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khayyam
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PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2013 10:45 am    Post subject: Why Derivitive Distributions are "Unsupported" Reply with quote

User: apinsard
Topic: Sound not working
Post: post 7306884
Reason: funtoo

Split and preserved this from the Report violations, duplicates, misplaced posts, etc. topic as I believe it's useful discussion. — JRG
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PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2013 12:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

khayyam wrote:
User: apinsard
Topic: Sound not working
Post: post 7306884
Reason: funtoo

Why are you unfriendly against funtoo?
Funtoo is a true Gentoo derivate like siduction of Debian is.
I myself came from Funtoo: As a beginner it is much easier to follow Funtoo if you want current~unstable software. After two clueless tries with Gentoo I started with Funtoo and came back to Gentoo when I had learned some essentials.

Couldn't you just ask:
Does someone know if Funtoo differs from Gentoo in regard of audio?
Gentoo claims to be a meta distribution, isn't it?
Ok, Sabayon is a special case as they have two package systems in place ...
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John R. Graham
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PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2013 2:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's not that people are unwilling to help. It's not that we don't know where Funtoo came from. It's merely that Funtoo is not Gentoo and, as a result, Funtoo questions belong in Unsupported Software.

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PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2013 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John R. Graham wrote:
It's not that people are unwilling to help. It's not that we don't know where Funtoo came from. It's merely that Funtoo is not Gentoo

Hmm, all I want is Gentoo to be friendly to its derivates, because they often pave the way for beginners. When I was beginning: Funtoo essentially was Gentoo~unstable but 3 days behind and with an older stable toolchain (glibc). I don't know if now the difference has grown?

Debian has an extra derivates mailing list to discuss these issues. Perhaps we should somewhere have a documentation about differences: Perhaps a wiki page where derivative distributions and their differences to Gentoo are listed?
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khayyam
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PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2013 10:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ulenrich wrote:
Why are you unfriendly against funtoo? Funtoo is a true Gentoo derivate like siduction of Debian is.

ulenrich ... firstly, its not "unfriendly" that is a projection on your part. The reason we do not support funtoo is simple, we have limited resources and those resources are best directed toward gentoo and not wasted on projects that don't directly relate to our community. If a user wants to take advantage of those resources they can, but if they want to use funtoo then they can use the resources provided by the funtoo community, there should be no piggy-backing. This is entirely pragmatic, the code is there for anyone to use, but it doesn't come with the community as a support system, its easy to fork the code, the community, however, is a much more valuable commodity and can't be created out of thin air. If you want to create a derivative then fine, but it doesn't come with a free support system for your users, that is something you, your users, etc, have to bare the cost of. Its one of the mechanisms that prevents forking, fragmentation, etc.

Secondly, I'm more than happy to help others and I have done so in the past (see: here for instance) but this is entirely at my, and other users, discretion, and why these threads should be moved to "Unsupported Software". I, personally, have been involved in threads, and in discussions on #gentoo, where in the final denuding it turns out that the user is on funtoo/sabayon/arch and have been confronted with "oh, its the same" or "well, no one is alive in #channel" or "its not distribution specific", etc, etc ... and in these situations it most often wasn't "the same" or was "distribution specific" and I am asked to explain why I'm "unfriendly", like I somehow owe it to the persons involved to solve their specific problems. The reason I do what I do is for the benefit of the community which supports me, and it doesn't extend to those who expect that they can have their needs satisfied without any regard for that community.

ulenrich wrote:
I myself came from Funtoo: As a beginner it is much easier to follow Funtoo if you want current~unstable software. After two clueless tries with Gentoo I started with Funtoo and came back to Gentoo when I had learned some essentials.

This is somewhat besides the point, it doesn't matter if funtoo was for you a stepping stone to gentoo, its a different distribution with its own community and dynamic.

ulenrich wrote:
Couldn't you just ask: Does someone know if Funtoo differs from Gentoo in regard of audio?

I *could* have done a lot of things, but again, its besides the point. Given what I've said above it should be clear why our being the place to come for support for anything other than gentoo should be discouraged, and threads like this moved to "Unsupported Software".

ulenrich wrote:
Gentoo claims to be a meta distribution, isn't it?

Careful, you'll trip on your own shirt tails. Yes, "gentoo" is ... but if you want to then include everything that is derived from gentoo then your no longer speaking about "gentoo".

best ... khay
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PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2013 1:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

khayyam wrote:
...
If you want to create a derivative then fine, but it doesn't come with a free support system for your users, that is something you, your users, etc, have to bare the cost of. Its one of the mechanisms that prevents forking, fragmentation, etc.

