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sikpuppy
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PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 4:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kerrrrrrrrrrrrrnel
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PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 4:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sikpuppy wrote:
Kerrrrrrrrrrrrrnel
Funny how not long ago people were making fun of him, now they're his disciples.
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sikpuppy
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PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 5:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
sikpuppy wrote:
Kerrrrrrrrrrrrrnel
Funny how not long ago people were making fun of him, now they're his disciples.

That's people. Always changing their minds to follow the flock.
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PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 7:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
I thought dbus was yesterday's garbage? (out of favor and being replaced)

It is going to be implemented in the kernel.
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PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 8:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

genstorm wrote:
It is going to be implemented in the kernel.


And its not a late April Fools joke either, this is quite real. This is different than the previous AF_DBUS effect from earlier: kdbus (currently) has an API closer to that of the pty interface.
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erm67
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PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 10:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

genstorm wrote:
pjp wrote:
I thought dbus was yesterday's garbage? (out of favor and being replaced)

It is going to be implemented in the kernel.

Only in the linux kernel and since sysvinit needs to be compatible with different OSes won't make use of the kernel facility :-) different story with systemd.

What's the point implementing fancy features in the kernel if applications cannot take advantage of them in the name of UNIX compatibility?
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PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 11:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
sikpuppy wrote:
Kerrrrrrrrrrrrrnel
Funny how not long ago people were making fun of him, now they're his disciples.

Examples?
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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 12:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had nobody in particular in mind, but with a quick search and a randomly chosen thread from the results (15th thread to be exact), I did find
this post wrote:
You should be peddling this outside the Gentoo world. Gentoo is pretty much alone in the Linux world, taking the bold step of forking udev so we don't have to live what that systemd crap.
But it doesn't specifically criticize the person, so I suppose some could scyentifically disqualify that post.
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Bones McCracker
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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 2:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not "scyentifically", but actually disqualify, yes. That doesn't even mention him.

If you look harder, though, you'll also find me criticizing the way he has rolled this out, in a fashion that tends to force it on people, and how he has seemed to be somewhat less than fully honest about his intent and vision. Those are personally negative statements, if not "making fun of him".

However, where is this "disciple" behavior you contrast it with? You see me praising him personally somewhere, or evangelizing his vision? No. I think you see me somewhat reluctantly admitting that I like the product.

Maybe you have another example? You seemed to be were referring to multiple people?
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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 2:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
Not "scyentifically", but actually disqualify, yes. That doesn't even mention him.
OK mcgruff.
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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 2:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whatever. :?
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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 2:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
No. I think you see me somewhat reluctantly admitting that I like the product.

So the question I pose, earnestly, is what are you gaining from using systemd instead of openrc + eudev? Since you've been using it for a week or so, Can you iterate some, real or perceived benefits?

I don't think I've seen this aspect discussed yet in this thread and it interests me.
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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 3:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd rather not say. I don't want to get banned by pjp or persecuted by zealots.
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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 3:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you don't want to discuss it, don't. However, don't bring me into it. I haven't banned anyone but spammers in years.
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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 3:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What do you mean "bring you into it"? You've pretty much already jumped right into the middle of it, have you not?

It's obvious that you feel strongly about this. I'm just trying to be objective. Rather than just rant along with a bunch of people who haven't even actually seen the product in question, I decided to try it. Regardless of how much I think OpenRC is integral to the 'personality' of Gentoo, and regardless of whether I resent the way systemd is being slipped in the back door by fusing it to a product that has a virtual monopoly (udev), I have now tried the product, and I find that it is a good product, overall. More than that, I am afraid to say, lest I become an object of derision and hate to those who are emotionally invested in OpenRC.
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Last edited by Bones McCracker on Tue May 07, 2013 3:28 am; edited 2 times in total
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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 3:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"banned by pjp"? That has nothing to do with either of us discussing the topic. You seemed to be using that as an excuse to not respond or continue discussing the topic.
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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 3:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You said:
Quote:
Funny how not long ago people were making fun of him, now they're his disciples.

Then you gave me as an example. So I'm "funny", am I? Let me understand this.

You mean 'funny', like I’m a clown? I amuse you? I make you laugh? I’m here to fuckin’ amuse you? What do you mean "funny"?
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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 3:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
It's obvious that you feel strongly about this. I'm just trying to be objective. Rather than just rant along with a bunch of people who haven't even actually seen the product in question, I decided to try it. Regardless of how much I think OpenRC is integral to the 'personality' of Gentoo, and regardless of whether I resent the way systemd is being slipped in the back door by fusing it to a product that has a virtual monopoly (udev), I have now tried the product, and I find that it is a good product, overall. More than that, I am afraid to say, lest I become an object of derision and hate to those who are emotionally invested in OpenRC.
I don't care particularly about OpenRC. What I object to is an init system going Borg. If I recall, I think some initial objections (not necessarily yours) were that it resembled the Windows registry. That in and of itself isn't a problem IMO. But I don't think it is a Good Thing to absorb other functions, particularly when going beyond the traditional init "area of operation." Or at least without making it optional. "Use this and it replaces the standard init system. Include that, and you gain functionality while maintaining that's traditional use." Perfectly fine with an implementation of that nature.
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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 3:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, yeah, sure! And suddenly I can't connect! Did you bump me off, you SysOp from Hell? :P
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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 3:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
You said:
Quote:
Funny how not long ago people were making fun of him, now they're his disciples.

Then you gave me as an example. So I'm "funny", am I? Let me understand this.

You mean 'funny', like I’m a clown? I amuse you? I make you laugh? I’m here to fuckin’ amuse you? What do you mean "funny"?
:rotflmao:

Yeah, that's why I don't like giving examples when people ask for them. It was a general impression I had. I did find a second thread in which you referred to it as "crap" but no references to Poettering. I also that the reference to the extreme (disciples) was demonstrative of not being literal, as I couldn't imagine anyone thinking I truly meant religious followers.

Whether or not it is functional does not preclude whether or not it was (or is) "crap", whatever that meant. As an unassociated example, if it was crap because it was Borg-like, then because it actually works does not make it less Borg-like.
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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 3:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
Oh, yeah, sure! And suddenly I can't connect! Did you bump me off, you SysOp from Hell? :P
Hey, all I said was I don't ban people. :twisted:
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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 4:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
Whether or not it is functional does not preclude whether or not it was (or is) "crap", whatever that meant. As an unassociated example, if it was crap because it was Borg-like, then because it actually works does not make it less Borg-like.

I agree. I myself have said many negative things about the borg-like nature of it, both in terms of architecture and open source governance.

The most notable difference between systemd and openrc is that systemd is not only documented, but well-documented. OpenRC is poorly documented at best, with many aspects of it not documented at all. Systemd's more comprehensive functionality is, from an outside perspective, certainly borg-like. Internally, it is nearly as modular as the collection of components it 'wants' to replace, with many optional components, but in the sense that it's a single product, it's less modular. However, it does allow one to turn off many of its functions and to rely on external providers, or to integrate systemd with them (e.g., you can still use a cron daemon, or you can get rid of it and create "jobs" in systemd; you can rely on systemd's journald as your system logging daemon, or you can pipe journald output into your logging daemon (individual services can be configured to log to either)). It's also very fast, due to the more tightly-integrated architecture and less reliance on scripts (acknowledging that scripts provide flexibility and transparency).

There are aspects of it that I would describe as rough around the edges. There seem to have been assumptions made in design and choice of defaults that are based on Fedora or Freedesktop.org's ways of doing things. For example, it relies on dbus for its internal communication. It assumes you want kernel auditing. It wants to use canberra to make noise. I also believe it cannot be used without udev. It has a gui that is pretty much useless, at least at this point, (doesn't even allow you to enable or disable services). Both in the terminal and in the gui, it's presentation of dependencies and relationships between units is not very useful (although the same is true of every service manager I've seen). This is disappointing particularly with regard to the gui, since the whole point of a gui is to present things graphically. (dmitchell once whipped up a script for me in 5 minutes that created a graph of openrc dependencies.)

But, it works. It took me only a few minutes to gain enough of an understanding of it to turn off what I didn't want and add a couple services that weren't enabled by default. I don't really care about boot time for a desktop, but it reduced my boot time by several seconds (the portion it measures, which is from bootloader hand-off to display manager login presentation, was reduced from about 12 seconds to 5, without tinkering. I was able to get rid of lots of other stuff: sysvinit, openrc, syslog-ng, vixie-cron, logrotate, etc. (all of which can remain, but I wanted to test systemd as I believe it was intended to be used, all political correctness aside).

I don't know whether I will continue to use it on this desktop machine or go back to openrc, which I still have on my other two gentoo machines.
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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 11:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds like it's just rearing to become systemd-init, systemd-cron, etc. :D
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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 12:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't forget pam, acpid, ntpd, syslogd, etc. :lol:

Resistance is Futile.
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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 1:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Time will tell. VHS and BluRay both won, but neither because of technical superiority.
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