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Tux's lil' helper
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 2:03 pm    Post subject: How many gentoo developers are needed to apply a patch? Reply with quote

I'm asking because I honestly do not know. There is this really simple, stupid, and annoying bug (https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=334329) which has been hanging around like for the last three years, and yesterday I finally managed to get some attention to it (my methods do not seems to be appreciated, still it doesn't mean they are not effective). But it is pretty clear that despite having a patch submitted those guys (five of them! FIVE!!!) still cannot resolve the issue. Reminds me of... huh... there was already a thread about gentoo staff incompetence, wasnt there?

And by the way, what is gentoo user relations project for? I've been thinking about this all morning (when I wasn't playing AirMech) and I still can't think how this project might be useful except for creating several kilobytes of whining about how somebody's bad language offends somebody else, or threatening to ban me (one of the most ridiculous threats ever!).

So how can I avoid all that definitely excessive bureaucracy and just get stuff working? I'm having my private overlay at the moment where I fix bugs, but I would really like it to be useful to everybody while not fragmenting portage tree.
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frostschutz
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Usually someone submits a new ebuild (or a patch, or whatever), three other blokes (who had the same issue and found your ebuild in the tracker) say it works fine for them, and thus it goes into the tree... I haven't met much resistance in that regard so far. Abuse doesn't get you anywhere. Attention yes, but what you need is someone motivated to actually care, and you won't get there with abuse. At least I think it unlikely. A "me too, works for me" usually just works better.

Also I don't think there's any project or any bugtracker that doesn't have a bug or two that got left behind, it just happens. How many people use those flags for tcpdump? (I don't). How many use tcpdump at all? (I do, sometimes). Maybe in the grand scheme of things the bug is simply a bit on the irrelevant side, so nobody really cares either way.
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Tux's lil' helper
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 2:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

frostschutz wrote:
Also I don't think there's any project or any bugtracker that doesn't have a bug or two that got left behind, it just happens.


I have seen projects which contain no bugs. You wanna know how they do that? They fix them! I have seen OpenBSD guys fix Evince segfault by investigating the problem down to a libc stack alignment bug and commiting the fix in less than three hours. This is where the whole linux community fails and not only gentoo. Also, your "if almost everyone around sucks it is ok for us to suck too" excuse is just lame.
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TomWij
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you think this bug is the only bug they have to work on, that they immediately take in unreviewed user patches, that unacceptable behavior speeds it up; then your expectations are way too high.

2013-06-01 12:49:10 UTC Complaint from you a long time after a fix was applied, no further fixes were clear at this point and / or developers are too busy.
2013-06-01 15:54:58 UTC After inquiry, patch sent by your friend.
2013-06-02 12:08:55 UTC Another complaint from you, less than a day after the patch has been filed.

Furthermore, not everyone in that thread is maintainer of the package in question; in fact, only one of them was for most of the thread and that person was willing to cooperate with you. But as a result of the behaviour in that bug another developer decided that the responses to that bug went way too far, and now the opposite results were reached instead of what you want. It takes one developer to fix it, unless you pull in attention from more developers for no good reason; also, comparing the massive amount of bugs for a project as large as Gentoo to a small amount of bugs of a small project like Evince will get you nowhere. Don't come up with lame excuses...
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666threesixes666
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

can i gripe about xfce4-volumed version 0.2.0 not being in portage, the one that supports pulse audio.... i just compiled it from scratch from launch pad and it works like 10,000,000 times better than 0.1.3
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https://wiki.gentoo.org/index.php?title=Special:Contributions/666threesixes666&offset=&limit=500&target=666threesixes666
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Tux's lil' helper
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TomWij wrote:
comparing the massive amount of bugs for a project as large as Gentoo to a small amount of bugs of a small project like Evince will get you nowhere. Don't come up with lame excuses...


I wasn't talking about evince, i was taling about openbsd, which is apparently larger and has smaller staff than gentoo.

Also you forgot my comment from december 2012 where I posted that the specific line in the ebuild is causing all the problems. So make it six months, not one day.
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consus
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TomWij wrote:
If you think this bug is the only bug they have to work on, that they immediately take in unreviewed user patches, that unacceptable behavior speeds it up; then your expectations are way too high.

2013-06-01 12:49:10 UTC Complaint from you a long time after a fix was applied, no further fixes were clear at this point and / or developers are too busy.
2013-06-01 15:54:58 UTC After inquiry, patch sent by your friend.
2013-06-02 12:08:55 UTC Another complaint from you, less than a day after the patch has been filed.

Furthermore, not everyone in that thread is maintainer of the package in question; in fact, only one of them was for most of the thread and that person was willing to cooperate with you. But as a result of the behaviour in that bug another developer decided that the responses to that bug went way too far, and now the opposite results were reached instead of what you want. It takes one developer to fix it, unless you pull in attention from more developers for no good reason; also, comparing the massive amount of bugs for a project as large as Gentoo to a small amount of bugs of a small project like Evince will get you nowhere. Don't come up with lame excuses...


I guess you are missing a point here: we are talking about (sic!) 3 y.o. (sic!) major bug in (sic!) one of the most popular network analyzers. And when we came out with patch that fixes the issue (I've tested it, honestly) maintainers just switched the bug state to "NeedPatch". And fix was available since late 2012, btw.
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iamben
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

consus wrote:
I guess you are missing a point here: we are talking about (sic!) 3 y.o. (sic!) major bug in (sic!) one of the most popular network analyzers. And when we came out with patch that fixes the issue (I've tested it, honestly) maintainers just switched the bug state to "NeedPatch". And fix was available since late 2012, btw.
The point you seem to be missing, is that this behavior is unacceptable regardless of what the back story on the bug/patch was. Our community can't function when you throw basic decency & respect out the window.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

iamben wrote:
Our community can't function when you throw basic decency & respect out the window.


