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wswartzendruber
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PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2013 12:40 am    Post subject: Oh No, Gun Homicides Have Gone Down! Reply with quote

Shit! This isn't supposed to happen... :x

The Huffington Post wrote:
The U.S. gun homicide rate has dropped sharply in the past 20 years, but few Americans are aware of the decline, according to a Pew poll released this week.

The rate of firearm homicide in 2010 was down 49 percent from its peak in 1993, according to Pew, while the rate of nonfatal violent crime involving guns was 75 percent lower in 2011 than in 1993. In both cases, the bulk of the decline took place during the 1990s.

A separate Department of Justice study, also released this week, showed similar figures, with firearm homicides dropping 39 percent, largely between 1993 and 1998.

Public perception hasn't kept pace. According to the Pew poll, 56 percent of Americans said gun crimes had increased in the past 20 years, while 26 percent thought the number had stayed the same, and just 12 percent said it had gone down.

Concern about fighting crime, however, is lower than in previous years. In a January Pew survey, conducted about a month after the shootings in Newtown, Conn., only 55 percent said crime reduction should be a top priority in Washington, down from 78 percent in 1994.

From Pew's report:
Researchers have studied the decline in firearm crime and violent crime for many years, and though there are theories to explain the decline, there is no consensus among those who study the issue as to why it happened.
There also is debate about the extent of gun ownership in the U.S., although no disagreement that the U.S. has more civilian firearms, both total and per capita, than other nations. Compared with other developed nations, the U.S. has a higher homicide rate and higher rates of gun ownership, but not higher rates for all other crimes.
According to Pew, 31,672 deaths from guns were reported in the U.S. in 2010, 60 percent of which were suicides.

The Pew report's data on homicides and deaths came from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, while the estimates of crime numbers came from the U.S. Census Bureau's National Crime Victimization Survey. The poll of Americans' impressions about crime was conducted between March 14 and 17, and surveyed 924 people using live telephone interviews.

The Fucking Article

PS: I'm getting real tired of the brain-dead anti-gun comments in this forum. If you say something stupid and I flame you, I'm sorry.
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PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2013 1:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stop trying to shout them down with hate, you astro-turf moran! You don't have any fact scyent reason! You Bee Tagger!
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PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2013 2:59 am    Post subject: Re: Oh No, Gun Homicides Have Gone Down! Reply with quote

wswartzendruber wrote:
I'm getting real tired of the brain-dead anti-gun comments in this forum. If you say something stupid and I flame you, I'm sorry.
:lol: :lol: :lol:
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PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2013 4:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Blind Pew again with his reports. Can I be a pirate too?
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PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2013 5:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Other sources give similar figures (down 70% over last two decades, with no correlation to gun control legislation, which has moved back and forth over the same period).

This lends credibility to the theory that Pac Man (to include Ms. Pac Man) may have been a salient factor.
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PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2013 10:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

and who doesn't know this?

So why all the fear and hysteria? Everyone here thinks you need a gun to protect yourself, but apparently you are pretty safe.
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Well, every group has its nutjobs, and the Second Amendment crowd is no exception.
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PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2013 11:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the anti-gun people here are a bit more concerned with the fact that the US still accounts for something along the lines of 1/4 - 1/3 of crimes that involve guns in the world.

Also, a more fun read on guns:

http://www.cracked.com/article_20396_5-mind-blowing-facts-nobody-told-you-about-guns.html
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wswartzendruber
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PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2013 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
and who doesn't know this?

Well apparently, 56% of the United States doesn't know this.

juniper wrote:
So why all the fear and hysteria? Everyone here thinks you need a gun to protect yourself, but apparently you are pretty safe.

See, this is what I mean when I talk about people saying stupid shit. Tell me, genius, were the unarmed people in New Orleans safe?
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PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2013 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
and who doesn't know this?

So why all the fear and hysteria? Everyone here thinks you need a gun to protect yourself, but apparently you are pretty safe.

The fear and hysteria is coming from the people who want gun control, not from the people who want to adhere to the Constitution. So let me ask you: why all the fear and hysteria?
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PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2013 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
juniper wrote:
and who doesn't know this?

So why all the fear and hysteria? Everyone here thinks you need a gun to protect yourself, but apparently you are pretty safe.

The fear and hysteria is coming from the people who want gun control, not from the people who want to adhere to the Constitution. So let me ask you: why all the fear and hysteria?


