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Prenj
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
Prenj wrote:
GabrielYYZ wrote:
I don't, thus my questions.

About the bold part, "we" as in "us here in the forum" or "we" as in humans? if it is the latter, that just confuses me more, how can we have treatment for something we know very little about?

PS: I don't get the "so thread lightly" comment, i don't think i'm being disrespectful/dismissive/agressive if that's what you mean by it. If, on the other hand, just asking questions is considered offensive, i guess i can just fuck off, since any subject that can't stand questions reeks of dogma to me and i want none of that.

Why is this so dogmatic to you btw? Transgendered people have existed since humanity existed, before we even knew the word "psychology". Old cultures had traditional names for such people, they accomodated them within the society and everything. It is only at odds with abrahamic monotheists, and the gap between your cultural programming and the reality of that fact is so big you need PROOF to accept it. How about you offer us PROOF that whatever your culture taught you was true?


from what I can tell he is genuinely asking questions. I don't think he is coming down on one side or the other.

Side? As in it is our business to take a stance what other people should feel like, think like or do with their bodies? Then we are talking about two sides, authoritarian-collective-cultural-narrative (most commonly in western world influenced by christianity, cartesianism, etc) or individual-empowering-true-liberal side.
If that is what we are talking about, then I am absolutely taking side.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GabrielYYZ wrote:
Wait, so we should leave people with schizophrenia alone, because that's one of the properties that make them an individual human being?

Frankly, as long as their delusional episode doesn't pose a threat to anyone and they're content when you point out their delusion, then sure. John Nash, for example, is a schizophrenic who didn't harm anyone, on the contrary, when he was 'off his meds' he was able to produce invaluable game theories and mathematical insights which aided other discoveries in physics. So it's not as if schizophrenics can't function highly, they don't have a permanent never-ending delusional episode.

GabrielYYZ wrote:
How do we determine that to fix GID == sex reassignment therapy/surgery/hormones and schizophrenia == antipsycotics?

The distinction (for me) is simple, does your brain defect threaten anyone else (and by that, I mean it can be established that your condition compelled you to attempt to harm an individual, precrime is bullshit)? If yes, then we need to think about fixing the damage which compelled you. And by fix, I don't mean shoving anti-psychotics down their gullets for the rest of their lives, which can cause more harm than it solves.

GabrielYYZ wrote:
I guess my confusion is this: if Person A has gender dysphoria and we accept it is a brain issue, why is it preferable to treat it by doing what Person A wants/feels-is-right and not something else?

It's simple, the danger and the ethical dubiousness of allowing the frivolous development of personality alteration technologies and techniques is far too great a threat to the rest of us.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Prenj wrote:
GabrielYYZ wrote:
I don't, thus my questions.

About the bold part, "we" as in "us here in the forum" or "we" as in humans? if it is the latter, that just confuses me more, how can we have treatment for something we know very little about?

PS: I don't get the "so thread lightly" comment, i don't think i'm being disrespectful/dismissive/agressive if that's what you mean by it. If, on the other hand, just asking questions is considered offensive, i guess i can just fuck off, since any subject that can't stand questions reeks of dogma to me and i want none of that.

Why is this so dogmatic to you btw? Transgendered people have existed since humanity existed, before we even knew the word "psychology". Old cultures had traditional names for such people, they accomodated them within the society and everything. It is only at odds with abrahamic monotheists, and the gap between your cultural programming and the reality of that fact is so big you need PROOF to accept it. How about you offer us PROOF that whatever your culture taught you was true?


Why the fuck does every subject, to you, boils down to cultural programming and dogma? I sensed as much with your comment but holy flying fuck.

I don't need "PROOF" to accept "it" (whatever it you're talking about), i support transgendered people as much as i can. The thing is, i didn't know about some things talked about in this thread and others confused me a bit, so i asked questions. I don't think i'm less supportive of a fellow human being by asking questions, but i do like to be informed about a subject i know little about.

@aidanjt: I guess i mostly agree but i'm still thinking about point #3.
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Prenj
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GabrielYYZ wrote:
Why the fuck does every subject, to you, boils down to cultural programming and dogma? I sensed as much with your comment but holy flying fuck.

Because it's pervasive and the usual culprit. If I'm wrong then I apologize.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aidanjt wrote:
GabrielYYZ wrote:
I guess my confusion is this: if Person A has gender dysphoria and we accept it is a brain issue, why is it preferable to treat it by doing what Person A wants/feels-is-right and not something else?

It's simple, the danger and the ethical dubiousness of allowing the frivolous development of personality alteration technologies and techniques is far too great a threat to the rest of us.


Also, I think that in a situation were someone brings to the medical world an issue that they have voluntarily they should typically be given control over what treatment they would like to pursue so long as it is not deemed damaging or unsafe.

I fight for this right all the time with the medical industry, about simple things like prescriptions and pain medications. The medical world already seems to feel that they can just do whatever they want to us, because we are too stupid to know what we want/need. I certainly am against ANYTHING that strengthens that position any.

That said, yes in some cases I do think that there are people that seek out "solutions" that are damaging and/or unsafe. So there has to be a safety catch, but in general I want the default behavior to be to follow the wishes of the patient.

I mean otherwise all you are going to do is teach these people never to reveal themselves to the medical industry anyway -- and it's not like we have a test or screening process to find them if they don't come forward.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 7:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BonezTheGoon wrote:

I mean otherwise all you are going to do is teach these people never to reveal themselves to the medical industry anyway -- and it's not like we have a test or screening process to find them if they don't come forward.


As if doctors don't do enough to push their personal beliefs (founded or not) onto people, NY is now doing that legislatively by treating anyone with a "mental illness" as a convicted felon. What is a mental illness? It's up to the discretion of anyone that wants to persecute you. It could be a) you're on antidepressants/anxiolytics immediately after the death of a loved one b) you have a social anxiety disorder and are afraid of the public, not a threat to it c) you're transgendered or homosexual (which used to be considered a mental illness) d) you suffer from an eating disorder e) pick your favorite harmless "mental illness".

It doesn't mean you have to be a psychotic, raving lunatic to be stripped of your rights without a trial... just that you have some type of "mental illness" - something many/most* people are likely to experience at some point in their life anyway. But, by criminalizing it without a trial, people that DO need help, whether it be someone harmless or the full blown nut, will be less likely to seek it out. How far back can they look to pretend you're a threat and, likewise, how long until that "threat" expires?


* studies say that about half of Americans will suffer a mental health problem at some point in their life and a quarter of the population has experienced one in the last year
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Speaking of "mental illness," being forced to live in the wrong body has caused me chronic depression, a slew of anxiety/panic disorders, etc.

Some here will say that I should focus on treating those (the symptoms) rather than the real root cause. Drugs, therapy, etc don't work if you can't tackle the actual cause.

So, I can endure years of depression, with nothing really working to fix my problems... or I could treat the root problem, endure a year or two of immediately confronting my demons through transition, and likely come out relatively happy on the other side of things, without having to continue to fight all of those demons like I do now. Reality is, there will always be a little anxiety that someone will see that I'm transgendered and single me out for it, but that's far better than beating myself up on a daily basis because I can't just be me.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 9:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sikpuppy wrote:
BonezTheGoon wrote:
pjp wrote:
Muso wrote:
I'd prefer just making a bunch of individual little single occupancy restrooms.
++


That's essentially what I was saying, just with common to all sinks, mirrors, soaps, paper-towels, etc. So one big room to contain all the little single occupancy rooms, with real full-sized solid doors on each single occupancy room.

Sounds very communist. McGuff should approve.
As opposed to a layout where a bathroom might exist nowhere near plumbing, or with the only entrance from the back alley of a building? What makes it communist?
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
sikpuppy wrote:
BonezTheGoon wrote:
pjp wrote:
Muso wrote:
I'd prefer just making a bunch of individual little single occupancy restrooms.
++


That's essentially what I was saying, just with common to all sinks, mirrors, soaps, paper-towels, etc. So one big room to contain all the little single occupancy rooms, with real full-sized solid doors on each single occupancy room.

Sounds very communist. McGuff should approve.
As opposed to a layout where a bathroom might exist nowhere near plumbing, or with the only entrance from the back alley of a building? What makes it communist?

The fact that it's communal perhaps?
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 10:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lol
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 9:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

noyb wrote:
What you don't seem to grasp, is it isn't the body that determines gender, it is the brain...


But your arguments have been exclusively physiological. It's just a smoke screen, isn't it, to support the conviction that people have the right to choose whichever sex they want to be - ie gender tourism without any biological justification.

noyb wrote:
I had to stop denying reality, pretending that, if I just tried hard enough, I could be a man.


You can have sex with anyone you want. Or not, as you choose. Why would we sanction mutilating surgery for a non-medical reason which will remove the only functional genitalia you will ever have? Even if you think you want that, it is not ethical.

Other people with body dysmorphic dysphoria are equally determined to have surgery to remove a healthy leg, or arm. It would not be ethical to indulge their requests either.

noyb wrote:
It's not a matter of sucking it up and toughing it out, it's a matter of "I'd rather be dead than to continue to endure something so drastically, unbearably wrong."


It is not normal to feel disgusted by bodies of the sex opposite to the one you're sexually attracted to. People would normally feel... nothing much at all really. That right there identifies gender dysphoria as a psycopathology, specifically a form of body dysmorphic dysphoria.

I hope that people who need treatment get all the help and support they need but the first step in treatment is accurate diagnosis.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 10:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgruff wrote:
noyb wrote:
What you don't seem to grasp, is it isn't the body that determines gender, it is the brain...


But your arguments have been exclusively physiological. It's just a smoke screen, isn't it, to support the conviction that people have the right to choose whichever sex they want to be - ie gender tourism without any biological justification.


and yours have been routed in your binaryology mcgruff belief system...

Quote:

noyb wrote:
I had to stop denying reality, pretending that, if I just tried hard enough, I could be a man.


You can have sex with anyone you want. Or not, as you choose. Why would we sanction mutilating surgery for a non-medical reason which will remove the only functional genitalia you will ever have? Even if you think you want that, it is not ethical.

Other people with body dysmorphic dysphoria are equally determined to have surgery to remove a healthy leg, or arm. It would not be ethical to indulge their requests either.


It IS a sanctioned medical reason... just one that you personally choose to not recognize, since it doesn't fit your personal agenda of binaryology. Teh scyents!

Quote:

noyb wrote:
It's not a matter of sucking it up and toughing it out, it's a matter of "I'd rather be dead than to continue to endure something so drastically, unbearably wrong."


It is not normal to feel disgusted by bodies of the sex opposite to the one you're sexually attracted to. People would normally feel... nothing much at all really. That right there identifies gender dysphoria as a psycopathology, specifically a form of body dysmorphic dysphoria.

I hope that people who need treatment get all the help and support they need but the first step in treatment is accurate diagnosis.


The first step is to remove your head from your rectum and then get out of your mother's basement... but I digress.

Let me throw you another loop, since you know it all.

I'm not attracted to men. At all. Period. I said as much on page 1, but you don't actually pay attention to anything outside of your worldview.

So by all means, keep displaying your ignorance... show the people that would normally agree with you just how enlightened you really are.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 12:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

noyb wrote:
and yours have been routed in your binaryology mcgruff belief system...


I know bullshit when I see it. I do accept that body dysmorphic disorder should be treated but not with surgery (!).

Quote:
It IS a sanctioned medical reason... just one that you personally choose to not recognize, since it doesn't fit your personal agenda of binaryology. Teh scyents!


Someone has to be the grown-up and say "no".

Quote:
I'm not attracted to men. At all. Period. I said as much on page 1, but you don't actually pay attention to anything outside of your worldview.

