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Bones McCracker
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 12:33 am    Post subject: Transgender Restroom Choice Is a Human Right Reply with quote

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Born a boy biologically, Maines now self-identifies as a girl, dressing in girls’ clothing and sporting a typical 15-year-old girl’s hair and makeup. In addition to the harassment she faced from other kids, Maines also met intolerance by school officials, who refused to allow her to use the girls’ bathroom. Instead, in a remarkably insensitive decision, the school required her to use a staff bathroom after a grandparent of a male student complained that Maines shouldn’t be allowed in the little girls’ room.

Maines’ parents took her out of the school and sued the school, claiming their daughter’s potty segregation was a violation of Maine’s Human Rights Act, which prohibits discrimination against transgender people on the basis of their gender identity. While Maine’s Human Rights Commission held that the transgender girl was entitled to use the girls’ bathroom, a state court judge disagreed. Maine’s Supreme Court on Wednesday will hear her case, the latest evidence that the next frontier of the civil-rights movement is transgender and transsexual equality.
Quote:
We don’t necessarily need to eliminate gender-specific bathrooms to solve the problem—or even create a third (and fourth) category of bathroom. We can simply allow transgender people to use the bathroom that corresponds with their gender identity. In the school setting, this can be easily accomplished by having parents with transgender children choose which bathroom their kids will use.

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/113454/maine-supreme-court-decide-transgender-student-bathroom-case
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 12:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So if this nonsense goes through, all any guy has to say is that they "feel like a woman on the inside" and can legally go and hang out in female restrooms.

Sofa King We Todd Did.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 1:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Clangers maketh man". William of Wykeham (1324 - 1404)
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 1:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

it has a penis/cock/willie/tubesteak? Off you go to the boy's restroom you little pervert.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 1:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What is the basic idea between having separate restrooms to begin with?
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 2:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
What is the basic idea between having separate restrooms to begin with?


so little boys don't terrorize little girls?

So teenage boys don't constantly try to watch girls peeing?

to have at least one rape free room in the school?
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 2:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As one of the resident transgendered people...

the school made a reasonable accommodation for her, particularly given the reasonable fear the parents may have regarding their daughters being in the same bathroom as her.

What her parents and her have done is to use the legal system to try to force acceptance of her. The application of force is wrong, however noble the desire for acceptance, or at least tolerance, may be, and will likely just cause not only more resentment, but will cloud this teenager for the rest of her life.

Likewise, those that mock her to try to coerce her and other transgendered people back into the closet, are just as guilty in trying to force their views onto others, even if they didn't do so in the court room. I wonder how many of you posted on slashdot today... but really, all that I ask is, if you don't want to understand us, if you don't want to accept us, at least have the decency to treat us like any other human that has done nothing to harm you*.


* of course, there is a need for certain posters in OTW to insist that they know how to live everyone else's lives for them and we should have no freedom at all...
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 2:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
What is the basic idea between having separate restrooms to begin with?

it's to protect very young girls from dirty old men, but also saving everyone else from teenage girls.

have you ever gone in a girls' restroom at a high school? yes, high school boys use their fire hoses to pee on EVERYTHING. sometimes they even shit in the urinal, or pull the shit out of the toilet and wipe it all over the place.

... but high school girls' restrooms look like a fucking horror movie. the girls who actually had manners would sneak into the mens' room.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 2:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, so if it's about sexually-driven behavior (peeking, rape, etc.), then each attracted group must be separated from the group they attracted to (i.e., separate boys and girls). Following that algorithm, a boy who thinks he's a girl and looks like a girl should be in with the girls (assuming he isn't both transgendered and "gay" (i.e. gay back the other way -- like a boy who thinks he's a girl who likes girls), which I'm sure are out there too). Likewise, a girl who thinks she's a boy and looks like one should be in with the boys, except that there are boys who would rape her anyway just because she's got a vagina. So we need at least three bathrooms.

But, what do you do with the gays? To separate them from what they are attracted to, you'd have to create a one-person-at-a-time-only bathroom or put a supervisor in there. We don't have those now, however, and I suppose that's why there is so much dick-sucking going on in public restrooms.

Unless there is a large number of LGBTCQO students, I'd say that designating the faculty bathroom as their place to use makes sense as an interim solution. For future planning, schools should probably now be constructed with a number of single-person-only restrooms, so they can be designated for whatever is going on by then.

Then you've got the whole athletics thing too.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 2:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:

Unless there is a large number of LGBTCQO students, I'd say that designating the faculty bathroom as their place to use makes sense as an interim solution. For future planning, schools should probably now be constructed with a number of single-person-only restrooms, so they can be designated for whatever is going on by then.

Then you've got the whole athletics thing too.


