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McGruff
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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 4:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

warrens wrote:
There is NO burden of proof on Zimmerman!!! He does not have to proof anything at all. The burden of proof rest with the prosecution.


Jesus you guys are dumb. I just explained the legal position. If Zimmerman can't prove his story (and he can't) the prosecution have all the evidence they require. They don't need to go into the details of the confrontation. An innocent kid got shot on his way back from a local shop by an asshole vigilante and so asshole vigilante had better have a damn good reason else he's going to jail.

That means proof which stands up in court and not just in the right-wing insanity field where any old crap goes so long as it furthers their agenda, even at the expense of human lives. For example, in the real world a screwdriver is just a screwdriver not a "burglary tool" and jewelry doesn't magically become stolen jewelry just because you want it to be. It's a bit like science, and the scientific fact here is that Trayvon Martin has never been charged or convicted of any offence of burglary.

The trial will expose all that crap.
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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 5:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgruff wrote:
Old School wrote:
If I remember right, the coroner's report listed him at 5'11".


So that should have read: "he was returning to his vehicle when he was confronted and attacked by a person marginally taller than himself".

And what about weight (which is what really matters)...?


what about the fact that Treyvon was an athlete while Zimmerman is an overweight asthmatic?
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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 5:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgruff wrote:
warrens wrote:
There is NO burden of proof on Zimmerman!!! He does not have to proof anything at all. The burden of proof rest with the prosecution.


Jesus you guys are dumb. I just explained the legal position. If Zimmerman can't prove his story (and he can't) the prosecution have all the evidence they require. They don't need to go into the details of the confrontation. An innocent kid got shot on his way back from a local shop by an asshole vigilante and so asshole vigilante had better have a damn good reason else he's going to jail.

That means proof which stands up in court and not just in the right-wing insanity field where any old crap goes so long as it furthers their agenda, even at the expense of human lives. For example, in the real world a screwdriver is just a screwdriver not a "burglary tool" and jewelry doesn't magically become stolen jewelry just because you want it to be. It's a bit like science, and the scientific fact here is that Trayvon Martin has never been charged or convicted of any offence of burglary.

The trial will expose all that crap.


A man is innocent until his guilt is proven in front of a court.

That is THE LAW. Everything is based on that. So yes, the burden of proof is NOT on Zimmerman. He has a story that is supported by facts. The prosecution has a media hate campaign.

That's it.

Treyvon could have walked back straight to his father's house. Or he could have let a normal conversation with Zimmerman. He did neither (as the telephone call he did showed. He confronted him in typical agressive manner).

It is NOT about Treyvon's rap sheet (which is, mostly, clean), but about his stupid behaviour.
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Libertardian denial of reality is wholly unimpressive and unconvincing, and simply serves to demonstrate what a bunch of delusional fools they all are.

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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 5:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Old School wrote:
mcgruff wrote:
Old School wrote:
A screwdriver


And what do you think the court would make of that?

Let me tell you. They'll think it's a screwdriver. Not a "burglary tool". Or a kitten impaler. Or a drugs prong. Or a guilt stick. Just a screwdriver.

Then the judge would butt in and tell the defence to cut the crap and get on with their case. The jury would be instructed to disregard the comments because Martin has never been convicted - or even charged - with burglary or any similar crime.

A screwdriver is not evidence. It's bullshit.

Along with stolen women's jewelry.

Maybe, like you, Martin was a cross dresser.


So - he was really a GIRL?

Those assholes!
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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 9:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Old School wrote:
juniper wrote:
Old School wrote:
Go to the wiki article on Trayvon Martin.


can't find it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Trayvon_Martin_Shooting_Call1.ogg


I don't get it. he called and said there was a suspicious male walking around his neighbourhood and after a while the male ran off. I would too if some guy in a car was stalking me.

So, apparently martin must have attacked him after the call? I don't get what that shows other than there was a guy in the neighbourhood.
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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 9:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, some scumbag kid (according to his own record) starts beating the shit out of a concerned citizen... and you lot defend the scumbag?
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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Muso wrote:
So, some scumbag kid (according to his own record) starts beating the shit out of a concerned citizen... and you lot defend the scumbag?


so your version is that zimmerman was minding his own business and martin jumped out of the woods?

did zimmerman have access to his records? Did zimmerman know martin had a slightly checkered past? There is nothing as bad as killing someone on his record.
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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Muso wrote:
So, some scumbag kid (according to his own record) starts beating the shit out of a concerned citizen... and you lot defend the scumbag?


Imagine for a moment that you are in a court of law not bloviating on the internet. Do you think the judge would allow you to refer to Trayvon Martin as a "scumbag kid"? Do you understand why?
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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
Muso wrote:
So, some scumbag kid (according to his own record) starts beating the shit out of a concerned citizen... and you lot defend the scumbag?


so your version is that zimmerman was minding his own business and martin jumped out of the woods?

did zimmerman have access to his records? Did zimmerman know martin had a slightly checkered past? There is nothing as bad as killing someone on his record.


does it matter? No.

All that matters are the facts:

black guys wearing hoodies have been caught burglarizing homes (Zimmerman even helped in one case).
The neighbourhood still had a problem with criminal activity.
Treyvon was a black, athletic guy, wearing a hoodie, looking into homes while walking around.
Zimmerman followed him, lost him, went back to his car, went off again and was confronted by Treyvon.
Treyvon was seen by several witnesses sitting on Zimmerman, beating him.
Zimmerman had dirt and gras stains on his back and severe head injuries.

there is nothing about the things above that can be disputed, nothing. And it all points to a case of civil courage leading to a case of self defense.

Now come the interesting parts:
one minor witness said Treyvon was hitting Zimmerman - but after the hate campaign went in full attack mode his mother(!) forced him to retract his statement.
two women who did not see a thing claim that Zimmerman is lying.

Now tell me: what is more racist and/or wrong? shooting someone in self defense or lying to the police because the poor dead guy was a nice black kid and the other guy some fat hispanic?

And what is more disgusting: looking at the facts and wait for the trial before rubber stamping him a murderer or just proclaiming that all those facts are lies and he must be guilty?

Juniper, mcgruff - what happened to 'innocent until proven guilty'? Does that not stand if the victim is black and the accused one is not?

You are acting like racists.
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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgruff wrote:
Muso wrote:
So, some scumbag kid (according to his own record) starts beating the shit out of a concerned citizen... and you lot defend the scumbag?


Imagine for a moment that you are in a court of law not bloviating on the internet. Do you think the judge would allow you to refer to Trayvon Martin as a "scumbag kid"? Do you understand why?

You are such a tool.

Go back and see some of the things you called Zimmerman.

Pot....Kettle....Tool. :lol: :lol: :lol:
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McGruff
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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

energyman76b wrote:
there is nothing about the things above that can be disputed, nothing. And it all points to a case of civil courage leading to a case of self defense.


Lol.

There is nothing to substantiate Zimmerman's claims that Martin was acting suspiciously or that Trayvon initiated a confrontation and physically attacked him. That's a fact.

"Black guys" aren't automatically suspect criminals. Wearing hoodies is not evidence of criminal intent.

No clear facts emerge from the conflicting witness accounts.

Zimmerman did not have severe head injuries. If you rushed into an A&E department with a bash on the nose and scratches on the back of your head shouting: "help! I have severe head injuries!" you'd be met with gales of laughter from the staff.

energyman76b wrote:
Juniper, mcgruff - what happened to 'innocent until proven guilty'? Does that not stand if the victim is black and the accused one is not?


But there is proof; you're just ignoring it.
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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

energyman76b wrote:

All that matters are the facts:

black guys wearing hoodies have been caught burglarizing homes (Zimmerman even helped in one case).
The neighbourhood still had a problem with criminal activity.
Treyvon was a black, athletic guy, wearing a hoodie, looking into homes while walking around.
Zimmerman followed him, lost him, went back to his car, went off again and was confronted by Treyvon.
Treyvon was seen by several witnesses sitting on Zimmerman, beating him.
Zimmerman had dirt and gras stains on his back and severe head injuries.


there is nothing about the things above that can be disputed, nothing. And it all points to a case of civil courage leading to a case of self defense.

1) Martin has nothing to do about other black guys wearing hoodies. Point 1 is irrelevant.
2) Fine. Nothing to do with Martin.
3) Yup. He's black and was wearing a hoodie. Neither are crimes.
4) ENTIRELY DISPUTABLE (and this is what everything rests on). There are only two witnesses as to whether this is true. When is the defendant and one is dead.
5) Fine.
6) Fine.

So, the major sticking point is the main point above.

I am not claiming he is legally guilty, I am just claiming this stinks.

And what is more disgusting: looking at the facts and wait for the trial before rubber stamping him a murderer or just proclaiming that all those facts are lies and he must be guilty?

Quote:

Juniper, mcgruff - what happened to 'innocent until proven guilty'? Does that not stand if the victim is black and the accused one is not?

You are acting like racists.


I think he will get away with this. Legally, he is innocent until proven guilty. Now, as far as I can tell, if you kill someone, like Zimmerman did, and he puts forth a self defense argument, then all he needs to create is reasonable doubt on the prosecutions claim that he was not defending himself. Given that people saw Martin on Zimmerman, that will likely be hard.

It still stinks though. This is what happens when yahoos walk around with guns. No crime was prevented, just a dead teen.

As I have stated, it's american law and culture that's at fault. here are some critical remarks about stand your ground from wikipedia (i know zimmerman is not using this defense).

Stand-your-ground laws are frequently criticized and called "shoot first" laws by critics, including the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence.[25] In Florida, the law has resulted in self-defense claims tripling.[25][26] The law's critics argue that Florida's law makes it very difficult to prosecute cases against people who shoot others and then claim self-defense. The shooter can argue that they felt threatened, and in most cases, the only witness who could have argued otherwise is the victim who was shot and killed.[25] Before passage of the law, Miami police chief John F. Timoney called the law unnecessary and dangerous in that "[w]hether it's trick-or-treaters or kids playing in the yard of someone who doesn't want them there or some drunk guy stumbling into the wrong house, you're encouraging people to possibly use deadly physical force where it shouldn't be used."

familiar?


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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@ juniper: While nothing to do with what turned out, how do you know Martin was not involved in the other robberies. After all, he was checking out the houses.
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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Old School wrote:
@ juniper: While nothing to do with what turned out, how do you know Martin was not involved in the other robberies. After all, he was checking out the houses.


I don't know that, but more importantly neither did the guy who killed him. Why isn't Martin guilty until proven innocent? All zimmerman knew about this kid is that he was black with a hoodie, and walking in the neighbourhood looking at houses.
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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Old School wrote:
@ juniper: While nothing to do with what turned out, how do you know Martin was not involved in the other robberies. After all, he was checking out the houses.


How do we know you and Zimmerman didn't do it, working as a team?
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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 9:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgruff wrote:
Old School wrote:
@ juniper: While nothing to do with what turned out, how do you know Martin was not involved in the other robberies. After all, he was checking out the houses.


How do we know you and Zimmerman didn't do it, working as a team?

Shhhh!
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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
No crime was prevented, just a dead teen.

Tell that to George Zimmerman as he was getting his head smacked against the sidewalk. How many more blows would it have taken to kill him?

And Martin should get a Darwin award for attacking an armed man. :lol:
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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 9:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Old School wrote:
juniper wrote:
No crime was prevented, just a dead teen.

Tell that to George Zimmerman as he was getting his head smacked against the sidewalk. How many more blows would it have taken to kill him?

And Martin should get a Darwin award for attacking an armed man. :lol:


If we give zimmerman the benefit of the doubt, yeah. However, as I said, it never should have gotten to that point in the first place. Shoot first, evidence later isn't how I want society to be run.

And that smiley face isn't warranted. Worse, if zimmerman is lying, some serious miscarriage of justice is going to occur. that's what happens when you kill the only true witness.
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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 9:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
Old School wrote:
juniper wrote:
No crime was prevented, just a dead teen.

Tell that to George Zimmerman as he was getting his head smacked against the sidewalk. How many more blows would it have taken to kill him?

And Martin should get a Darwin award for attacking an armed man. :lol:


If we give zimmerman the benefit of the doubt, yeah. However, as I said, it never should have gotten to that point in the first place. Shoot first, evidence later isn't how I want society to be run.

And that smiley face isn't warranted. Worse, if zimmerman is lying, some serious miscarriage of justice is going to occur. that's what happens when you kill the only true witness.

My point is Martin had no idea Zimmerman was armed. It was not until Martin violently confronted Zimmerman, and in obvious self defense, Zimmerman, as a last resort, pulled his weapon and saved his own life.

And if Zimmerman is lying, how do you explain his injuries? Self inflicted?
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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 9:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Old School wrote:

My point is Martin had no idea Zimmerman was armed. It was not until Martin violently confronted Zimmerman, and in obvious self defense, Zimmerman, as a last resort, pulled his weapon and saved his own life.

And if Zimmerman is lying, how do you explain his injuries? Self inflicted?


The dubious part is that he turned around and then was attacked by martin. It's possible that zimmerman attacked martin, martin got the upper hand and then get shot.

We will never know. Sad isn't it?
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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 10:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
Old School wrote:

My point is Martin had no idea Zimmerman was armed. It was not until Martin violently confronted Zimmerman, and in obvious self defense, Zimmerman, as a last resort, pulled his weapon and saved his own life.

And if Zimmerman is lying, how do you explain his injuries? Self inflicted?


The dubious part is that he turned around and then was attacked by martin. It's possible that zimmerman attacked martin, martin got the upper hand and then get shot.

We will never know. Sad isn't it?

Nope, that is not what happened, and is corroborated by the girlfriend's phone call. Martin went out of his way to attack Zimmerman.

Dude, that is already in the public record.
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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 10:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Investigators also questioned the extent of his injuries and why he didn't identify himself to Martin as a Neighborhood Watch coordinator. Zimmerman said he didn't want to confront Martin.

Quote:
On June 26, 2012, the prosecution released the results of a voice stress test performed on George Zimmerman the day after the shooting. A voice stress test is a type of test used to measure deceptive or psychological stress in the human voice in response to questions. Zimmerman was asked, "Did you confront the guy you shot?", to which Zimmerman answered, "No." Zimmerman was asked, "Were you in fear for your life, when you shot the guy?", to which Zimmerman answered, "Yes."
The examiner concluded that Zimmerman "told substantially the complete truth" in the examination, and Zimmerman was classified as "No Deception Indicated (NDI)" according to the report.
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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 10:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Old School wrote:
It was not until Martin violently confronted Zimmerman, and in obvious self defense, Zimmerman, as a last resort, pulled his weapon and saved his own life.

And if Zimmerman is lying, how do you explain his injuries? Self inflicted?


I'm getting tired of all the bullshit. If you seriously think any of the smokescreen created by mendacious bigots writing for right-wing news outlets is true, take the bet. Time to put up or shut up.
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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 10:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Old School wrote:
juniper wrote:
Old School wrote:

My point is Martin had no idea Zimmerman was armed. It was not until Martin violently confronted Zimmerman, and in obvious self defense, Zimmerman, as a last resort, pulled his weapon and saved his own life.

And if Zimmerman is lying, how do you explain his injuries? Self inflicted?


The dubious part is that he turned around and then was attacked by martin. It's possible that zimmerman attacked martin, martin got the upper hand and then get shot.

We will never know. Sad isn't it?

Nope, that is not what happened, and is corroborated by the girlfriend's phone call. Martin went out of his way to attack Zimmerman.

Dude, that is already in the public record.


I don't actually disbelieve his story. Just not happy that he killed the only witness.
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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 12:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
Old School wrote:
juniper wrote:
Old School wrote:

My point is Martin had no idea Zimmerman was armed. It was not until Martin violently confronted Zimmerman, and in obvious self defense, Zimmerman, as a last resort, pulled his weapon and saved his own life.

And if Zimmerman is lying, how do you explain his injuries? Self inflicted?


The dubious part is that he turned around and then was attacked by martin. It's possible that zimmerman attacked martin, martin got the upper hand and then get shot.

We will never know. Sad isn't it?

Nope, that is not what happened, and is corroborated by the girlfriend's phone call. Martin went out of his way to attack Zimmerman.

Dude, that is already in the public record.


I don't actually disbelieve his story. Just not happy that he killed the only witness.

Yeah, like I said earlier, it's too bad Martin's life was snuffed out at so young an age.

And as I also said earlier, there are a handful of Trayvon Martins murdered in cold blood every day in Detroit and Chicago and Baltimore. Where is all their press and public concern?
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