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iamben
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 12:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We don't need to bicker over the details of individual bugs... we all know that resources are limited. Some packages and architectures get more attention than others, and some even require very very specific expertise that only one or a few devs may possess. Those are just facts of life.

It's not because anyone lacks intelligence or sense, it's not because anyone is intentionally being stubborn, we just have finite resources.
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TomWij
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 12:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

consus wrote:
TomWij wrote:


Perhaps you should look into the Gentoo Infrastructure before pointing out things like QEMU, we surely do have machines. Now I will leave you guessing why we need more machines.

We're not as stupid as you may think, and we're certainly not high like you have just stated in your previous deleted post; why would you think such thing?


So you do have the machines, but this developer can't use them? For almost a year? Pretty stupid, don't you think?


Why do you think you immediately could get access to all the repositories and all the machines?

:arrow: Access has to be earned, with effort and respect.

Why do you think there is only one PPC package in the tree?

:arrow: There are certainly quite a lot of PPC packages in the tree.

Why do you think we only compile a package once on such machine?

:arrow: Testing involves compiling it multiple times, testing the different USE flags; furhermore, its tests and itself has to be ran thoroughly as well.


Last edited by TomWij on Mon Jun 03, 2013 12:22 am; edited 2 times in total
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consus
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 12:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

iamben wrote:
We don't need to bicker over the details of individual bugs... we all know that resources are limited. Some packages and architectures get more attention than others, and some even require very very specific expertise that only one or a few devs may possess. Those are just facts of life.

It's not because anyone lacks intelligence or sense, it's not because anyone is intentionally being stubborn, we just have finite resources.


You know what you should do? You need to allow more people to have rw on you Portage tree!
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consus
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 12:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TomWij wrote:
consus wrote:
TomWij wrote:


Perhaps you should look into the Gentoo Infrastructure before pointing out things like QEMU, we surely do have machines. Now I will leave you guessing why we need more machines.

We're not as stupid as you may think, and we're certainly not high like you have just stated in your previous deleted post; why would you think such thing?


So you do have the machines, but this developer can't use them? For almost a year? Pretty stupid, don't you think?


Why do you think you immediately could get access to all the repositories and all the machines?

:arrow: Access has to be earned, with effort and respect.

Why do you think there is only one PPC package in the tree?

:arrow: There are certainly quite a lot of PPC packages in the tree.

Why do you think we only compile a package once on such machine?

:arrow: Testing involves compiling it multiple times, testing the different USE flags; furhermore, its tests and itself has to be ran thoroughly as well.


And yadda-yadda. Six months, dude. Girls are able to bring a new life in nine. If you can't reach your machine pool, use QEMU. If you can't install it and use properly you shouldn't become a dev. Any questions?
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iamben
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 12:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

consus wrote:
You know what you should do? You need to allow more people to have rw on you Portage tree!
I'm not a developer, but I hope to be one day. I haven't yet been able to set aside the time to make it happen, but I appreciate those who have made such an effort.
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TomWij
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 12:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

consus wrote:
iamben wrote:
We don't need to bicker over the details of individual bugs... we all know that resources are limited. Some packages and architectures get more attention than others, and some even require very very specific expertise that only one or a few devs may possess. Those are just facts of life.

It's not because anyone lacks intelligence or sense, it's not because anyone is intentionally being stubborn, we just have finite resources.


You know what you should do? You need to allow more people to have rw on you Portage tree!


The person you're telling this to doesn't even have rw access.

Anyhow, why would we give rw access to people that may not be respectful and may not be able prove that they know what they are doing?

consus wrote:
And yadda-yadda. Six months, dude. Girls are able to bring a new life in nine. If you can't reach your machine pool, use QEMU. If you can't install it and use properly you shouldn't become a dev. Any questions?


Yes, what do you know about becoming a Gentoo Developer?


Last edited by TomWij on Mon Jun 03, 2013 12:22 am; edited 2 times in total
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consus
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 12:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TomWij wrote:
consus wrote:
iamben wrote:
We don't need to bicker over the details of individual bugs... we all know that resources are limited. Some packages and architectures get more attention than others, and some even require very very specific expertise that only one or a few devs may possess. Those are just facts of life.

It's not because anyone lacks intelligence or sense, it's not because anyone is intentionally being stubborn, we just have finite resources.


You know what you should do? You need to allow more people to have rw on you Portage tree!


The person you're telling this to doesn't even have rw access.