Respect must be earned and it can be easily lost. Your so called community already fails to function because it does not acknowledge failures of its members.
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TomWij
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

666threesixes666 wrote:
can i gripe about xfce4-volumed version 0.2.0 not being in portage, the one that supports pulse audio.... i just compiled it from scratch from launch pad and it works like 10,000,000 times better than 0.1.3


No bug, no party.

grey_dot wrote:
I wasn't talking about evince


Yet you mention it.

grey_dot wrote:
Also you forgot my comment from december 2012 where I posted that the specific line in the ebuild is causing all the problems. So make it six months, not one day.


That's irrelevant to this thread, which explicitly mentions patch; now if we look at the time between the patch and the commit we see that it has been applied in under a day, quite fast.

consus wrote:
3 y.o.


Your patch is not 3 years old.

consus wrote:
major


Yet nobody really has a problem with it, I'd consider this a quite normal bug.

consus wrote:
one of the most popular network analyzers


But not more popular than the rest of the popular software in the Portage tree; put things in the right perspective, please.

If it was quite popular, then why are only 8 users involved?

consus wrote:
And when we came out with patch that fixes the issue (I've tested it, honestly) maintainers just switched the bug state to "NeedPatch". And fix was available since late 2012, btw.


Your patch was available about a day ago.

grey_dot wrote:
Respect must be earned and it can be easily lost. Your so called community already fails to function because it does not acknowledge failures of its members.


Members that complain, come late with a patch and can't wait for a day for it to be applied; then don't want to acknowledge that their expectations were to high, perhaps on their way to rage quit.

If you think about our contributions, think about your own contributions first; don't expect magic to happen with the attitude you set, it'll do you no good...
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Tux's lil' helper
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TomWij wrote:

grey_dot wrote:
I wasn't talking about evince


Yet you mention it.


I wonder if you are able to actually understand the text you read.

TomWij wrote:
grey_dot wrote:
Also you forgot my comment from december 2012 where I posted that the specific line in the ebuild is causing all the problems. So make it six months, not one day.


That's irrelevant to this thread, which explicitly mentions patch; now if we look at the time between the patch and the commit we see that it has been applied in under a day, quite fast.


Frankly I have never thought that a competent developer requires a patch to wrap a single line into an if-statement because of not being able just to do it on his own. I can see my mistake now.
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iamben
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe one of us can take you out for a beer and we can talk this out? Really I don't know where all the hate comes from, we're all good people :)
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

iamben wrote:
Maybe one of us can take you out for a beer and we can talk this out? Really I don't know where all the hate comes from, we're all good people :)


Maybe one of you could go and fix all those bugs in bugzilla given that there already are patches submitted a long time ago for many of them.
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iamben
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As volunteers, the devs do as much as they can, but they also have day jobs and personal lives, and also need beers sometimes. Maybe even need more beers than your average non-dev.
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TomWij
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

grey_dot wrote:
iamben wrote:
Maybe one of us can take you out for a beer and we can talk this out? Really I don't know where all the hate comes from, we're all good people :)


Maybe one of you could go and fix all those bugs in bugzilla given that there already are patches submitted a long time ago for many of them.


Ah, I see a lot of maintainer-needed and maintainer-wanted bugs with those; perhaps you could become a (proxy) maintainer for them and help us out instead of keeping us busy? :wink:
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likewhoa
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@grey_dot just become a developer or proxy maintainer for the ebuilds in question. I say go for the former first ;)
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Tux's lil' helper
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TomWij wrote:
grey_dot wrote:
iamben wrote:
Maybe one of us can take you out for a beer and we can talk this out? Really I don't know where all the hate comes from, we're all good people :)


Maybe one of you could go and fix all those bugs in bugzilla given that there already are patches submitted a long time ago for many of them.


Ah, I see a lot of maintainer-needed and maintainer-wanted bugs with those; perhaps you could become a (proxy) maintainer for them and help us out instead of keeping us busy? :wink:


Ok. You can find my email in bugzilla. Send me credentials with an access to the portage repo, I'll fix this stuff myself.
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iamben
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/devrel/handbook/handbook.xml?part=1&chap=2
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

iamben wrote:
http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/devrel/handbook/handbook.xml?part=1&chap=2


I believe consus has already tried that. Please read the question from the original post.
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iamben
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 5:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That was for you, that's how you get commit access to portage, so you can help fix this stuff.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

iamben wrote:
That was for you, that's how you get commit access to portage, so you can help fix this stuff.


Once again, read the document you have linked and then read the question from my original post which is - how can I avoid all that definitely excessive bureaucracy and just get stuff working? See what I mean?
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iamben
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 5:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe your options are to become a dev, or fix it in your local overlay, or pay a dev to do the work. Each of these has its pros/cons, of course.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

iamben wrote:
I believe your options are to become a dev, or fix it in your local overlay, or pay a dev to do the work. Each of these has its pros/cons, of course.



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TomWij
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

grey_dot wrote:
iamben wrote:
That was for you, that's how you get commit access to portage, so you can help fix this stuff.


Once again, read the document you have linked and then read the question from my original post which is - how can I avoid all that definitely excessive bureaucracy and just get stuff working? See what I mean?


By putting your hand on a more useful place than your face. No, we don't see what you mean; we became developers without any hassle, stuff is working fine here...
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Ant P.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

grey_dot wrote:
Respect must be earned and it can be easily lost.

You and consus would both do well to learn this. Your attitude belongs in youtube comments, not Gentoo's Bugzilla.
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