Secondly, I'm more than happy to help others and I have done so in the past (see: here for instance) but this is entirely at my, and other users, discretion, and why these threads should be moved to "Unsupported Software". I, personally, have been involved in threads, and in discussions on #gentoo, where in the final denuding it turns out that the user is on funtoo/sabayon/arch and have been confronted with "oh, its the same" or "well, no one is alive in #channel" or "its not distribution specific", etc, etc ... and in these situations it most often wasn't "the same" or was "distribution specific" and I am asked to explain why I'm "unfriendly", like I somehow owe it to the persons involved to solve their specific problems.
...
best ... khay
Ok, acceptable explanation!
But in my argument I emphaze derivates as an entry point to Gentoo. And I expect people easily hiding their coming from if pushed like that. Perhaps it is more satisfactory to everyone to simply ask: "Why don't you put this issue at forums.funtoo.org?"
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PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2013 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that's a legitimate question to ask. I expect that the reason is because people generally get better, faster support here. It's not because the Funtoo folks are less smart or less friendly, but right now there's a lot more of us than there are them.

I think you understand that here on the Gentoo Forums, our primary focus is (and legitimately should be) Gentoo.

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khayyam
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PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2013 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ulenrich wrote:
But in my argument I emphaze derivates as an entry point to Gentoo. And I expect people easily hiding their coming from if pushed like that.

ulenrich ... far more users have come from debian/redhat/arch/etc and so these could also be considered "entry points", but none of them are "gentoo linux" and that is what the forum is here to support.

ulenrich wrote:
Perhaps it is more satisfactory to everyone to simply ask: "Why don't you put this issue at forums.funtoo.org?"

I have on many occasions (see here, here, and here) but often it isn't obvious that the poster is not using gentoo, in fact its often something that comes out sometime later.

I expect that funtoo users know where the funtoo forum is, but they come here none the less, and sometimes I don't have the time to personally point them to the correct forum, and so, that being the case, I'll hit report.

best ... khay
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Logicien
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PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2013 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you permit,
I don't think Funtoo is an entry point to Gentoo. For example, you can install a binary kernel in Funtoo without having to configure your own. Gentoo do not have that. But when you know how to configure your own kernel, you can do it from Funtoo and it will be easier instead of installing Gentoo to do it. In my opinion, there's nothing in Funtoo that is for make people switch to Gentoo at a moment or another.

This topic make me think to a question I have since long and must be clear in my head, why Daniel Robbins start Funtoo and did'nt continue to contribute to Gentoo?
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PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2013 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Logicien wrote:
This topic make me think to a question I have since long and must be clear in my head, why Daniel Robbins start Funtoo and did'nt continue to contribute to Gentoo?

I can't fault him (or others) for starting separate distributions. The forums may be nice but the dev mailing lists here are nastier than OpenBSD most of the time.
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PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2013 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Logicien,

The details of why drobbins left Gentoo are a matter of public record. See the -dev mailing list starting about 2004.
In a nutshell, drobbins had been funding Gentoo out of his own pocket. He was trying to make an income from Gentoo Tehcnologies Inc. but it wasn't enough. He left when he had to get a job. His employer was Microsoft ... read the list.

Briefly, drobbins did return to Gentoo but he was no longer the BDFL.

ulenrich,
There are lots of Gentoo derivatives. Sabayon, Funtoo, Pentoo, Calculate, Tinhat, Exherbo ... are just a few that spring to mind.
They all do their own thing that is different to Gentoo. That we like their users to come clean and post in Unsupported Software is because it reminds other users, that what worked in those threads may not work for Gentoo.

Unsupported Software does not imply that posters will get no support. It means no official Gentoo support. Respondents are welcome to provide help in Unsupported Software if they wish.
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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

First of all, I must admit and acknowledge it seems to be best practice for consistency sake and it is not unfriendly to move such posts to "unsupported Software". But what bothers me people don't get it:

Logicien wrote:
I don't think Funtoo is an entry point to Gentoo.

A distribution having many derivate distributions http://forums.gentoo.org/posting.php?mode=editpost&p=7308992is a growing and successful project. Not having such derivates signifies dead like exherbo. And becoming a derivate of its own fork this is a Mandriva special case.

When a project is forked in a way the child cannot give back upstream any more, like openoffice - libreoffice becomes a serious contender. But Funtoo and Sabayon have active maintainers giving back to Gentoo!

It just doesn't matter if entry or exit point ...
Quote:
..., why Daniel Robbins start Funtoo and did'nt continue to contribute to Gentoo?

drobbins is sometimes participating on the Gentoo devel mailing list the last years. And he contributed to openrc development. The main goodness and his idea of Fun(too) is: Mixing a stable compile toolchain with current~unstable software. This way a desktop user in need of actual versions doesn't get this often in trouble. And further there at Funtoo is much interest in crosscompiling.
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khayyam
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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ulenrich wrote:
First of all, I must admit and acknowledge it seems to be best practice for consistency sake and it is not unfriendly to move such posts to "unsupported Software".

ulenrich ... ok, good, and as this was the gist of your initial objection, you should probably have left it at that. However ...

ulenrich wrote:
But what bothers me people don't get it:
[...]
A distribution having many derivate distributions [....] is a growing and successful project. Not having such derivates signifies dead like exherbo. And becoming a derivate of its own fork this is a Mandriva special case.