"from my cold dead hands" <----------------- not said by me.

I thought you have guns to 1) protect yourselves from the GUBEREMENT and 2) criminals and 3) fun. so why so many gun nuts?

I think i have decided to go to a shooting range. I want to see what all the rage is about.
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Well, every group has its nutjobs, and the Second Amendment crowd is no exception.
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PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2013 8:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mardok45 wrote:
I think the anti-gun people here are a bit more concerned with the fact that the US still accounts for something along the lines of 1/4 - 1/3 of crimes that involve guns in the world.

Also, a more fun read on guns:

http://www.cracked.com/article_20396_5-mind-blowing-facts-nobody-told-you-about-guns.html


i think there are a lot of testosterone fueled cowboy fantasies about a shootout with the govt/criminals.
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Well, every group has its nutjobs, and the Second Amendment crowd is no exception.
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Bones McCracker
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PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2013 8:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
BoneKracker wrote:
juniper wrote:
and who doesn't know this?

So why all the fear and hysteria? Everyone here thinks you need a gun to protect yourself, but apparently you are pretty safe.

The fear and hysteria is coming from the people who want gun control, not from the people who want to adhere to the Constitution. So let me ask you: why all the fear and hysteria?


"from my cold dead hands" <----------------- not said by me.

There is neither fear nor hysteria there. That's a simple statement that citizens of this country are ready and willing to fight to keep it free -- that's a 238 year old sentiment. It's not about fear; it's about lack of fear and understanding what is truly important and makes humans human. That's why we're still somewhat free (although it may be a losing battle), and you've long-since caved in to serious erosion of your cornerstone liberties -- the ones that guarantee democracy and human rights, such as freedom of speech, freedom of thought and belief, and the freedom to own, keep, and protect what is yours (and even got conned into doing it the name of good).

It's understandable that the continental European countries did so. After all, they have all been conquered recently, so their populace is only one generation removed from having had to give up their rights entirely and be wholly subjugated and treated like children. People who are treated like children for a long time act like children: "take care of me; tell me what to do; I'm helpless!" They as peoples are seriously pussified, and just barely beginning to show signs of getting over it (even the French, if not the Spanish who may be permanently that way).

But Britain and Canada have not been conquered lately. Maybe it's understandable in the case of Britain, who virtually bankrupted herself trying to cling to her ill-gotten empire, and then fighting two wars to keep mainland Europe Balkanized (and thereby avoid conquest of their little island).

But what the fuck is wrong with Canadians? I guess it just comes from being a perpetual strap-hanger, clinging to the skirts of the haughty English monarchy and the pants-leg of the dominant U.S.A. It's like being a wimpy kid at school; when you're a wimp, it's best not to have strong opinions or show any aggressive tendencies. That mentality pervades an entire culture. Maybe honor, dignity, and moral courage have been been pretty much bred out of the Canadian culture.

The fear-mongering and irrational hysteria is all coming from the left. "ZOMG teh gunz! Think of teh chilluns!" (in complete ignorance of what math and science have to say about it). Was there any of this running around like Chicken Little before this most recent shooting? No. It's only after these highly publicized incidents, when there's an opportunity for political gain. Depending on who you are, that's either irrational or immoral.

However, it too is understandable. It's because that's when the opportunistic politicians jump on it as an emotional issue to move the sheep herd in the direction they want. And, that's when sheep like you chime in with your echoes of "Baaa-a-a-aah, baa-a-a-ah, I hear and obey, take everything, I trust collectivism and authoritarianism completely, despite Europe having been reduced nearly to ashes by them, time and again, and most recently to the point of pathetic dependency on the good will of others. And, listen to me closely when I, from my pulpit of failure and weakness, with the lessons of history against me, tell you that you're doing it wrong. Baaa-a-a-aah!"

juniper wrote:
I think i have decided to go to a shooting range. I want to see what all the rage is about.

What "rage"? The "rage" is people like you belly-aching that it's necessary to violate the rights of respectable, upstanding citizens in order to address the symptoms of social problems you apparently think are not consequential. Nevertheless, I think you should have the experience, just in case you ever need it in order to keep yourself or your family from harm (which seems to happen to most Europeans just about the time few people are alive to remember that last round of socio-economic chaos, brutality, and authoritarian butchery (all in the name of good, of course).

Study up on it first, so you don't hurt yourself or somebody else.
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PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2013 9:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:

There is neither fear nor hysteria there. That's a simple statement that citizens of this country are ready and willing to fight to keep it free -- that's a 238 year old sentiment. It's not about fear; it's about lack of fear and understanding what is truly important and makes humans human. That's why we're still somewhat free (although it may be a losing battle), and you've long-since caved in to serious erosion of your cornerstone liberties -- the ones that guarantee democracy and human rights, such as freedom of speech, freedom of thought and belief, and the freedom to own, keep, and protect what is yours (and even got conned into doing it the name of good).


Freedom to use dope? Habeas corpus? etc etc.

Quote:

But what the fuck is wrong with Canadians? I guess it just comes from being a perpetual strap-hanger, clinging to the skirts of the haughty English monarchy and the pants-leg of the dominant U.S.A. It's like being a wimpy kid at school; when you're a wimp, it's best not to have strong opinions or show any aggressive tendencies. That mentality pervades an entire culture. Maybe honor, dignity, and moral courage have been been pretty much bred out of the Canadian culture.


Nah, just not violent. we don't get a hard on thinking about guns.

you are really grasping at straws there. There is no honour dignity or courage here. It's just a hard on for guns and violence in the name of defense, when it actually doesn't work. Given that americans have started huge aggressive wars lately, I wouldn't start talking about honour dignity or courage. one of the more impressive things we (canadian now) did was stay out of the stupid iraq war. I remember that in canada. There was intense pressure to join from your govt, but we didn't.

Quote:

However, it too is understandable. It's because that's when the opportunistic politicians jump on it as an emotional issue to move the sheep herd in the direction they want. And, that's when sheep like you chime in with your echoes of "Baaa-a-a-aah, baa-a-a-ah, I hear and obey, take everything, I trust collectivism and authoritarianism completely, despite Europe having been reduced nearly to ashes by them, time and again, and most recently to the point of pathetic dependency on the good will of others. And, listen to me closely when I, from my pulpit of failure and weakness, with the lessons of history against me, tell you that you're doing it wrong. Baaa-a-a-aah!"


keep dreaming of your revolution...
Quote:

juniper wrote:
I think i have decided to go to a shooting range. I want to see what all the rage is about.

What "rage"? The "rage" is people like you belly-aching that it's necessary to violate the rights of respectable, upstanding citizens in order to address the symptoms of social problems you apparently think are not consequential.[ Nevertheless, I think you should have the experience, just in case you ever need it in order to keep yourself or your family from harm (which seems to happen to most Europeans just about the time few people are alive to remember that last round of socio-economic chaos, brutality, and authoritarian butchery (all in the name of good, of course).


"rage" = fashion.

as mentioned a million times before, the social problems are huge. What are you guys doing about it? Oh nothing as well.

Clearly you don't have kids. Only a person with grey matter melted by years of cowboy movies thinks a gun fight is good for their kids.
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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 12:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I only skimmed what you're written and can only see strawman after strawman, and am not going to bother responding. Congratulations; you have become a strident, closed-minded, non-listening, irrational extremist, clearly unable to persuasively justify what he asks of others, yet still constantly attempting to force those views on others, like a bird beating its own brains out by repeatedly flying into the same glass window over and over again, Well done.

If you can't back it up, you might want to dwell on it a little more before whipping it out in public and having people look at you and just shake their heads. Unless you've just resorted to trolling, that is, in which case people will rapidly start to just ignore you anyway.
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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 12:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
Mardok45 wrote:
I think the anti-gun people here are a bit more concerned with the fact that the US still accounts for something along the lines of 1/4 - 1/3 of crimes that involve guns in the world.

Also, a more fun read on guns:

http://www.cracked.com/article_20396_5-mind-blowing-facts-nobody-told-you-about-guns.html


i think there are a lot of testosterone fueled cowboy fantasies about a shootout with the govt/criminals.


I think there are a lot of estrogen fueled authoritarian fantasies about taking away anything potentially dangerous from men.
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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 2:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
I think i have decided to go to a shooting range. I want to see what all the rage is about.
Just keep in mind that some of the activities you find enjoyable, others don't.
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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Muso wrote:

I think there are a lot of estrogen fueled authoritarian fantasies about taking away anything potentially dangerous from men.


Guns have moved from potentially to actually dangerous long ago.
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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
Muso wrote:

I think there are a lot of estrogen fueled authoritarian fantasies about taking away anything potentially dangerous from men.


Guns have moved from potentially to actually dangerous long ago.


So have sidewalks. They are too hard, we need to cover them all in foam padding.
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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Muso wrote:
juniper wrote:
Muso wrote:

I think there are a lot of estrogen fueled authoritarian fantasies about taking away anything potentially dangerous from men.


Guns have moved from potentially to actually dangerous long ago.


So have sidewalks. They are too hard, we need to cover them all in foam padding.


i missed the article which says sidewalks are were used by a person to murder another 11,000 times. but hey, i don't read the news everyday.
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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How many people have slipped on sidewalks, hit their head, and died? It's a lot more common than you'd think. But why focus just on gun as a murder weapon when hammers, knives, and baseball bats are used even more frequently. We had better ban all of those too. And some people choke on food that hasn't been chewed enough, so we'd better make all food pre-chewed, you know... for the kids.
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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Muso wrote:
How many people have slipped on sidewalks, hit their head, and died? It's a lot more common than you'd think. But why focus just on gun as a murder weapon when hammers, knives, and baseball bats are used even more frequently. We had better ban all of those too. And some people choke on food that hasn't been chewed enough, so we'd better make all food pre-chewed, you know... for the kids.


now you are just making stuff up. 70% of murders in your country are committed with firearms.

murders committed with sidewalks: 0

you do understand the difference between murder and accidental death, don't you?
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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Captain America wrote:
We aren't completely nuts anymore, really! :cry:
LOL USA
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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 10:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
Muso wrote:
How many people have slipped on sidewalks, hit their head, and died? It's a lot more common than you'd think. But why focus just on gun as a murder weapon when hammers, knives, and baseball bats are used even more frequently. We had better ban all of those too. And some people choke on food that hasn't been chewed enough, so we'd better make all food pre-chewed, you know... for the kids.


now you are just making stuff up. 70% of murders in your country are committed with firearms.

murders committed with sidewalks: 0

you do understand the difference between murder and accidental death, don't you?


No, captain strawman, I never claimed that people were murdered via sidewalks. I pointed out how sidewalks can pose a danger. Same thing with food.

Where I did mention murder I was specific to guns, knives, hammers and baseball bats.
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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 10:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Muso wrote:
juniper wrote:
Muso wrote:
How many people have slipped on sidewalks, hit their head, and died? It's a lot more common than you'd think. But why focus just on gun as a murder weapon when hammers, knives, and baseball bats are used even more frequently. We had better ban all of those too. And some people choke on food that hasn't been chewed enough, so we'd better make all food pre-chewed, you know... for the kids.


now you are just making stuff up. 70% of murders in your country are committed with firearms.

murders committed with sidewalks: 0

you do understand the difference between murder and accidental death, don't you?


No, captain strawman, I never claimed that people were murdered via sidewalks. I pointed out how sidewalks can pose a danger. Same thing with food.

Where I did mention murder I was specific to guns, knives, hammers and baseball bats.


and I was pointing out that danger isn't the issue. for one thing, they aren't that dangerous. accidents happen, and if someone smacks their head against the ground it will hurt. the fact that you are distinguishing between intentional homicide and accidents (and very few in number at that. I know sidewalks are rarely used in your country but they are well used here and they cause few deaths).

and hammers, knives and bats account for many less murders.
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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 10:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Correlation is not causation. One tool might be preferable to another for something, but no tool creates the reason to use it.

60% of firearm-related homicides in the U.S. are suicides, but firearms do not make people kill themselves or each other; all they are doing is making them less painful.

It might be a reasonable hypothesis that fewer attempts to kill one's self or somebody else would succeed if there were no firearms, but I say the difference is a small price for a society to pay for not being turned into a helpless herd of livestock by the state. Furthermore, social, economic, and cultural factors and -- not laws -- are what determine both how many such attempts there will be and the extent to which firearms are available.

Laws that effectively prevent criminals and the insane from having firearms are good. Laws that prevent law-abiding and constructive people from having firearms are bad. And, the goodness or badness is a function of the number of people impacted. We need to stop trying to make guns "non-available" and start trying to get them out of unregulated circulation, and we need to do so in a way that is as decentralized as feasible.
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