So by all means, keep displaying your ignorance... show the people that would normally agree with you just how enlightened you really are.


I didn't say you were. The point is that you are free to assail people of either sex with whatever's in your pants regardless of anybody's gender. This is just another bullshit argument: "I want to have sex with a woman but I can't because I'm a man".
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 5:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgruff wrote:
noyb wrote:
and yours have been routed in your binaryology mcgruff belief system...


I know bullshit when I see it. I do accept that body dysmorphic disorder should be treated but not with surgery (!).


Because you're ignorant... gleefully ignorant.

Quote:

Quote:
It IS a sanctioned medical reason... just one that you personally choose to not recognize, since it doesn't fit your personal agenda of binaryology. Teh scyents!


Someone has to be the grown-up and say "no".


And you are the ignorant authoritarian that has taken it upon yourself to be the sole arbiter, based upon the mcgruffian scyents of binaryology

Quote:

Quote:
I'm not attracted to men. At all. Period. I said as much on page 1, but you don't actually pay attention to anything outside of your worldview.

So by all means, keep displaying your ignorance... show the people that would normally agree with you just how enlightened you really are.


I didn't say you were. The point is that you are free to assail people of either sex with whatever's in your pants regardless of anybody's gender. This is just another bullshit argument: "I want to have sex with a woman but I can't because I'm a man".


You're the one who was accusing me of being attracted to men yet not understanding how I was disgusted by them. You know absolutely nothing on the topic. I've met evangelical christians more knowledgeable and tolerant than you.

Frankly, you should be ashamed of yourself. But you won't be - you'll rationalize that you have all the answers and you know so much better... you do every time you're proven wrong (btw - BK is still waiting for you to get back to him on a couple threads where you also proved your ignorance there).

And with that, I'm done with you. It's pointless to debate with someone that makes up their own faxts and scyents so that the cognitive dissonance doesn't make their head asplode.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 6:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

@noyb: As mcgruff pointed out (which was what i was trying to remember before), how do you feel about amputation to treat body integrity identity disorder? Would you say it's alright to surgically remove an arm or a leg to make someone feel alright?
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 6:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think noyb is BroneKrackers mini-me.

Discuss.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 6:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

noyb wrote:
And you are the ignorant authoritarian that has taken it upon yourself to be the sole arbiter, based upon the mcgruffian scyents of binaryology


You just don't like to have your ideas about gender challenged. You've convinced yourself that you've got a female brain - whatever that is - and claim that makes you revolted at your male body. Seemingly all nice and logical but in fact completely barmy. If I woke up in a different body tomorrow it wouldn't make a damn bit of difference. You know why? Because male and female bodies hardly differ. Everything I can do as a man I could continue to do as a woman. Why should I feel disgusted at my new body?

Disgust is just a symptom of body dysmorphic dysphoria not some complex, transgender tragedy.

Quote:
You're the one who was accusing me of being attracted to men


In your imagination, yes, in reality, no. I don't care what you're attracted to.

Quote:
Frankly, you should be ashamed of yourself. But you won't be - you'll rationalize that you have all the answers and you know so much better... you do every time you're proven wrong (btw - BK is still waiting for you to get back to him on a couple threads where you also proved your ignorance there).


No-one has ever proven me wrong. This is OTW.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 6:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GabrielYYZ wrote:
Would you say it's alright to surgically remove an arm or a leg to make someone feel alright?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DA43DS2c12c
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 8:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgruff wrote:
GabrielYYZ wrote:
Would you say it's alright to surgically remove an arm or a leg to make someone feel alright?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DA43DS2c12c


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 8:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

See here is the problem...
"gender" is fast becoming a very very VERY bad term to classify (if you so need to classify... we are all human)
As our understanding of the human body increases, how the mind works, society adapts around "behaviour"

Lets be blunt here. Gender is based upon the (external) biological sex of an induvidual. That is what is was in the middle ages, that is what it had been for centries, THAT is what it got defined as by some doctor in the 50's.

