Gentoo Forums
Gentoo Forums
Gentoo Forums
Quick Search: in
Snowden: Obama expanded abusive programs
View unanswered posts
View posts from last 24 hours

Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next  
Reply to topic    Gentoo Forums Forum Index Off the Wall
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Bones McCracker
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 1564
Location: U.S.A.

PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 10:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You have arbitrarily limited your definition of "badness" to "scope". You don't understand the scale of GCHQ data collection and are trying to minimize it. You are mistaken if you believe there are no Tier 1 internet circuits in Britain. Just because a circuit is owned and operated by a U.S. based company doesn't mean it's physically in the U.S. :roll:

Flapping your lips in ignorance does not answer the mail. But, if you want to live in denial and go through mental gymnastics just to protect the collectivist-authoritarian nature of your government, that's up to you. Just don't put too much effort into it, because it's patently obvious to everyone that's what you're doing. You could save some time by just saying "I'm fine with this".

You might want to read more, though. This, for example:
http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2013-06/24/gchq-tempora-101
_________________
juniper wrote:
I use ubuntu, which is why I am posting here.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Bones McCracker
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 1564
Location: U.S.A.

PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 11:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darth Marley wrote:
BoneKracker wrote:
Darth Marley wrote:
For the "whistleblower" protections to apply to Snowden, the matters he revealed would have to be demonstrated to be illegal acts.

This is incorrect.

But, even if it were correct, a gross violation of the Constitutional rights of citizens is certainly illegal, even if somebody claims they've got a law that arguably authorizes it.


So, do you suggest that the charges brought against Snowden can be affirmatively defended based on whistleblower protections?

I believe a defense can be mounted based on that argument, but I believe this government will do whatever it wants to do to Snowden.
_________________
juniper wrote:
I use ubuntu, which is why I am posting here.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Prenj
n00b
n00b


Joined: 20 Nov 2011
Posts: 13

PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 12:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://computer.howstuffworks.com/internet/basics/who-owns-internet1.htm

Take your pick.
_________________
“If You Meet the Buddha on the Road, Kill Him”
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Naib
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 4111
Location: Removed by Neddy

PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 9:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ok lets be blunt here...
FOR the US PRISM program to fully work it requires GCHQ, it required the data that GCHQ can capture.
Why? because the UK route a fucktonne of data from Middle-east --> USA (but wait the USA PRISM can monitor that), it also route a fucktonne of data from Middle-east&EU to the EU something that the USA would no read. Equally we do seem to ... tolerate militant minded people (better to snoop then to get rid of them I guess)

Amsterdam routes the most data, Germany *CAN* route the next most data (but peaks out), LINX in London routes the next highest. ... further down the list we get USA T1 organisations.

Sure the NSA started their own surveillance on their own, GCHQ on their own (I am still surprised ppl here are shocked... we kinda knew gchq were going todo this back in the 90's once the new bld was built, especially due to a few bit I have picked up).

But at some point uk & us, being all chummy decided to share info (for obvious reason) and bam to compliment each other, their surveillance expanded. TO say one is worse than the other when it is a bilateral intelligence arrangement (forgoing the fact there will be alot we hold back and what the us holds back) is a moot statement ONCE a bilateral electronic intelligence gathering arrangement exists.

guilty by association. US used GCHQ data, UK used PRISM data so lets just drop this petty "urs is worse, no urs"... they complement and if one is guilty the other is for using the data no matter how it was obtained.

downside... the US being in control of the internet is going to come under increased international pressure, EU to alienate the UK more, Oceania is being formed
_________________
A free press is the unsleeping guardian of every other right that free men prize; it is the most dangerous foe of tyranny. Where men have the habit of liberty, the Press will continue to be the vigilant guardian of the rights of the ordinary citizen.


Last edited by Naib on Wed Jun 26, 2013 12:20 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
notageek
Tux's lil' helper
Tux's lil' helper


Joined: 05 Jun 2008
Posts: 121
Location: Bangalore, India

PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 12:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This thread is a weird pissing contest. One party alleges his country fucked him more, while the other alleges his.
_________________
The problem is not the problem. The problem is your attitude about the problem. Do you understand? --Capt Jack Sparrow.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Ahenobarbi
Developer
Developer


Joined: 02 Apr 2009
Posts: 345
Location: Warsaw, PL

PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 1:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

notageek wrote:
This thread is a weird pissing contest. One party alleges his country fucked him more, while the other alleges his.


What's important is that they focus on something utterly insignificant :wink:
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Naib
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 4111
Location: Removed by Neddy

PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ahenobarbi wrote:
notageek wrote:
This thread is a weird pissing contest. One party alleges his country fucked him more, while the other alleges his.


What's important is that they focus on something utterly insignificant :wink:

That the data was even captured OR the manhunt for someone confirming the programs existence to the us population and as such is being charged with... Espionage? Ie the american ppl are the enemy of the govn?

Ppl prob too scared to discuss due to prism
_________________
A free press is the unsleeping guardian of every other right that free men prize; it is the most dangerous foe of tyranny. Where men have the habit of liberty, the Press will continue to be the vigilant guardian of the rights of the ordinary citizen.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Bones McCracker
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 1564
Location: U.S.A.

PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
downside... the US being in control of the internet is going to come under increased international pressure, EU to alienate the UK more, Oceania is being formed

Exactly. :lol:

It's INGSOC, baby. Big Brother be watchin'
_________________
juniper wrote:
I use ubuntu, which is why I am posting here.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Butts McCokey
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 23 Apr 2004
Posts: 3327

PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
You have arbitrarily limited your definition of "badness" to "scope". You don't understand the scale of GCHQ data collection and are trying to minimize it. You are mistaken if you believe there are no Tier 1 internet circuits in Britain. Just because a circuit is owned and operated by a U.S. based company doesn't mean it's physically in the U.S. :roll:

Flapping your lips in ignorance does not answer the mail. But, if you want to live in denial and go through mental gymnastics just to protect the collectivist-authoritarian nature of your government, that's up to you. Just don't put too much effort into it, because it's patently obvious to everyone that's what you're doing. You could save some time by just saying "I'm fine with this".

You might want to read more, though. This, for example:
http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2013-06/24/gchq-tempora-101
I'll take that as "I concede" :P
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Butts McCokey
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 23 Apr 2004
Posts: 3327

PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 7:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I suppose the question is how much freedom are we willing to give up to be free?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Prenj
n00b
n00b


Joined: 20 Nov 2011
Posts: 13

PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 5:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cokehabit wrote:
I suppose the question is how much freedom are we willing to give up to be free?

++ :lol:
_________________
“If You Meet the Buddha on the Road, Kill Him”
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Bones McCracker
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 1564
Location: U.S.A.

PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 6:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cokehabit wrote:
BoneKracker wrote:
You have arbitrarily limited your definition of "badness" to "scope". You don't understand the scale of GCHQ data collection and are trying to minimize it. You are mistaken if you believe there are no Tier 1 internet circuits in Britain. Just because a circuit is owned and operated by a U.S. based company doesn't mean it's physically in the U.S. :roll:

Flapping your lips in ignorance does not answer the mail. But, if you want to live in denial and go through mental gymnastics just to protect the collectivist-authoritarian nature of your government, that's up to you. Just don't put too much effort into it, because it's patently obvious to everyone that's what you're doing. You could save some time by just saying "I'm fine with this".

You might want to read more, though. This, for example:
http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2013-06/24/gchq-tempora-101
I'll take that as "I concede" :P

It's good to have you back. :lol:
_________________
juniper wrote:
I use ubuntu, which is why I am posting here.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Bones McCracker
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 1564
Location: U.S.A.

PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 6:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cokehabit wrote:
I suppose the question is how much freedom are we willing to give up to be free?

More like how much freedom are we willing to give up to be "safe" (with safe in quotes for a reason).
_________________
juniper wrote:
I use ubuntu, which is why I am posting here.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Prenj
n00b
n00b


Joined: 20 Nov 2011
Posts: 13

PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 8:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
cokehabit wrote:
I suppose the question is how much freedom are we willing to give up to be free?

More like how much freedom are we willing to give up to be "safe" (with safe in quotes for a reason).

Safe from what exactly?
_________________
“If You Meet the Buddha on the Road, Kill Him”
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Bones McCracker
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 1564
Location: U.S.A.

PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes.
_________________
juniper wrote:
I use ubuntu, which is why I am posting here.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
smartass
Apprentice
Apprentice


Joined: 04 Jul 2011
Posts: 189
Location: right behind you ... (you did turn around, didn't you?)

PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it wouldn't be that hard for someone with access to a large botnet to bring such programs down.
They'd just have to generate enough traffic (even HTTP GET requests to nonexistent addresses could suffice) tainted with the right keywords which would generate so much information noise that the data collected by the program would be meaningless.

The question is, whether they'd be assisting "the real bad guys" by blinding the program. Would it be worth it?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
pjp
Administrator
Administrator


Joined: 16 Apr 2002
Posts: 16106
Location: Colorado

PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 2:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
I am still surprised ppl here are shocked... we kinda knew gchq were going todo this back in the 90's once the new bld was built, especially due to a few bit I have picked up).
Who is shocked? The snooping was supposedly wrapped in a "check mechanism." Snowden forced acknowledgement that the check mechanism was nothing more than smoke and mirrors. "Knowing" is one thing, admission is another. Sadly, nothing meaningful will change as a result, and people will reelect Democrats and Republicans, or "hold their breath" and not vote.
_________________
lolgov. 'cause where we're going, you don't have civil liberties.