In my school, from 5th grade (roughly 10 years old) on, the boys bathrooms all had the doors removed from the stalls and the gym locker rooms (whether the one for normal gym class or the other when we were in the pool) all had common showers we were forced to share. The girls had doors on their bathroom stalls and got private showers for gym. Needless to say, as a MTF that is attracted to women (I find everything about guys, including the body I was born into, to be repulsive), the situation was rather distressing to me and I would find ways to avoid the situation entirely (by going to the bathroom during class, using my asthma as an excuse to skip gym, avoiding showering after gym, etc).

Chances are, for every 1000 students, we're probably looking at one that is transgendered and 20-50 that are homosexual.

But regardless of that, why not install a number of single person, handicapped bathrooms for the students since there's almost guaranteed to be some in wheelchairs and the like? Pretty much solves the entire problem for just about everyone in a reasonable manner. Then again, the entire school system should be indicted for the failure that it is itself and we'd be better off not sending our kids there.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 2:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

noyb wrote:
at least have the decency to treat us like any other human that has done nothing to harm you


I do like to treat human beings with respect but I would also ask that you treat other human beings with respect. Respect for the truth is a good place to start. No matter how much you may wish to be a different sex, the fact is you are not. You can be a man who wants to be a woman if you like (or vice versa). You can dress however you like. You can have whatever sexual partners you can persuade, surprise or afford. But you cannot simply wish away a scientific fact like biology. That is, by definition, insane.

I say this from personal experience as a man who wants to be a woman who wants to be a man.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 2:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
What is the basic idea between having separate restrooms to begin with?
Repressed religious extremists who think others will act as they would like to act themselves.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 2:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgruff wrote:
noyb wrote:
at least have the decency to treat us like any other human that has done nothing to harm you


I do like to treat human beings with respect but I would also ask that you treat other human beings with respect. Respect for the truth is a good place to start.


Is this the mcgruff truth? Because you stick your head in the sand a lot. In fact, it's whenever it is convenient for you to do so.

Quote:

No matter how much you may wish to be a different sex, the fact is you are not. You can be a man who wants to be a woman if you like (or vice versa). You can dress however you like. You can have whatever sexual partners you can persuade, surprise or afford. But you can't simply wish away a scientific fact like biology. That is, by definition, insane.


So, if I'm XXY, what does that make me? If I was underexposed to testosterone in the womb and developed differently, what does that make me? If I was born intersexed and was assigned a gender by my doctor mutilating me without my consent at birth, what does that make me? If I have androgen insensitivity, what does that make me?

Simple fact is, biology isn't black and white and refuses to conform to the norms you arbitrarily want to set for it to make your simplified views valid.


Quote:
I say this from personal experience as a man who wants to be a woman who wants to be a man.


And your continued mockery shows your lack of respect, compassion and empathy... I wouldn't expect anything less from you.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 2:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't bring science into this. You're talking to mcgruff and only he has teh Scyents.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 2:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

noyb wrote:
So, if I'm XXY, what does that make me? If I was underexposed to testosterone in the womb and developed differently, what does that make me? If I was born intersexed and was assigned a gender by my doctor mutilating me without my consent at birth, what does that make me? If I have androgen insensitivity, what does that make me?


Are you any of those?
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 2:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
BoneKracker wrote:
What is the basic idea between having separate restrooms to begin with?
Repressed religious extremists who think others will act as they would like to act themselves.


As an atheist myself, I wouldn't be so quick to blame it on religion... there are plenty of people, regardless of belief system, that fear for their children, rationally or not.

I also don't blame the anti-transgender mockery on religion... that's more about being afraid of (and thus mocking) things that they don't understand. And a lot of people, again, regardless of religion, don't want to understand the various gender identity disorders because it raises uncomfortable questions, often of themselves, that they don't want to have to answer. Of my two closest friends, the one that I thought would have the biggest issue, since he's closet bi and would question what our 20 year friendship meant, was fine with it. It was the strictly hetero one that had a problem, even though he has a lot of gay friends and I'm not attracted to men anyway.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 2:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgruff wrote:
noyb wrote:
So, if I'm XXY, what does that make me? If I was underexposed to testosterone in the womb and developed differently, what does that make me? If I was born intersexed and was assigned a gender by my doctor mutilating me without my consent at birth, what does that make me? If I have androgen insensitivity, what does that make me?


Are you any of those?


yes
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 3:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe we should just do away with whole separate bathrooms concept altogether.