You look at someone "oh they are male" Its a BINARY label: Male or Female "do they have a willy? yes: Male, no: Female" its the 1st thing the midwife will look for at a scan (well they actually look for a hamburger since it is easier to confirm female :) ), it is the 1st thing the dr/midwife looks for at birth.

Immediatly you are pigeonholes and there is ZERO you can say to deny that and that is what the term/label is.
And now we come downto the ntty gritty that starts to come out after the 1st minute of birth (which may take decades to manifest or be discovered).

There is genetics involved not just the external appearance: XXY but has a willy oO what are they
The induvidual thinks they are in the wrong body: what are they
they behave like the opposite sex: what are they

the term "Gender" from a professional point of view covers multiple aspects of a human BUT still the term is used.

Externally Male: M[X] F[ ]
Thinks they are a Female: M[ ] F[X]
Behaviour mostly female characterists (as per this decades trends...): M[ ] F[X]

M:1 F:2 oh must be Female. Bullshit. You can't weight the input to a binary term like this and this is why the use of such a binary label is being strained. Shall we start using "I am 66% female" (and even then that is assuming a binary response to these questions when in practice they themselves could be weighted...). If a 66% female who is 100% externally of typical male characteristics walked into a female changing room at a swimming pool, what do you think will happen? "oh its ok they are 66% female"


Anyway riddle me this...
I don't know what women think like, I only know what one person thinks like (ie me) and even then I do not know if that is typical or atypical thinking for a male. what am I from a mind point of view.


tl;dr Gender is a shite term to use to classify mammals with an expanding list of deterministic & nondeterministic attributes...
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 8:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sikpuppy wrote:
I think noyb is BroneKrackers mini-me.

Discuss.

:lol:

Not.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GabrielYYZ wrote:
@noyb: As mcgruff pointed out (which was what i was trying to remember before), how do you feel about amputation to treat body integrity identity disorder? Would you say it's alright to surgically remove an arm or a leg to make someone feel alright?


I'm not an authority in BIID, but my take is that they're really not that different from "normal" people that have a desire to "perfect" their body. Most people want to pierce their ears, get a tattoo, wear makeup, cut their hair, donning perfumes and deodorants, etc. Most of those things don't have any real long term health implications*, or at least we tend to overlook them since everyone does them. Someone with BIID takes that to an extreme, wanting to perfect their body by permanently altering it in a way that has an immediate negative consequence. They're doing what we all do, just taking it to such an extreme that we recognize what they do as nuts even though we don't recognize what we do as nuts. They'll sometimes even get themselves killed (usually through blunt trauma or bleeding) in an attempt to get the amputations they seek since no surgeons will treat them.

Now, doctors have an innate duty to do no harm. They aren't required to help someone fulfill their wishes if they believe those wishes will be harmful. But, why is it that they will, say, do a purely rhinoplasty or boob job on someone that is otherwise healthy but unhappy with their body, if elective surgery, in principle, is harmful**?

The fundamentals of freedom start with the principle that we, alone, own our body. As soon as we allow other people to tell us what we can or cannot do to it, so long as we aren't harming anyone else, we are no longer free. If people with BIID want to be amputees, they should be able to remove the limb they want. That doesn't mean a doctor should be compelled to do it, however (for that is removing the doctor's freedom). By the same token, if someone wants to commit suicide, it is their fundamental right to end their life.

Now, that doesn't mean that we shouldn't try to help those people find other ways of dealing with their issues, whether it's someone that fundamentally sees their leg as foreign to their body or someone that wants to kill themselves. While I believe psychologists and psychiatrists are largely full of crap and routed more in intuition rather than actual science***, therapy can be very helpful in treating a wide array of psychological issues.

