Gentoo Forums
Gentoo Forums
Gentoo Forums
Quick Search: in
I've decided to try systemd
View unanswered posts
View posts from last 24 hours

Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next  
Reply to topic    Gentoo Forums Forum Index Off the Wall
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
pjp
Administrator
Administrator


Joined: 16 Apr 2002
Posts: 16090
Location: Colorado

PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 10:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fran wrote:
Ergo, lazy.
I too stand by my earlier observation.

I'd add that if they aren't maintaining it "well," then perhaps it should be considered "semi abandoned."

Also, isn't that what overlays are for? Has nobody else created an overlay for systemd support?
_________________
lolgov. 'cause where we're going, you don't have civil liberties.

In Loving Memory
1787 - 2008
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
erm67
Tux's lil' helper
Tux's lil' helper


Joined: 01 Nov 2005
Posts: 130
Location: somewhere in Berlusconia.

PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 10:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

systemd [Git ] (git://git.o.g.o/user/systemd.git,...)
systemd-love [Git ] (git://github.com/Sabayon/systemd-...)
_________________
Truck!!
A posse ad esse non valet consequentia
Πάντα ῥεῖ
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Bones McCracker
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 1553
Location: U.S.A.

PostPosted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 1:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Systemd reads /etc/sysctl.d/* and (it would appear from the documentation) ignores /etc/systctl.conf. So, if have set anything in /etc/systctl.conf that's not already in systemd's default (/lib/sysctl.d/50-default.conf), then you should put it in /etc/sysctl.conf.

An alternative would be to disable to systemd-sysctl.service and create your own /etc/systemd/system/sysctl.service using the command
sysctl --system
Which will gather from all the commonly-used locations, including /etc/sysctl.conf.

Most people not doing something weird (e.g. router, embedded) probably give 0 shits and can just delete /etc/sysctl.conf, which is what I'm doing on this box.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Bones McCracker
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 1553
Location: U.S.A.

PostPosted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 1:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

erm67 wrote:
systemd [Git ] (git://git.o.g.o/user/systemd.git,...)
systemd-love [Git ] (git://github.com/Sabayon/systemd-...)


So Sabayon is also working to support it in parallel with openrc as an alternative init system. To switch you just eselect which one you want. :lol:
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Fran
Guru
Guru


Joined: 29 Feb 2004
Posts: 518
Location: Coruña (Spain)

PostPosted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 8:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
Yeah. Fran is swearing at them in the bug. Not good for morale.

Telling someone the devs didn't give a flying fuck is not swearing "at them", it's just swearing. And the truth (won't even respond to that sanctimonious John Brender guy). Anyway, seems like William is going to retake the bug. Now SpanKY will come, call everybody alternative-init-wankers again, say William's proposals are all wrong, and the thing gets abandoned once again :lol:
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
erm67
Tux's lil' helper
Tux's lil' helper


Joined: 01 Nov 2005
Posts: 130
Location: somewhere in Berlusconia.

PostPosted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 12:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well it is very likely that to fully support a systemd-only configuration a baselayout-3 needs to be rolled out, and apparently one of the complaints is that it was already painful enough to roll out baselayout-2. Bend systemd to install the gentoo way is probably a bad idea for the moment it is very likely that a mixed openrc-systemd system is the only solution for gentoo.

And what exactly is disturbing, if the init scripts stay?

For the moment I gave up the idea to install systemd on my uclibc-gentoo, it is already difficult enough to make a not-really-supported architecture work, maybe once I solved all problems I found I will try systemd on gentoo.
For the moment I only needed 4 custom ebuilds so it doesn't look so bad, and I have NFS working :-)
_________________
Truck!!
A posse ad esse non valet consequentia
Πάντα ῥεῖ
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Fran
Guru
Guru


Joined: 29 Feb 2004
Posts: 518
Location: Coruña (Spain)

PostPosted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

erm67 wrote:
Well it is very likely that to fully support a systemd-only configuration a baselayout-3 needs to be rolled out, and apparently one of the complaints is that it was already painful enough to roll out baselayout-2. Bend systemd to install the gentoo way is probably a bad idea for the moment it is very likely that a mixed openrc-systemd system is the only solution for gentoo.

Hm, I don't think something like that is necessary; baselayout-2.2 just has:

Code:
/etc/env.d/00basic
/etc/filesystems
/etc/gentoo-release
/etc/hosts
/etc/inputrc
/etc/issue
/etc/issue.logo
/etc/modprobe.d
/etc/modprobe.d/aliases.conf
/etc/modprobe.d/i386.conf
/etc/networks
/etc/os-release
/etc/profile
/etc/protocols
/etc/services
/etc/shells
/etc/sysctl.conf


All those files are also useful in a systemd system... and I can't think of many files that should be added to it (env.d/02locale must be created by hand right now with openrc, so just tell people to do the same with systemd and include vconsole.conf and hostname... like here).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
erm67
Tux's lil' helper
Tux's lil' helper


Joined: 01 Nov 2005
Posts: 130
Location: somewhere in Berlusconia.

PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.devel/85331

Maybe something is moving regarding systemd&gentoo ... at least in sabayon land, I guess the systemd-love overlay is the best place to look to find support.

As soon as I am done bootstrapping a new gentoo profile I will give it a try :-)
_________________
Truck!!
A posse ad esse non valet consequentia
Πάντα ῥεῖ
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Bones McCracker
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 1553
Location: U.S.A.

PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 11:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Either that or just use Arch.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
erm67
Tux's lil' helper
Tux's lil' helper


Joined: 01 Nov 2005
Posts: 130
Location: somewhere in Berlusconia.

PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 7:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
Either that or just use Arch with openrc


FTFY
_________________
Truck!!
A posse ad esse non valet consequentia
Πάντα ῥεῖ
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
pjp
Administrator
Administrator


Joined: 16 Apr 2002
Posts: 16090
Location: Colorado

PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm very glad Gentoo devs kicked systemd to the curb.
_________________
lolgov. 'cause where we're going, you don't have civil liberties.

In Loving Memory
1787 - 2008
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Bones McCracker
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 1553
Location: U.S.A.

PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
pjp
Administrator
Administrator


Joined: 16 Apr 2002
Posts: 16090
Location: Colorado

PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 1:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eventually. Once they get the gimp worked out, I'll probably even install Win8.
_________________
lolgov. 'cause where we're going, you don't have civil liberties.

In Loving Memory
1787 - 2008
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Bones McCracker
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 1553
Location: U.S.A.

PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 2:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GIMP is the worst name ever. They should rename it PIMP.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
pjp
Administrator
Administrator


Joined: 16 Apr 2002
Posts: 16090
Location: Colorado

PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 2:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I didn't mean GIMP, I meant the design choices in Win8 that made it gimp. That said, GIMP over PIMP.
_________________
lolgov. 'cause where we're going, you don't have civil liberties.

In Loving Memory
1787 - 2008
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
erm67
Tux's lil' helper
Tux's lil' helper


Joined: 01 Nov 2005
Posts: 130
Location: somewhere in Berlusconia.

PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 5:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
I'm very glad Gentoo devs kicked systemd to the curb.


Don't be so sure, apparently that crazy sabayon guy has some support inside and might even be able to get the job done. The real question is what will happen when gentoo has a mantained systemd and an eselect sysvinit?

btw, there is a bounty
sabayon wrote:
If you are interested in writing or porting systemd units and you have some experience with Portage, have a look at the systemd-love overay on GitHub. For each fully working, previously missing, systemd unit submitted to our Bugzilla we're willing to give you a 3.5€ bounty through PayPal. There are around 490 packages in Gentoo still missing systemd love.


And since apparently my "operation gentoo on the nas" is proceeding well, I hope systemd for gentoo will be cleaned up, systemd for embedded is really becoming interesting.
Fast booting time is more important on a router than on a desktop.
_________________
Truck!!
A posse ad esse non valet consequentia
Πάντα ῥεῖ
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
smartass
Apprentice
Apprentice


Joined: 04 Jul 2011
Posts: 189
Location: right behind you ... (you did turn around, didn't you?)

PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 11:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

erm67 wrote:
Fast booting time is more important on a router than on a desktop.

I'm surprised systemd is being considered on embedded systems, because AFAIK size constraints are often a bigger problem on embedded systems.
Also, as embedded systems often use some older and/or hand-crafted kernel image that strives to be small with only needed features, I would have thought there would be problems with supporting systemd with such a kernel?


Last edited by smartass on Sat May 04, 2013 1:38 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Bones McCracker
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 1553
Location: U.S.A.

PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
pjp
Administrator
Administrator


Joined: 16 Apr 2002
Posts: 16090
Location: Colorado

PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

erm67 wrote:
apparently that crazy sabayon [...]
I have no interest in what sabayon does or doesn't do. If they like systemd, good for them. As for Gentoo adopting systemd, well, I've been increasingly watching BSD land. For now, bhyve doesn't support AMD. After that, it'll probably become my new platform of choice.
_________________
lolgov. 'cause where we're going, you don't have civil liberties.

In Loving Memory
1787 - 2008
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
smartass
Apprentice
Apprentice


Joined: 04 Jul 2011
Posts: 189
Location: right behind you ... (you did turn around, didn't you?)

PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmm, here's a question: How long will it take for systemd to become the new standard or perish? Because this intermediate state is kinda exhausting for both sides.

Most of the system components usually have several different implementations/versions (e.g. shells, crons, networking, MTAs), but there usually is one the standard one or at least a common interface and a common set of features.

But right now systemd intentionally goes so far from all other init systems, that I cannot imagine that this will happen in the init systems group. So what happens? Systemd will become the new standard? With so many Sys-V(-like) "legacy" systems around and software designed for them?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
erm67
Tux's lil' helper
Tux's lil' helper


Joined: 01 Nov 2005
Posts: 130
Location: somewhere in Berlusconia.

PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

smartass wrote:
erm67 wrote:
Fast booting time is more important on a router than on a desktop.

I'm surprised systemd is being considered on embedded systems, because AFAIK size constraints are often a bigger problem on embedded systems.
Also, as embedded systems often use some older and/or hand-crafted kernel image that strives to be small with only needed features, I would have thought there would be problems with supporting systemd with such a kernel?


Well some bastard vendor (like broadcom) release their drivers only for a specific and usually old kernel version and it is impossible to upgrade, but exp. in arm land often open source drivers are available. Well hand crafted kernel ... why install useless drivers that will never be used? Flash is expensive :-)

buildroot (a base of many if not most firmwares) still recommends mdev (busybox) as init system it is the smallest possible solution, but systemd (udev) has been available for some time and can be used for more complex situations like using a usb host port for storage printers and so on. And don't forget cheap arm boards aka raspberrypi, beaglebone etc. that can be used as small PC or cheaper tablets.

Openembedded was the first to introduce systemd, openwrt (being a buildroot derivative) supports it as well, and I guess most other embedded distro does...

Everybody wants the router up and running as soon as possible after switching it on.

The video I linked talks about the initial problems they had to port systemd to the embedded world.

pjp wrote:
erm67 wrote:
apparently that crazy sabayon [...]
I have no interest in what sabayon does or doesn't do. If they like systemd, good for them.


Well I guess sometimes they do contribute something upstream :-)

smartass wrote:
Hmm, here's a question: How long will it take for systemd to become the new standard or perish? Because this intermediate state is kinda exhausting for both sides.

Most of the system components usually have several different implementations/versions (e.g. shells, crons, networking, MTAs), but there usually is one the standard one or at least a common interface and a common set of features.

But right now systemd intentionally goes so far from all other init systems, that I cannot imagine that this will happen in the init systems group. So what happens? Systemd will become the new standard? With so many Sys-V(-like) "legacy" systems around and software designed for them?


Well sysv init is not so diffused anymore, BSD doesn't use it, Fedora and Arch use systemd ubuntu uses upstart, debian still uses sysv init but offers both upstart and systemd support .....

And what software supports it? every os has subtle differences and the start script is almost never included in software packages
_________________
Truck!!
A posse ad esse non valet consequentia
Πάντα ῥεῖ
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
jonnevers
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 02 Jan 2003
Posts: 1592
Location: Gentoo64 land

PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 1:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've loaded Arch ARM on my raspberry pi's, delighted to see systemd as that means I can tinker with it off my main gentoo desktop. It does boot quite quickly.

For my desktop, I couldn't care less as I only ever reboot deliberately for a new kernel version. I do like openrc but not for any reason I particular besides its worked all this time. I would like to rice out and swap in a ssd + systemd and save my boots some seconds. The ssd alone shaves off a noticeable amount of time.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Bones McCracker
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 1553
Location: U.S.A.

PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 3:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm having no problems with systemd on this gentoo desktop. I required me to be a little less minimalist (for example, installing dbus, which I had managed to avoid). It also wants IPv6, and it looks like it was designed to work with policykit, but I said fuck you, for now.

So far, the only problem I've had is when I switched from nvidia-drivers to nouveau, but stupidly forgot to delete my nvidia-explicit xorg.conf.d/ file and to actually deinstall nvidia-drivers. So when I booted, KMS engaged the nouveau driver, but then X tried to load nvidia-drivers, and apparently just kept trying and failing, over and over again. So journald, which apparently comes configured to put all alert log messages on the root console, was spamming all root tty, effectively performing a denial of service, and I had to reboot in rescue mode to fix it.

Actually, that's pure PEBKAC, not a problem with systemd. :oops:

Overall, I have to say that I like it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Bones McCracker
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 1553
Location: U.S.A.

PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 3:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Overall, I have to say that I like it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
pjp
Administrator
Administrator


Joined: 16 Apr 2002
Posts: 16090
Location: Colorado

PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 4:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought dbus was yesterday's garbage? (out of favor and being replaced)
_________________
lolgov. 'cause where we're going, you don't have civil liberties.

In Loving Memory
1787 - 2008
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Gentoo Forums Forum Index Off the Wall All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Page 2 of 5

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum