have a coffee, followed by a beer, and maybe, if my chakras are aligned/Odin loves me/nailed the attraction principle/don't slouch I might copulate with another fellow human being, at least for no reason whatsoever ;)
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BonezTheGoon
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Prenj wrote:
pieterhog wrote:
if both don't work, what would be the best? Serious question.

Short answer: if you want no suffering, you must end all life.


One of my favorite lines (that I also believe) from the Princess Bride: "Life is pain highness, anyone who says otherwise is selling something."

Prenj wrote:
Now I could elaborate further, and throw in Buddha, ego, mind, self, life, complex life systems, theology, AI, quantum mechanics (not in scientific, educated manner, but in the way of "quantum is new new-age"), Daniel Quinn's Ishmael, my theory of what Jesus really was saying, why muslims are right when they say that Quran is the proof and how come it is in my case the proof that they are wrong, etc etc.

I even may make sense, or worse yet, be right about it. But don't really think it matters at all.

So I'll rather go have a coffee, followed by a beer, and maybe, if my chakras are aligned/Odin loves me/nailed the attraction principle/don't slouch I might copulate with another fellow human being, at least for no reason whatsoever ;)


I like you Prenj. Wish I could drink a beer with you and be your wingman.
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pjp wrote:
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Prenj
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Muso wrote:
Prenj, no more DMT for you, you are starting to make too much sense. Go back to coca~cola and Marlboros. Then your aura should be perfectly cog-shaped to join the masses.

Hahah. I tried man, but they can always sniff me out somehow, and ask stuff like "why are you tunneling Pandora when everybody is listening to Spotify". Bummer! :lol:
BonezTheGoon wrote:
I like you Prenj. Wish I could drink a beer with you and be your wingman.

Well, thank you, and if the probability lines somehow align, you are most welcome to it. We occasionally have a small tribe that simultaniously comes to the same conclusion that it is time to go up in the mountains for a week or so, and do whatever, drink beer, play backgammon, smoke weed, trip on mushrooms, chop wood, plan revolutions, draw schematics of the next breakthrough app on a chocolate wrapper (which someone always trashes, maybe for the best), and so on. You know, the usual stuff. :lol:
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