Now, here's what empirical science says about treating transgendered people. Therapy to try to convince them their their body and brain really are in congruence fails, just like trying to convince someone that is gay will not convince the vast, vast majority of gay people that they are straight. Such therapy fails so badly that people will resort to, often silently, committing suicide rather than continue to face people that don't understand what they see in themselves and try to coerce them into being something they cannot be. On the other hand, therapy meant to weed out people that aren't transsexuals****, followed by a plan of chemically and surgically altering them so that their body finally matches their brain (since we can't alter the brain all that well), has one of the highest success rates in all of psychology, resulting in not endless treatment, but a veritable cure. Sure, we can talk about the very, very small number of people that went that far and regretted it, but we can also talk about how people have died from an overdose of antibiotics sending them into renal failure, so does that mean antibiotics are bad too? Or does it mean "well, antibiotics, I can understand and benefit from myself, but you transgendered people are too weird to want to understand?"


* ok, a lot of them DO have real health implications ranging from infection to poisoning, possibly even resulting in death

** I think we can all agree that reconstructive surgery to repair trauma is far more humane and less harmful to someone than refusing to intervene

*** it's routed in things like binaryology and scyents, where the agenda of the scyentist is all that matters

**** again, gender is a spectrum and some people do go through confusion where they don't know where they really fall on that spectrum or whom believe that, because they like to crossdress, they should become the other gender so that the social stigma will go away
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sikpuppy wrote:
I think noyb is BroneKrackers mini-me.

Discuss.


Nope, I'm someone else. I don't post that often, but I read OTW daily. Who I am shouldn't really matter all that much, though I'd rather not out myself for obvious reasons.
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noyb
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:

M:1 F:2 oh must be Female. Bullshit. You can't weight the input to a binary term like this and this is why the use of such a binary label is being strained. Shall we start using "I am 66% female" (and even then that is assuming a binary response to these questions when in practice they themselves could be weighted...). If a 66% female who is 100% externally of typical male characteristics walked into a female changing room at a swimming pool, what do you think will happen? "oh its ok they are 66% female"


As I said, I'm fine with the solution the school gave. Let them (us) use a separate bathroom.

Quote:

Anyway riddle me this...
I don't know what women think like, I only know what one person thinks like (ie me) and even then I do not know if that is typical or atypical thinking for a male. what am I from a mind point of view.


Statistics usually won't say what will happen in an individual case, but it can give you somewhat of a broad understanding of trends in the general case.

People that buy razors are very likely to shave.
People that have bought tampons are more likely to be younger females or their mothers.
People that buy razors and tampons are likely to be susceptible for marketing our new "female" razor to, where we can then create brand loyalty

There are lots of ways of breaking down the resulting thought processes and it's often done precisely for ^ that, to market to us, whether that be for goods or politicians.

Breaking things down further, you'll find that some groups react out of fear, others are less likely to recognize real threats, etc.

At the physiological level, using tools like fMRI, we can see that, while very similar, male and female brains activate slightly differently, just like human and ape DNA is very similar overall, but the difference is in a few details. Studies show that men tend to have visual and auditory spacial awareness (probably evolutionally selected to improve hunting), while women tend to be better at empathy (important for keeping family life stable, but a detriment when you're out there hunting and suddenly empathize with your prey). Those studies are further backed up by what we see on fMRI, where certain locations in the brain associated with things like our visual cortex or anterior insular cortex, correlate with the behaviors we see. Examine enough brains and you will see patterns between male and female, people with anxiety and people without, etc.
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Bones McCracker
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 11:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

noyb wrote:
sikpuppy wrote:
I think noyb is BroneKrackers mini-me.

Discuss.


Nope, I'm someone else. I don't post that often, but I read OTW daily. Who I am shouldn't really matter all that much, though I'd rather not out myself for obvious reasons.

I think you're lying. I think you're me, but you're just pretending to be some transvestite (or whatever the currently in vogue term is) in order to mock people who have me pigeon-holed as some kind of right-wing Archie Bunker stereotype. Admit it. You're me. :P
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True Liberals are individualists. Democrats, on the other hand, are authoritarian collectivists.
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