I think your entirely confused here, gentoo doesn't have any "derivate [sic] distributions", you act like these are sub-projects or something, they are not, they are forks, and forks are for the most part *bad*. They duplicate resources, split communities, and more often than not have no obvious benefits for users. The fact that gentoo has been able to incorporate and include aspects of these splits (to some degree) is a credit, but it is not a sign of health that this happens. It might help to be clear here, personally I don't think something like sysrescuecd is a fork as such, but others are, and most of the reasons for their existence is so that they can vie for market share and mindspace. Sometimes splits occur due to obvious differences, personality clashes, etc, and perhaps sometimes they are unavoidable, but I would never say they are somehow a measure of success. This is something worth baring in mind in reference to the current intersection of 'legacy' (as 'systemd' like to call it) and all the requirements (or as I would call it breakage) introduced by the leap-forward into systemd.

ulenrich wrote:
When a project is forked in a way the child cannot give back upstream any more, like openoffice - libreoffice becomes a serious contender. But Funtoo and Sabayon have active maintainers giving back to Gentoo!

I don't see it working this way, there are often conflicts of interest, and there is also the question of what exactly this "gift" consists of. As I'm inclined to think your referencing a recent contribution I'll preempt you and state that I think Fabio Erculiani's "gift" is nothing more than serving his own interests, I also think the rational given is mindbogglingly contradicting because we are supposed to believe that this is for the benefit of users, who (if I am to be included as such) are just out of luck when it comes to being "future proof".

best ... khay
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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 7:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

khayyam,

Gentoo is very difficult to fork. Think about what Gentoo is. Its the portage package manager and the portage tree, everything else is $UPSTREAM.
Most derivative distros use both of the above and add their own overlay. Thats not really a fork.
The exception is probably Exherbo, which uses Plaudis as the package manager and exheres packages in place of ebuilds. Thats clearly a fork.
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aCOSwt
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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmmm :? Well... I'm confused... I mean.

Is'nt life too short ?
Far too short !

I mean... well... we get something as simple as :

Code:
fscanf(wherever,"%s",&question);
if(find_answer(&question,&answer)){
    fprintf(stdout,"%s",&answer);
    return(0);}
else{
    errno=EDOM;
    return(-1);}


Why would it be absolutely required to make things more complex, testing whatever condition about who is asking the question ?
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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NeddySeagoon wrote:
Think about what Gentoo is. Its the portage package manager and the portage tree, everything else is $UPSTREAM.


Hmmm... :? I am getting even more confused ! :?

So, starting from your definition, could you please explain consequently what does Gentoo-supported / Gentoo-unsupported actually mean ?
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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John R. Graham wrote:
Funtoo questions belong in Unsupported Software.

Hmmmm... Things are definitely going to be... confused :? (in my mind I mean)

I maintain a package.
This package is made available in both gentoo overlay and funtoo overlay.
I am not a member of the funtoo forum.

Do you mean that any funtoo user of the package I maintain should post his question in the unsupported section of the gentoo forums ? :? :?
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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 8:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And how do these questions fit into your, "Life is too short," theory? :wink:

(That's just a joke, of course. If someone else hasn't clarified further by this evening, I'll reply in more detail. Slammed at work right now.)

- John
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khayyam
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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NeddySeagoon wrote:
Gentoo is very difficult to fork. Think about what Gentoo is. Its the portage package manager and the portage tree, everything else is $UPSTREAM. Most derivative distros use both of the above and add their own overlay. Thats not really a fork. The exception is probably Exherbo, which uses Plaudis as the package manager and exheres packages in place of ebuilds. Thats clearly a fork.

NeddySeagoon ... ok, I'll agree that there are some vagary involved in the language, and that in some regards the basic nature of portage allows there to be variation, however gentoo isn't only the code, I also made reference to resources, community, etc, as part of the definition. We all piggy-back on the work of others, and 'fork' by our use of PORTDIR_OVERLAY, but we don't then claim to be something other than gentoo. In that regard we are not vying for market share and/or mindspace, we have a tentative agreement toward a common project. The distinction, I think, is that this isn't true for all cases, and this is what I mean by 'fork'. Anyhow, my basic claim was that these are not somehow a sign of health, they are in most regards detrimental to a common project.

best ... khay
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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John R. Graham wrote:
I'll reply in more detail.

Please don't!
Really!
My questions were not actually meant as questions.
Well, not questions I am personally looking for answers, I mean.
BTW, this should incidentally answer your question :
John R. Graham wrote:
And how do these questions fit into your, "Life is too short," theory?

(That's not a joke of course)
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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 9:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah, I see. Just couldn't resist, could you? :P

Besides, the answers to your questions are simple. Shouldn't take more than four of five thousand words to make them crystal clear.

- John
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