Anyhow, why would we give rw access to people that may not be respectful and may not be able prove that they know what they are doing?


Because you have no choice?
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TomWij
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 12:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

consus wrote:
Because you have no choice?


Exactly, I'm just another Gentoo Developer anyway; you're talking to the wrong person and aren't likely to achieve anything doing so, try some alternative means.


Last edited by TomWij on Mon Jun 03, 2013 12:25 am; edited 3 times in total
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consus
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 12:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TomWij wrote:
consus wrote:
iamben wrote:
We don't need to bicker over the details of individual bugs... we all know that resources are limited. Some packages and architectures get more attention than others, and some even require very very specific expertise that only one or a few devs may possess. Those are just facts of life.

It's not because anyone lacks intelligence or sense, it's not because anyone is intentionally being stubborn, we just have finite resources.


You know what you should do? You need to allow more people to have rw on you Portage tree!


The person you're telling this to doesn't even have rw access.

Anyhow, why would we give rw access to people that may not be respectful and may not be able prove that they know what they are doing?

consus wrote:
And yadda-yadda. Six months, dude. Girls are able to bring a new life in nine. If you can't reach your machine pool, use QEMU. If you can't install it and use properly you shouldn't become a dev. Any questions?


Yes, what do you know about becoming a Gentoo Developer?


I read the guide. Anyway, how is this related?
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TomWij
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 12:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's related to becoming a developer, something you likely shouldn't talk about if you don't even know what it takes and means.

Thank you for entertaining me on a Sunday night, going to catch some sleep so I can squash more bugs tomorrow. Have fun...


Last edited by TomWij on Mon Jun 03, 2013 12:27 am; edited 1 time in total
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consus
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 12:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TomWij wrote:
consus wrote:
Because you have no choice?

> Thank you for entertaining me on a Sunday night, going to catch some sleep so I can squash more bugs tomorrow. Have fun...


Oh, you... :)
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TomWij
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 12:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

consus wrote:
TomWij wrote:
consus wrote:
Because you have no choice?

> Thank you for entertaining me on a Sunday night, going to catch some sleep so I can squash more bugs tomorrow. Have fun...


Oh, you... :)


Seems you have removed a sentence, as clear by your > character:

TomWij wrote:
Exactly, I'm just another Gentoo Developer anyway; you're talking to the wrong person and aren't likely to achieve anything doing so, try some alternative means.


Night. 8)
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iamben
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 12:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It really has been a lot of fun. I, for one, am just glad that you gentlemen will NOT be leaving the gentoo community! But I'm a bit worried that you guys are not really enjoying life... is there anything a regular Joe like myself can do to help?
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consus
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 12:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TomWij wrote:
It's related to becoming a developer, something you likely shouldn't talk about if you don't even know what it takes and means.


If you forgot: we're talking about you guys not be able to use QEMU to test some package or to write a simple patch.
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consus
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 12:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TomWij wrote:
consus wrote:
TomWij wrote:
consus wrote:
Because you have no choice?

> Thank you for entertaining me on a Sunday night, going to catch some sleep so I can squash more bugs tomorrow. Have fun...


Oh, you... :)


Seems you have removed a sentence, as clear by your > character:

TomWij wrote:
Exactly, I'm just another Gentoo Developer anyway; you're talking to the wrong person and aren't likely to achieve anything doing so, try some alternative means.


Night. 8)


I copied this one to grey_dot in jabber, and then you edited your post :) Sorry.
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TomWij
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 12:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

consus wrote:
If you forgot: we're talking about you guys not be able to use QEMU to test some package or to write a simple patch.


Because you missed it last time: There's a difference between "not being able to use" and "it's too slow for our needs", we didn't state or indicate the former whatsoever.

consus wrote:
I copied this one to grey_dot in jabber, and then you edited your post :) Sorry.


I had to move the sleep / night message several times, but now I'm really gone; I think... I'm pretty tired now.
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consus
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 12:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TomWij wrote:
consus wrote:
If you forgot: we're talking about you guys not be able to use QEMU to test some package or to write a simple patch.


Because you missed it last time: There's a difference between "not being able to use" and "it's too slow for our needs", we didn't state or indicate the former whatsoever.


Six months is pretty slow. Building PPC gentoo in QEMU takes longer than 6 months?
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frostschutz
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 12:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

grey_dot wrote:
Also you forgot my comment from december 2012 where I posted that the specific line in the ebuild is causing all the problems. So make it six months, not one day.


Such a comment is easy to miss. Even if it's simple, you should still make a patch & attach it & state that this is the exact change that solves your problem. So everyone sees instantly, even without reading comments, that there's a patch in this thing. And when you bump an issue, also state again why you're bumping it. No one is likely to react to "any update?", your chances would be better if you pointed to the solution directly (again). Switching to insults instead doesn't solve anything.
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consus
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 5:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

frostschutz wrote:
grey_dot wrote:
Also you forgot my comment from december 2012 where I posted that the specific line in the ebuild is causing all the problems. So make it six months, not one day.


Such a comment is easy to miss. Even if it's simple, you should still make a patch & attach it & state that this is the exact change that solves your problem. So everyone sees instantly, even without reading comments, that there's a patch in this thing. And when you bump an issue, also state again why you're bumping it. No one is likely to react to "any update?", your chances would be better if you pointed to the solution directly (again). Switching to insults instead doesn't solve anything.


AFAIK you get email notification with brief description every time someone posts comment. So you just need to read this message. Is this really that hard?
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TomWij
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 6:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

consus wrote:
frostschutz wrote:
grey_dot wrote:
Also you forgot my comment from december 2012 where I posted that the specific line in the ebuild is causing all the problems. So make it six months, not one day.


Such a comment is easy to miss. Even if it's simple, you should still make a patch & attach it & state that this is the exact change that solves your problem. So everyone sees instantly, even without reading comments, that there's a patch in this thing. And when you bump an issue, also state again why you're bumping it. No one is likely to react to "any update?", your chances would be better if you pointed to the solution directly (again). Switching to insults instead doesn't solve anything.


AFAIK you get email notification with brief description every time someone posts comment. So you just need to read this message. Is this really that hard?


When there are hundreds of thousands of such comments, in our free time, yes.
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consus
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 7:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TomWij wrote:
consus wrote:
frostschutz wrote:
grey_dot wrote:
Also you forgot my comment from december 2012 where I posted that the specific line in the ebuild is causing all the problems. So make it six months, not one day.


Such a comment is easy to miss. Even if it's simple, you should still make a patch & attach it & state that this is the exact change that solves your problem. So everyone sees instantly, even without reading comments, that there's a patch in this thing. And when you bump an issue, also state again why you're bumping it. No one is likely to react to "any update?", your chances would be better if you pointed to the solution directly (again). Switching to insults instead doesn't solve anything.


AFAIK you get email notification with brief description every time someone posts comment. So you just need to read this message. Is this really that hard?


When there are hundreds of thousands of such comments, in our free time, yes.


Once again: get. more. staff. MOAR!
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TomWij
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 7:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

consus wrote:
TomWij wrote:
consus wrote:
frostschutz wrote:
grey_dot wrote:
Also you forgot my comment from december 2012 where I posted that the specific line in the ebuild is causing all the problems. So make it six months, not one day.


Such a comment is easy to miss. Even if it's simple, you should still make a patch & attach it & state that this is the exact change that solves your problem. So everyone sees instantly, even without reading comments, that there's a patch in this thing. And when you bump an issue, also state again why you're bumping it. No one is likely to react to "any update?", your chances would be better if you pointed to the solution directly (again). Switching to insults instead doesn't solve anything.


AFAIK you get email notification with brief description every time someone posts comment. So you just need to read this message. Is this really that hard?


When there are hundreds of thousands of such comments, in our free time, yes.


Once again: get. more. staff. MOAR!


Feel free to contribute; and well, I think you don't see the difference between staff and developers...


Last edited by TomWij on Mon Jun 03, 2013 7:23 am; edited 1 time in total
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steveL
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 6:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jeezus christ you two, get a room already.

This thread has descended into bickering, and sorry but i think consus is behaving like a 12 year old.

I liked the work you two did on forking udev, but technical expertise and social skills are two completely separate things. As you've so amply proven.

GET OVER IT.
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Dr.Willy
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 1:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know guys. I'm just an uninvolved bystander and I really couldn't care less about tcpdump.
Still, I cannot help but notice that there seem to be more people busy explaining just why and how exactly grey_dots behavior is unacceptable, than people trying to fix the actual bug.
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TomWij
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 2:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dr.Willy wrote:
Still, I cannot help but notice that there seem to be more people busy explaining just why and how exactly grey_dots behavior is unacceptable, than people trying to fix the actual bug.

You should also notice that the actual bug has actually been fixed before the explanations. :D
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