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energyman76b
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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 7:45 pm    Post subject: Crap that is legal in the USA: Reply with quote

Like creating little retards:

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2013/05/03/south-carolina-christian-school-is-the-source-of-the-crazy-4th-grade-science-test/
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Libertardian denial of reality is wholly unimpressive and unconvincing, and simply serves to demonstrate what a bunch of delusional fools they all are.

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wildhorse
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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Holy shit, this is awesome! LOL USA
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Bones McCracker
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PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 12:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If this is real, this is truly sad and an abuse of those children.

Edit: okay I checked, and this is a tiny private school that does indeed teach a young-earth creationist curriculum. They graduated eight students this year.
http://www.brca.us/academics/lower-school-curriculum.html

That's the cost of freedom, I guess. Some people are going to do, say, think and believe things that most people wouldn't. If the alternative is the Government being able to force me do, say, think and believe only what they want, then no thank you; I'll tolerate a few idiots to the extent they don't violate my rights.

Authoritarianism doesn't fix it anyway, look at how the religious people came out of the woodwork immediately after the fall of the Soviet Union. Look at how half of Britons don't believe in the theory of evolution. Look at Ireland's blasphemy laws, Spain's abortion laws, Britain's State Church, Germany's laws against free speech, Italy's protection of the Sabbath, the Netherlands getting a new King in the 21st century, etc., etc. If you want to laugh at something, don't laugh at laws protecting freedom, laugh at real mass stupidity being forced on people.
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PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 3:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Legal is good. It means government has limits, even if barely.
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PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 6:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not sure if they teach evolution in Saudi Arabia and such places?
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PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 6:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Prenj wrote:
Not sure if they teach evolution in Saudi Arabia and such places?

No, their last law reform pre-dates Darwin by a few centuries.
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PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

USA, Saudi Arabia, pre-Darwin - nice comparison! :D
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PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 1:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wildhorse wrote:
USA, Saudi Arabia, pre-Darwin - nice comparison! :D

Shh or you will enrage the bald eagle.
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PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
That's the cost of freedom, I guess. Some people are going to do, say, think and believe things that most people wouldn't. If the alternative is the Government being able to force me do, say, think and believe only what they want, then no thank you; I'll tolerate a few idiots to the extent they don't violate my rights.

++

Freedom is like democracy: very nice to have, but not idiot-proof.
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PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 9:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Amaranatha wrote:
BoneKracker wrote:
That's the cost of freedom, I guess. Some people are going to do, say, think and believe things that most people wouldn't. If the alternative is the Government being able to force me do, say, think and believe only what they want, then no thank you; I'll tolerate a few idiots to the extent they don't violate my rights.

++

Freedom is like democracy: very nice to have, but not idiot-proof.


Churchill wrote:

"Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time."


At the end of the day they are free to teach what they like. At some point they have to adhere to some standard. Here we have the national curriculum so it doesn't matter what additional stuff you are taught as long as you meet that. You can have a faith school which teaches creationism (I am not sure that is the case here but nothing exists to stop it) BUT evolution is down as one of the core parts of the curriculum.

At the end of the day they will just teach themselves out of a future... Its going to be more of a concern how "accepted" this gets.
Its one thing for grown adults to completely swallow the Zombie religion and actually believe in the world is 6000years old and stuff like that (their right afterall) but to force this onto kids? I would consider this child abuse since it will significantly hamper their education.
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energyman76b
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PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 10:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

well, the society suffers if idiots are created purposely. So shouldn't have society a word in that matter?

What next? pi=3 because the bible said so? And would you trust an engineer basing his constructions on that?
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AidanJT wrote:

Libertardian denial of reality is wholly unimpressive and unconvincing, and simply serves to demonstrate what a bunch of delusional fools they all are.

Satan's got perfectly toned abs and rocks a c-cup.
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PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 10:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

energyman76b wrote:
well, the society suffers if idiots are created purposely. So shouldn't have society a word in that matter?

What next? pi=3 because the bible said so? And would you trust an engineer basing his constructions on that?

Thing is what if the majority of a society accept that? In the long run they will fucked themselves over but if a country wants to go that way... well what do we do? ask America to bomb them?
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energyman76b
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PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 10:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
energyman76b wrote:
well, the society suffers if idiots are created purposely. So shouldn't have society a word in that matter?

What next? pi=3 because the bible said so? And would you trust an engineer basing his constructions on that?

Thing is what if the majority of a society accept that? In the long run they will fucked themselves over but if a country wants to go that way... well what do we do? ask America to bomb them?


if they are so dumb, that might even work...
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AidanJT wrote:

Libertardian denial of reality is wholly unimpressive and unconvincing, and simply serves to demonstrate what a bunch of delusional fools they all are.

Satan's got perfectly toned abs and rocks a c-cup.
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Bones McCracker
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PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 11:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

They graduated eight people this year. I wonder how they did on their college entrance exams.
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PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 11:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:

That's the cost of freedom, I guess. Some people are going to do, say, think and believe things that most people wouldn't. If the alternative is the Government being able to force me do, say, think and believe only what they want, then no thank you; I'll tolerate a few idiots to the extent they don't violate my rights.

Authoritarianism doesn't fix it anyway, look at how the religious people came out of the woodwork immediately after the fall of the Soviet Union. Look at how half of Britons don't believe in the theory of evolution. Look at Ireland's blasphemy laws, Spain's abortion laws, Britain's State Church, Germany's laws against free speech, Italy's protection of the Sabbath, the Netherlands getting a new King in the 21st century, etc., etc. If you want to laugh at something, don't laugh at laws protecting freedom, laugh at real mass stupidity being forced on people.


yeah. that makes sense unfortunately. you can't put a gun at someone's head and tell them to teach their kids evolution.

there be idiots around. we have to deal with it.

however, you did say the following

BK wrote:

If this is real, this is truly sad and an abuse of those children.


if you think it is abuse, it should be stopped. As bad as it is, I hesitate to call it abuse. It's bad, but not that bad.


Last edited by juniper on Sun May 05, 2013 11:24 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Naib
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PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 11:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
They graduated eight people this year. I wonder how they did on their college entrance exams.
exactly my point. Its all well and good some school going "rogue" and teaching their own thing, but damned if their path of progression would be as open as others. Some form of English or religious studies or art I am sure they will be fine in, those subjects that don't actually generate wealth for a country... (but unfortunately do provide a path for political control)
But science?
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PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 11:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
They graduated eight people this year. I wonder how they did on their college entrance exams.


I am sure they went to some christian 'college'.....
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AidanJT wrote:

Libertardian denial of reality is wholly unimpressive and unconvincing, and simply serves to demonstrate what a bunch of delusional fools they all are.

Satan's got perfectly toned abs and rocks a c-cup.
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PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 11:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

energyman76b wrote:
BoneKracker wrote:
They graduated eight people this year. I wonder how they did on their college entrance exams.


I am sure they went to some christian 'college'.....


Like Notre Dame?
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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 12:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
BoneKracker wrote:
They graduated eight people this year. I wonder how they did on their college entrance exams.
exactly my point. Its all well and good some school going "rogue" and teaching their own thing, but damned if their path of progression would be as open as others. Some form of English or religious studies or art I am sure they will be fine in, those subjects that don't actually generate wealth for a country... (but unfortunately do provide a path for political control)
But science?

It's a small number of people. They are hurting themselves (I think it was Locke who said parental authority is derived from one's right to self-ownership, with the child being part of one's "self"). Are we to have the state intervene to prevent people from doing anything and everything that is contrary to what the state says is their best interests? The harm that kind of thinking will bring to a society is far greater than that caused by a few idiots trying to propagate their superstitious beliefs. If we believe that society as a collective, and not parents, should determine what is right for children, then this leads obviously to conclusion that all children should be placed in collective homes and raised by professional parents. Parents would have visitation rights, and maybe summers. Is that what we want? Maybe, maybe not.

I think the fact that the person who went ZOMG about this had to dig up some tiny school nobody's ever heard of that has only 8 people in an entire class is testament to the fact that this is not a big problem. I'd worry more about the state-level educational standards (e.g. Texas) that insist on teaching creationism as an alternative theory, in science class.

In fact, before I'd even worry about whether some kids are being "exposed" inappropriately to creationism in their science class, I'd worry about why so many of them in inner cities can't read or write or perform enough arithmetic to calculate a tip. These kids are way worse off than some kid who has to later forget some crap he was once taught.

The inner city educational problems are largely a parenting problem. At least some kid being sent to a private "Christian" school has parents who are involved enough in their life to care what they are learning. We've got bigger problems to worry about than this.
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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 11:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That is a different issue and one that plagues an annoyingly large number of cities around the world.
Ignorant children due to poor education is a big problem. An educated society helps everyone even if it is as little as they positively contribute to society or the economy

Teaching a belief, human interpretation of a faith as hard fact is a different problem all together
I'm all for religious education (as long as it is religious education and not christian or Islamic or... That's why I teach my boy about Norse, Greek, Hindi.... And not leave dogma purely to the wife...) But that's where it stays, in that subject if it is to be taught.

With the poor education, at least they are being exposed to correct facts even if they don't want to or can't take it in. This kind of thing is just wrong and I am glad it is indirectly banned here since it isn't science and this paper doesn't even conform to accepted scientific theory or religious dogma. This school and others like it should be ashamed and the parents should really think about the harm they are causing their children.
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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

But, teh free speech! Teh amendments! Teh religious freedom!
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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice try at an appeal to ridicule, but it fails because it's not the icing on a nicely-baked cake of strong argumentation. I pretty much agree with what Naib said. In my opinion, these people are in denial about reality I'm ashamed for them. Simultaneously, and without any sense of contradiction, I'm very glad I happen to live in a society that protects the human rights of people to think and believe what they will and to freely exchange and debate ideas and ideals, because this has value that far, far outweighs the harm done by scenarios such as this (even if we are rapidly sliding to join you in the pit of collectivist authoritarianism, down a hill slick with the shit of populist demagoguery).

This is particularly true when one considers that, along with "men rode dinosaurs" and similar nonsense, which they'll probably archive away as metaphor later in life, these kids are being indoctrinated by their parents with many positive things, such as "do unto others as you would have them do unto you".

I think it's rather sad that some people living in collectivist authoritarian societies, who benightedly wear the yoke of state control of their thinking, beliefs, and expression, can actually feel a sense of superiority over people not thus enslaved. It's like a group of sheep bleating in mockery at a free-running mountain goat, "Baaa-aaa-a-aah! Look at teh asshole mountain goat eating grass when we get corn!" Baa-aa-aaah! What a fucking buffoon!"
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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:

It's a small number of people. They are hurting themselves (I think it was Locke who said parental authority is derived from one's right to self-ownership, with the child being part of one's "self"). Are we to have the state intervene to prevent people from doing anything and everything that is contrary to what the state says is their best interests? The harm that kind of thinking will bring to a society is far greater than that caused by a few idiots trying to propagate their superstitious beliefs. If we believe that society as a collective, and not parents, should determine what is right for children, then this leads obviously to conclusion that all children should be placed in collective homes and raised by professional parents. Parents would have visitation rights, and maybe summers. Is that what we want? Maybe, maybe not.


The state should only intervene when there is clear evidence of abuse. We all have a different vision for what makes good kids and good parenting, but a lot of that depends on the parents and child. The state will never be able to hand down a set of laws that will simplify such a complex and intimate relationship, especially where there is an inherent imbalance of power and need. Nor should it try.
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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 11:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not so sure. I think maybe taking all the children away and putting them under professional tutelage might make sense. I think a system akin to the Lacedaimonian agoge would be the way to go, with more academic emphasis of course. (I mean, it makes a lot of sense from the collectivist perspective.) I don't think the inner-city and trailer-park mommas would mind much either, as long as they still got their extra baby-making money along with their welfare check and food stamps. The kids would probably be a hell of a lot better off.
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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 12:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only thing that can be done is the big universities, the big institutions, the powerhouses of the country (political, innovative, financial, legal...) basically artificially set an entry barrier
"you must hold X" and then they start accrediting teaching institutions.

This way people can teach what they want and the parents can send their kids where they want HOWEVER the ramifications can be clearly seen as door start to close.
This is actually to some degree already in operation in America and the UK.
The company I work for have entry levels to progress down certain branches. One such branch is ownership of a PhD or (MEng for brits... for a reason). this was also the same before the big buyout. SO it already exists in America but on an ad-hoc basis and it is done to ensure those that rise within the company are only those with a sound education.

The IET/IEE have for a long time pushed for Accredited degrees, overseeing all Electrical/Electronic awarded in the country. If the school fails to meet certain teaching requirements or a student fails to accrue a certain number of credits in key competencies you do not receive a BEng/MEng but instead a BSci/MSci. You then can only become chartered *IF* you have an accredited degree.
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