When I was a kid, I understood that they were separate because boys and girls weren't supposed to see each other's private parts (because oh noes, that would make us want to have sex). But, who are we kidding? Kids today are fucking like rabbits and it's apparently okay. So what's the point? If it's safety from rape or harassment, then how a bathroom special? That can happen anywhere somebody is alone. Is it really that much more likely to happen where you've got your pants unfastened? If so, then put the stall doors back on, put emergency alarms in them, and require kids to always go the restroom with a "bathroom buddy". If necessary, put a supervisor in there (like the "lunch lady" we used to have to keep us behaving like animals in the cafeteria, or the playground monitors schools now have to prevent bullying). Combined bathrooms would be larger and less likely to have anybody alone in them anyway. People who just don't want to disgust members of the opposite sex, or be disgusted by them, can just get over their issue.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 3:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

noyb wrote:
mcgruff wrote:
noyb wrote:
So, if I'm XXY, what does that make me? If I was underexposed to testosterone in the womb and developed differently, what does that make me? If I was born intersexed and was assigned a gender by my doctor mutilating me without my consent at birth, what does that make me? If I have androgen insensitivity, what does that make me?


Are you any of those?


yes


OK:

XXY - still male
womb testosterone levels - no change in sex
androgen insensitivity - unresponsive but still male
malformed genitalia can arise from a range of causes

Sex is, by definition, very black and white. Exceptions are extremely rare.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 4:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgruff wrote:
noyb wrote:
mcgruff wrote:
noyb wrote:
So, if I'm XXY, what does that make me? If I was underexposed to testosterone in the womb and developed differently, what does that make me? If I was born intersexed and was assigned a gender by my doctor mutilating me without my consent at birth, what does that make me? If I have androgen insensitivity, what does that make me?


Are you any of those?


yes


OK:

XXY - still male
womb testosterone levels - no change in sex
androgen insensitivity - unresponsive but still male
malformed genitalia can arise from a range of causes

Sex is, by definition, very black and white. Exceptions are extremely rare.


Exceptions aren't as rare as you want them to be... I enjoy how dismissive you are about anything that may disrupt your world view. Congitive dissonance is a wonderful thing, allowing us to not have to actually change our beliefs according to information we hadn't previously considered.

How does that sand smell?
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 4:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

noyb wrote:
there are plenty of people, regardless of belief system, that fear for their children, rationally or not.
Any good parent fears for their children.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 4:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

noyb wrote:
I enjoy how dismissive you are about anything that may disrupt your world view.


I believe I'm being factual, not dismissive. True hermaphroditism is very rare.

What about all the behavioural "transgendered", ie those who have normal biology but wish to be another sex? Is that not delusional?
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 5:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

They should make a new version of Diff'rent Strokes populated by every type of sexual orientation. It would have a cast of thousands, but the jokes would still be lame and have canned laughter piped in at rapid but random points.

Quote:
Now, the world don't move to the beat of just one drum,
What might be right for you, may not be right for some.
A man is born, he's a man of means.
Then along come two, they got nothing but their genes.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 5:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgruff wrote:
noyb wrote:
I enjoy how dismissive you are about anything that may disrupt your world view.


I believe I'm being factual, not dismissive. True hermaphroditism is very rare.


Hermaphoridism isn't the only "other"

Quote:

What about all the behavioural "transgendered", ie those who have normal biology but wish to be another sex? Is that not delusional?


Are gay people dillusional because they're not attracted to the opposite sex?

We have very little understanding of the human brain... and it often does things that surprise us. We know the brain is capable of sustaining severe damage and rewiring itself (plasticity), but when it does so, without examining it, we might not know what area controls what anymore. An epileptic that has had a hemispherectomy shouldn't be able to use half of their body, yet, somehow, the brain changes and they often can.

fMRI tests show that the brains of gay men and MTF people resemble the brain activity normally associated with female brains. Is it beyond your comprehension that something like underexposure of testosterone and/or overexposure to synthentic estrogens in utero could cause the brain to be wired differently than what would normally happen according to simple genetics? Or that having a minor gene mutation could make it so that you don't develop male characteristics at all? Someone with complete androgen insensitivity syndrome would have what looks like an entirely female body and may not ever know they're gentically XY until they investigate their lack of menses and/or infertility issues (just think, that girl you banged without a condom that didn't get knocked up may genetically be a guy*, though it is a rare condition).

The only delusional people are the ones that try to pigeonhole that which is a spectrum into a boolean to fit their view of the world.


* would that make you gay? (hint, it wouldn't, everything you saw and were attracted to appears totally female) Which is one of the reasons why it's easier to mock transgendered people rather than come to understand them. It sometimes causes people to ask uncomfortable questions about themselves that they'd rather not think about, so it's easier to lash out.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 5:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sikpuppy wrote:
They should make a new version of Diff'rent Strokes populated by every type of sexual orientation. It would have a cast of thousands, but the jokes would still be lame and have canned laughter piped in at rapid but random points.

Quote:
Now, the world don't move to the beat of just one drum,
What might be right for you, may not be right for some.
A man is born, he's a man of means.
Then along come two, they got nothing but their genes.


Do they have George Takei constantly pop up and ask "ooh, whatchoo talking about puppy?" :lol:
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