In Loving Memory
1787 - 2008
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Bones McCracker
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 1564
Location: U.S.A.

PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 7:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
or "hold their breath" and not vote.

:lol:
_________________
juniper wrote:
I use ubuntu, which is why I am posting here.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
bogamol
Tux's lil' helper
Tux's lil' helper


Joined: 01 Nov 2009
Posts: 84
Location: Detroit, Michigan - The Home of Rock and Roll

PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 8:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Prenj wrote:
BoneKracker wrote:
cokehabit wrote:
I suppose the question is how much freedom are we willing to give up to be free?

More like how much freedom are we willing to give up to be "safe" (with safe in quotes for a reason).

Safe from what exactly?


You've never seen The Godfather?
_________________
Freedom is the oxygen of the soul. -Moshe Dayan

Juniper wrote:
I fail to see the relevance.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Butts McCokey
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 23 Apr 2004
Posts: 3327

PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Everyone seems to be sidestepping the question.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
bogamol
Tux's lil' helper
Tux's lil' helper


Joined: 01 Nov 2009
Posts: 84
Location: Detroit, Michigan - The Home of Rock and Roll

PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cokehabit wrote:
Everyone seems to be sidestepping the question.


I personally am not sure what you meant by it.
_________________
Freedom is the oxygen of the soul. -Moshe Dayan

Juniper wrote:
I fail to see the relevance.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Bones McCracker
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 1564
Location: U.S.A.

PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 4:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think I side-stepped it.

I can even be more specific by saying, "How much? Not this much". Wiretapping and spying on everybody (and keeping it all indefinitely) with the explanation that you're only going to look at if you have a reasonable suspicion is bullshit. That's almost exactly like telling a girl who doesn't want to be fucked that it's okay because you're only going to put your cock halfway in. Even if you believed it when you said it, it's far to tempting an invitation to abuse, and the kinds of abuse it enables are completely unacceptable in not only character but scale.

It is, very clearly, the exact kind of "unreasonable search" our Constitution guarantees us protection from. The protective constraints, judicial governance, and legislative oversight are all both inadequate and opaque.

As many people have commented in the press, we (and I mean our two countries, with mine leading the way down the rosy path) have created an "infrastructure" of authoritarianism that would be the wet dream of any totalitarian state that's ever existed, and we the ignorant masses are supposed to be comforted by the promise not to abuse it (with this promise coming from an Administration that, as we have been reminded by several recent scandals, is notorious for its bald-faced lies and which has demonstrably abused similar powers).
_________________
juniper wrote:
I use ubuntu, which is why I am posting here.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
notageek
Tux's lil' helper
Tux's lil' helper


Joined: 05 Jun 2008
Posts: 121
Location: Bangalore, India

PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 4:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What is the question?
_________________
The problem is not the problem. The problem is your attitude about the problem. Do you understand? --Capt Jack Sparrow.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Bones McCracker
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 1564
Location: U.S.A.

PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 5:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

notageek wrote:
What is the question?

I must assume it is the last question cokehabit asked (how much freedom are we willing to give up to be free), which he apparently thinks was clever (okay, it is a little bit clever, but it's also a false ouroboros). My response was that people aren't giving up freedom to be free; they are giving up freedom to be safe (and in many cases, for the illusion of being safe).

Furthermore, anyone actually believing they were giving up freedom to be free could only logically be doing so if they believed they were making a temporary sacrifice for a long-term benefit. In that case, the uncertainties become at least as salient as the magnitude of freedom being sacrificed (how long you are going to have to give it up for, and how certain you are that this temporary sacrifice is going to achieve the long-term benefit, is as important as how much freedom you are giving up). The indefinite (and thus far continuous) duration of this and the secrecy surrounding it (which creates a high level of uncertainty) are a big part of why this situation is troubling to those who value individual and human rights.
_________________
juniper wrote:
I use ubuntu, which is why I am posting here.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
wcg
Guru
Guru


Joined: 06 Jan 2009
Posts: 588

PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

De-anonymizing supposedly anonymous data:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/blog/2013/jun/05/data-protection-eu-anonymous

Let's be clear: this use of the NSA is 10% "national security" and
90% "Blackmail, Inc." (Connecting up phone numbers of hookers,
bookies, crack dealers, and so on with phone numbers of judges,
law enforcement personnel, building inspectors, EPA regulators, finance
industry regulators, people with high enough security clearances
to have access to supposedly classified data, FBI files, and so on
ad infinitum.)

This, I think, was Snowden's point: the domestic surveillance that
we know about and that privacy advocates complain about publically
is only the tip of the iceberg.
_________________
TIA
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Gentoo Forums Forum Index Off the Wall All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Page 4 of 5

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum