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Old School
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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 12:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgruff wrote:
Old School wrote:
It was not until Martin violently confronted Zimmerman, and in obvious self defense, Zimmerman, as a last resort, pulled his weapon and saved his own life.

And if Zimmerman is lying, how do you explain his injuries? Self inflicted?


I'm getting tired of all the bullshit. If you seriously think any of the smokescreen created by mendacious bigots writing for right-wing news outlets is true, take the bet. Time to put up or shut up.

SFU. You have no moral authority to tell me to do anything. You are nothing more than a bigoted partisan tool.
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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 1:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Uh-huh. So blinded by bigotry that I crushed you in our bet about the election result, remember? The one where the right got lost in their own insanity field.

Go on. If you really believe all that crap about Trayvon Martin, how can you lose?

If you really believe it, that is.
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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 5:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgruff wrote:
energyman76b wrote:
there is nothing about the things above that can be disputed, nothing. And it all points to a case of civil courage leading to a case of self defense.


Lol.

There is nothing to substantiate Zimmerman's claims that Martin was acting suspiciously or that Trayvon initiated a confrontation and physically attacked him. That's a fact.

"Black guys" aren't automatically suspect criminals. Wearing hoodies is not evidence of criminal intent.

No clear facts emerge from the conflicting witness accounts.

Zimmerman did not have severe head injuries. If you rushed into an A&E department with a bash on the nose and scratches on the back of your head shouting: "help! I have severe head injuries!" you'd be met with gales of laughter from the staff.

energyman76b wrote:
Juniper, mcgruff - what happened to 'innocent until proven guilty'? Does that not stand if the victim is black and the accused one is not?


But there is proof; you're just ignoring it.


a) you have not seen the pics of Zimmerman
b) yes, of course, a short, fat, asthmatic hispanic is looking for physical alterations with a bigger, younger, athletic guy. Are drugs mandatory where you live?

There is nothing to support any other story than Zimmerman's. You can squirm as much as you want. There aren't any real witnesses disproven Zimmerman, Zimmerman is the one injured. People saw Zimmerman on the ground being beaten up 'MMA style'.

So, now, without pulling things out of your ass (I know, a hard one), please prove that Zimmerman is guilty of manslaughter. Don't forget YOU have to prove he is guilty. Not the other way round.
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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

energyman76b wrote:
a) you have not seen the pics of Zimmerman


I have. He does not have serious injuries just minor scratches to the back of the head (which didn't even require stitching) and a bash on the nose. He got a tame doctor to claim he had some kind of hairline fracture - allowing pro-gun supporters to say he had a broken nose - but that hasn't been verified.

energyman76b wrote:
b) yes, of course, a short, fat, asthmatic hispanic is looking for physical alterations with a bigger, younger, athletic guy. Are drugs mandatory where you live?


In fact, they are almost the same height. Weight is extremely important in a fight but Martin had a gracile build. If there was a scuffle in which Martin at one point got on top, he could not have kept Zimmerman pinned down. It's not physically possible. Zimmerman didn't need to reach for a gun: he just needed to push him off.

energyman76b wrote:
There is nothing to support any other story than Zimmerman's. You can squirm as much as you want. There aren't any real witnesses disproven Zimmerman, Zimmerman is the one injured. People saw Zimmerman on the ground being beaten up 'MMA style'.


Witness reports are conflicting and incomplete and do not provide a clear picture of events.

Zimmerman cannot prove his story (surely you can see that he would have tried for the waiver if that was not the case?). His only chance is a good performance in the witness box which could convince the jury that he's telling the truth.

However, the prosecution will show that Zimmerman, not Martin, is the "dodgy" character because of a variety of slippery behaviours following the shooting (what about the funding affair?) and this will seriously affect his credibility. The prosecution can very convincingly show that Zimmerman's excessive zeal and poor judgement provoked a confrontation. They don't need witness evidence of the clash itself to do this; Zimmerman's behaviour immediately beforehand will be sufficient (for example, he refused to follow a clear instruction from the police). The prosecution will also demand that Zimmerman be held culpable for the fatal outcome of the confrontation because he failed to follow neighbourhood watch guidelines about not carrying a gun. They will also point out that his claim of being subjected to a life-threatening attack is not supported by any injuries he sustained or by the physical capabilities of the two combatants.

Martin has no criminal record and the idea that he is a drug-dealer, burglar and gangland thug is a hysterical invention which will not be allowed to influence the deliberations of a jury.

The case has such a high profile not because of race but because of guns. Allegations of reverse racism, and the multitude of bigoted, right-wing voices making outlandish claims, are a smokescreen to cover up the fact that this case is all about the terrible harm caused by the right to carry guns. Whether Zimmerman acted in fear or in anger, we see a weak character with a gun which enabled him to turn a moment of hysteria into murder.
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energyman76b
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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

no, the witnesses are not conflicting. They are either supporting Zimmerman or say that one man sat on another beating him.

The only 'conflicting' 'witnesses' are two women who didn't see shit.


Next, you are still failing the 'until proven guilty' test. You can not prove that Zimmerman's story is false. So, from a pure legal and philosophical point of view he is innocent.

The hate campaign against Zimmerman, started by black 'leaders' and Treyvon's family doesn't change anything. In fact all it does is showing the pro-black racism.

So, please come back when you have something to falsify Zimmerman's account. Until then you should stop embarrassing yourself.
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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 12:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Indeed, Zimmerman does not have to prove his story at all.
The goverment must prove that a man who called the police about a suspicious stranger in his neighborhood was looking to kill a minority, but was stupid enough to call the police first rather than after.
In the early days of the Demarquise Elkins crime, his supporters were saying similar things as Martin's supporters claim.

But it is a sort of conspiracy theory and denial of evidence to think Martin was a victim.
Martin eluded surveillance, and came back to Zimmerman.
Painting him as anything but an agressor at that point is delusional.


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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 4:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Re: the pics. I'm not sure what relevance the severity of the injuries have for the case, but I think they support Zimmerman's claim that Martin had him pinned on the ground and in a position where Martin had free access to wailing away at his head. Abrasions to the back of the head suggest that his head was being slammed against the pavement. I think the question is "Would a reasonable person think that Martin posed a risk to his life in this position?" Certainly people have died from lesser injuries. I think that if the pavement was being used as a weapon it lends credence to Zimmerman's claim that his life was in imminent danger, though maybe those abrasions from the blows to his face pushing his occipital into the pavement or maybe the impact from the fall from when Martin took him down.

mcgruff wrote:
In fact, they are almost the same height. Weight is extremely important in a fight but Martin had a gracile build. If there was a scuffle in which Martin at one point got on top, he could not have kept Zimmerman pinned down. It's not physically possible. Zimmerman didn't need to reach for a gun: he just needed to push him off.


I'm not sure you know how that works. A well applied 'mount' is actually very difficult to break out of, even for someone who is larger than his opponent. A fat man would not be able to leverage his inertia in this position. The mount position also allows the freedom of hands free control of your opponent and great access to his head.

Clearly Martin was no weenie as he was able to take down Zimmerman from standing where Zimmerman would have had the perceptible weight advantage you spoke of.

Have you ever done any martial training? What's your frame of reference?

mcgruff wrote:
Zimmerman cannot prove his story (surely you can see that he would have tried for the waiver if that was not the case?). His only chance is a good performance in the witness box which could convince the jury that he's telling the truth.


Suppose the defense thought that they would not have enough evidence to prove self-defense outright in a waiver hearing and wanted to be able to use that evidence in a regular trial where they felt Zimmerman might have an edge without the self-defense argument having been discredited in previous precedings. They would have done what you said if they thought it was a slam-dunk, but then and only then. Everything I've read indicates that the defense is likely to bring this evidence up at trial. I doubt he even stands as a witness, not enough to bet on it, but I doubt it.

mcgruff wrote:
The prosecution can very convincingly show that Zimmerman's excessive zeal and poor judgement provoked a confrontation. They don't need witness evidence of the clash itself to do this; Zimmerman's behaviour immediately beforehand will be sufficient (for example, he refused to follow a clear instruction from the police).


I've heard a few accounts of this. It certainly sounds like Zimmerman was stalking Martin, and at that point, Martin could reasonably thought of Zimmerman as a threat. Did Zimmerman close the distance? If he did and Martin felt trapped, then I think he had reasonable cause to beat the ever living snot out of Zimmerman. Or did Martin circle around and attack him? The one where Martin circled around and attacked is the account I've read. If that's the case, the Martin probably had better options, like leaving.

mcgruff wrote:
The prosecution will also demand that Zimmerman be held culpable for the fatal outcome of the confrontation because he failed to follow neighbourhood watch guidelines about not carrying a gun. They will also point out that his claim of being subjected to a life-threatening attack is not supported by any injuries he sustained or by the physical capabilities of the two combatants.


Certainly future applications of neighborhood watch should review this case and have a more firm policy on armed watchmen.

Generally, you aren't breaching anything by not following guidelines, though. He should have followed them; he should not have stalked Martin; he should have followed the dispatcher's advice. People think they know better and they do what they think is best in high stress situations. I keep getting the impression that you think he was being ordered to do something by the police dispatcher and that he was somehow required to follow those orders. I am pretty sure he wasn't required to follow those orders, and unless the Neighborhood Watch program had written policy (not guideline) on that, I am absolutely sure he wasn't required to follow those orders.

mcgruff wrote:
Martin has no criminal record and the idea that he is a drug-dealer, burglar and gangland thug is a hysterical invention which will not be allowed to influence the deliberations of a jury.


I hope not. This case has nothing to do with whether or not Martin was a bad person, vigilantism is contrary to rule of law and simply being a bad person is not cause for Zimmerman to have shot him.

mcgruff wrote:
The case has such a high profile not because of race but because of guns. Allegations of reverse racism, and the multitude of bigoted, right-wing voices making outlandish claims, are a smokescreen to cover up the fact that this case is all about the terrible harm caused by the right to carry guns. Whether Zimmerman acted in fear or in anger, we see a weak character with a gun which enabled him to turn a moment of hysteria into murder.


"Trayvon's crime was WWB in a GC - Walking while black in a gated community." I don't know how many times I heard that line echoed on NPR.

"Trayvon was shot because he was black and wearing a hoodie." I heard that a lot, too.

These aren't people I'd call Right Wing voices. Right wing voices at the time recognized immediately that this was a gun control issue. A few weeks later, it became apparent that I was supposed to think that siding with Zimmerman was racist. The result is jokes like "If you're not with us, you're a racist." We could have had a meaningful debate on the topic, but instead Left wing voices ranted about how Right wingers only wanted guns to protect themselves from the onslaught of black men wearing hoodies.
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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 7:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Crimedog is such an insufferable know-it-all. He is all to prone to play the "your stupid" card when anybody gives evidence that contradicts what he proclaims is true. :roll:
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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you really think that, take the bet. I am confident that the facts - not the pro-gun fact-filtering and invention - the facts show Zimmerman to be a weak character who created a confrontation out of nothing and then killed in a moment of fear or anger.
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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgruff wrote:
If you really think that, take the bet. I am confident that the facts - not the pro-gun fact-filtering and invention - the facts show Zimmerman to be a weak character who created a confrontation out of nothing and then killed in a moment of fear or anger.


and killing out of fear while being attacked is:

covered by self defense.

wow, you are losing against yourself right now.
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Libertardian denial of reality is wholly unimpressive and unconvincing, and simply serves to demonstrate what a bunch of delusional fools they all are.

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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 8:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
You still here? Okay, I'll take that bet: if Zimmerman is convicted of what he's been charged with (2nd degree murder of Trayvon Martin), I will give up this avatar and never use it or another of Captain Sir Richard Burton again. If he is not, you will give up your avatar and never use it or another of Mr. Colbert again. Are we agreed?
I'll take your bet on the same terms that BK offered you and you will regret it. Plea bargains do not count.

All the defence has to provide is "reasonable doubt" and nothing more for Zimmerman to win.
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PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 5:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Isn't it strange that basically everyone involved in this discussion thinks that the facts support a position that aligns with their political views? Even though what actually is basically unknowable?

Doesn't the implication that nobody here is capable of assessing facts without being biased by their political leanings scare you?

Rather than debate a case in which nobody knows what happened, wouldn't it be more productive to analyze our own ability to think rationally? Or is that just no fun, since it doesn't give us the opportunity to call someone else an idiot?

And why is it that we enjoy calling other people idiots so much? Is there some evolutionary advantage to enjoying it? Or are we a self-selected group that voluntarily comes here because we enjoy it?

Just asking.
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PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 5:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Apparently you don't get the whole "betting" thing. Did you know which horse was going to win the Kentucky Derby? It's a test of your insight versus that of others, but the uncertainty is what makes a bet entertaining. That's why there is a huge market for betting on sporting events and no market for betting on proper spellings.
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PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 11:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

richk449 wrote:
Isn't it strange that basically everyone involved in this discussion thinks that the facts support a position that aligns with their political views? Even though what actually is basically unknowable?

Doesn't the implication that nobody here is capable of assessing facts without being biased by their political leanings scare you?

Rather than debate a case in which nobody knows what happened, wouldn't it be more productive to analyze our own ability to think rationally? Or is that just no fun, since it doesn't give us the opportunity to call someone else an idiot?

And why is it that we enjoy calling other people idiots so much? Is there some evolutionary advantage to enjoying it? Or are we a self-selected group that voluntarily comes here because we enjoy it?

Just asking.


I think zimmerman will win and I am a pinko commie liberal.
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PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 11:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zimmerman sounds like a superhero who uses a mobility aid.
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PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

richk449 wrote:
Isn't it strange that basically everyone involved in this discussion thinks that the facts support a position that aligns with their political views? Even though what actually is basically unknowable?

Doesn't the implication that nobody here is capable of assessing facts without being biased by their political leanings scare you?

Rather than debate a case in which nobody knows what happened, wouldn't it be more productive to analyze our own ability to think rationally? Or is that just no fun, since it doesn't give us the opportunity to call someone else an idiot?

And why is it that we enjoy calling other people idiots so much? Is there some evolutionary advantage to enjoying it? Or are we a self-selected group that voluntarily comes here because we enjoy it?

Just asking.


you should rethink that. See: me
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AidanJT wrote:

Libertardian denial of reality is wholly unimpressive and unconvincing, and simply serves to demonstrate what a bunch of delusional fools they all are.

Satan's got perfectly toned abs and rocks a c-cup.
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PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 11:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sikpuppy wrote:
Zimmerman sounds like a superhero who uses a mobility aid.

:lol:

It's a bird! It's a plane! It's... Hapless Man!
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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 5:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looks like the crimedog has bugged out...only if we could be so lucky. 8O
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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 5:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't want him to bug out. I want to deprogram him. It may be too much of a challenge, though. He has close to negative Quatloos of neural plasticity. I may have to resort to in-vitro closed-loop intracortical microstimulation feedback (i.e. the мозг в банке technique pioneered by Soviet scientists).
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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 6:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
sikpuppy wrote:
Zimmerman sounds like a superhero who uses a mobility aid.

:lol:

It's a bird! It's a plane! It's... Hapless Man!

Oppa WTF style?
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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgruff wrote:
If you really think that, take the bet. I am confident that the facts - not the pro-gun fact-filtering and invention - the facts show Zimmerman to be a weak character who created a confrontation out of nothing and then killed in a moment of fear or anger.


If Zimmerman created the confrontation, then how did this happen, since the complete 911 call indicates Zimmerman "lost" Martin."
How did he confront someone who eluded his surveillance?
The 911 audio demonstrated Zimmerman was waiting for the police to arrive, and in under 2 minutes of ending a conversation with police dispatch, Martin re-appeared, and purportedly confronted Zimmerman.
How do you make Zimmerman out to be the agressor given those facts?
He is the guy who called the cops and waited.
Martin is the guy who apparently decided to go back to confront someone keeping an eye on him.
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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
sikpuppy wrote:
Zimmerman sounds like a superhero who uses a mobility aid.

:lol:

It's a bird! It's a plane! It's... Hapless Man!


my favorite superhero is AntiStupidSienceman.
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AidanJT wrote:

Libertardian denial of reality is wholly unimpressive and unconvincing, and simply serves to demonstrate what a bunch of delusional fools they all are.

Satan's got perfectly toned abs and rocks a c-cup.
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PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 5:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The truth is inadmissable.

The prosecution doesn't want any mention in the courtroom of Trayvon Martin's history of violent behavior, or even the photos that were on Trayvon Martin's cell phone (photos that reveal a gang-banger lifestyle involving drugs, guns, etc.). So far, the judge is agreeing.

http://gma.yahoo.com/trayvon-martin-drug-photos-cant-163551201.html
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PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The defense's blatant attempt at character assassination is being blocked? Imagine that.

A trial is supposed to consider facts and evidence.
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PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

that T.M. was a violent thug and not the innocent child the media portrait him is not a fact?
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AidanJT wrote:

Libertardian denial of reality is wholly unimpressive and unconvincing, and simply serves to demonstrate what a bunch of delusional fools they all are.

Satan's got perfectly toned abs and rocks a c-cup.
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