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Bones McCracker
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 3:55 pm    Post subject: I've decided to try systemd Reply with quote

Installed it on a new machine I'm setting up. If anybody else is using it and has advice, I would appreciate it.

Seems pretty slick. Easy to setup and use. It's fast. My boot time (post bootloader to X login) went from 15 seconds to 5, without any manual optimization. It's calling many boot functions I don't need, so I imagine that could drop to 4 seconds or so. I don't care about this, but it might be useful on a laptop.

My only real complain so far is a suspicion that there's a big-ass memory leak in the journalctl utility or journald. Somehow, when I use journactl to examine its log, my RAM usage increases 200 or so MiB and it's irretrievable (still consumed after closing everything, echo 3 > /proc/sys/vm, etc.). I obsessively hate memory leaks. This is too big to be log buffering or something. Another minor complain is that it seems to be somewhat "freedesktop.org" oriented (uses dbus, policykit, etc., although they are optional). It's also even more of a Borg than I though it was, obviating sysvinit, openrc, crond, inetd, acpid, syslogd, klogd, logrotate, consolekit, and to the extent you might use one for remote administration, httpd.

At this point there doesn't seem to be a way (on Gentoo) to strip the system of all redundant tools without using an overlay or a couple of custom ebuilds. Most significantly, there is a sort of library of shell functions in OpenRC that are used elsewhere (in ebuilds, for example). Developers seems to be dawdling on splitting those out, due I think to reluctance to really support systemd as an alternative init system. One can get this from an overlay. I've also seen it offered as part of a "fake OpenRC" (but now I can't find it on the web again). For now I'm testing it without removing the other stuff, but I intend to test it in a fully stripped system by creating a couple of custom ebuilds:

1. an OpenRC ebuild that provides nothing but functions.sh
2. a baselayout-2 ebuild that does not depend on sysvinit
3. not sure what else I need at this point, but I figure it must break some other things

There are apparently some utilities that provide sysvinit-equivalent command names to call equivalent systemctl functions (e.g., "reboot" so you don't have to type systemctl reboot), but I think I'll try without these.

Setup was pretty trivial with the exception of ntpd. Most things are as easy as "systemctl enable foo.service". Ntpd required the creation of a little 5-line config file that will probably eventually be dropped in by the ntp package.

Anybody else testing systemd out?
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Fran
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
My only real complain so far is a suspicion that there's a big-ass memory leak

I don't remember seeing the journalctl memory leak. Right now I can't reproduce it, but maybe I already ran it.

Quote:
It's also even more of a Borg than I though it was, obviating sysvinit, openrc, crond, inetd,
acpid, syslogd, klogd, logrotate, consolekit, and to the extent you might use one for remote administration, httpd.

Hm, I'd rather have four tightly-coupled small-ish programs running (systemd, systemd-logind, systemd-udevd and systemd-journald) than 12 different utilities.

Quote:
At this point there doesn't seem to be a way (on Gentoo) to strip the system of all redundant tools without using an overlay

Just remove the openrc dependency from baselayout and add systemd to virtual/logger and to virtual/init. Then copy the functions.sh you can find in that systemd-only overlay to /etc/init.d. Now you can remove syslog, sysvinit and openrc. It you don't like useless config files you can add INSTALL_MASK="/etc/init.d /etc/conf.d /etc/runlevels" to make.conf. Simpler and safer than using that overlay; it changes too many ebuilds.

I've been running like that for days without any problem.

Quote:
There are apparently some utilities that provide sysvinit-equivalent command names

You can try without systemd-sysv-utils, but it just makes some useful symbolic links:

/sbin/halt -> ../usr/bin/systemctl
/sbin/init -> ../usr/bin/systemd
/sbin/poweroff -> ../usr/bin/systemctl
/sbin/reboot -> ../usr/bin/systemctl
/sbin/runlevel -> ../usr/bin/systemctl
/sbin/shutdown -> ../usr/bin/systemctl
/sbin/telinit -> ../usr/bin/systemctl
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Fran
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 6:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nope, no leak here. Restarted, 99MB used. Ran sudo journalctl -xn20, still 99MB used.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fran wrote:
Nope, no leak here. Restarted, 99MB used. Ran sudo journalctl -xn20, still 99MB used.
99 megabytes?! Maybe not a memory leak, but there's something seriously wrong.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 7:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pigeon768 wrote:
Fran wrote:
Nope, no leak here. Restarted, 99MB used. Ran sudo journalctl -xn20, still 99MB used.
99 megabytes?! Maybe not a memory leak, but there's something seriously wrong.

That's 99MB for my whole system running with X started:
Code:
~ $ free -h
             total       used       free     shared    buffers     cached
Mem:          7.8G       248M       7.5G         0B        37M       116M
-/+ buffers/cache:        94M       7.7G
Swap:           0B         0B         0B

not 99MB for journald or journalctl.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ahhh. Ok, that makes sense.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 8:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I cant say I've hit any memory leak or anything with the journal myself either, it'd be interesting to find out why that is happening.

Here is that fake openrc you are looking for btw: https://github.com/holliday/holliday/tree/master/sys-apps/openrc - I only noticed that problem a few days ago when I issued a revdep and it complained a little, I've had openrc and friends gone for months, wondered what the hell was going on.

Fran seems to have everything else well covered :)
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fran wrote:
pigeon768 wrote:
Fran wrote:
Nope, no leak here. Restarted, 99MB used. Ran sudo journalctl -xn20, still 99MB used.
99 megabytes?! Maybe not a memory leak, but there's something seriously wrong.

That's 99MB for my whole system running with X started:
Code:
~ $ free -h
             total       used       free     shared    buffers     cached
Mem:          7.8G       248M       7.5G         0B        37M       116M
-/+ buffers/cache:        94M       7.7G
Swap:           0B         0B         0B

not 99MB for journald or journalctl.

My whole system running with X started is 32 MiB. Then, after I run the journalctl command, it jumps by about 200 MiB and stays there. I didn't limit it 20 lines. I assume it's using less as a pager. Maybe it's also affected by how much is in the journal. This is on an ~amd64 multiprocessor box. It doesn't behave like a "leak", per se, though, in that running journalctl again doesn't consume any additional memory.

I'll have to investigate it further. It could be some other component of the system, such as dbus. I see multiple references to various memory leaks in journalctl in the Fedora or Red Hat bug tracking systems, but they all seem to refer to earlier releases and I assume were fixed.

Thanks for the tips on stripping redundant elements out of the system. That's exactly the approach I had intended to use, but wanted to let it settle a bit more before I started the butchery.

Fran wrote:
I've been running like that for days without any problem.

Is that intended to inspire confidence? What happens when those functions are modified by an openrc update (which you won't get)? Aren't those functions sometimes called at their target location rather than at the symlink?
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 8:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
Then, after I run the journalctl command, it jumps by about 200 MiB and stays there. I didn't limit it 20 lines. I assume it's using less as a pager. Maybe it's also affected by how much is in the journal. This is on an ~amd64 multiprocessor box. It doesn't behave like a "leak", per se, though, in that running journalctl again doesn't consume any additional memory.

Still can't reproduce it. I ran sudo journalctl, scrolled through hundreds of pages (memory usage increased as I did it), exited and memory usage decreased to exactly the same point as before I ran it. My journalctl starts on Apr 16, so quite big already.

BoneKracker wrote:
Is that intended to inspire confidence? What happens when those functions are modified by an openrc update (which you won't get)? Aren't those functions sometimes called at their target location rather than at the symlink?

Those functions are trivial, they probably won't change. The worst thing that can happen is that one of the scripts that depend on functions.sh fail, and if that happens it will be obvious and non-fatal (perl-cleaner, python-updater, gcc-config, etc. can be run manually). Anyway, I follow bug #373219, so if there is a change regarding that I'll notice. I don't think it will change soon, though, the last dev that spoke did it 20 months ago. They seem to be too busy fucking up the toolchain with automake-1.13 :roll: (right now dozens of packages fail to build in ~arch because of AM_CONFIG_HEADER).
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Everything seems to be working well. I only ended up needing one custom ebuild, as nothing is left depending on those two virtuals. Thanks for the help.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lol

"I've decided to try systemd"

"I only ended up needing one custom ebuild"
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
lol

"I've decided to try systemd"

"I only ended up needing one custom ebuild"

Because the gentoo devs are being lazy. Some bugs were opened almost 2 years ago, have very simple solutions and still get ignored:

https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=373219
https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=398631
https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=399615
https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=430912
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 4:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fran wrote:
Because the gentoo devs are being lazy.
Oh, I thought it was a volunteer effort. Maybe they just don't care to spend their time on systemd?
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
Oh, I thought it was a volunteer effort. Maybe they just don't care to spend their time on systemd?

Then why the hell have a systemd ebuild and provide .service files in so many packages. They care, otherwise there wouldn't be 43 dev comments in bug #373219. They agree it is a bug that should be resolved, but it seems they got bored with it and left it to rot. Ergo, lazy.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Or just too busy making openrc do all things systemd already does ;-)

But, hey, custom ebuilds are the fun of gentoo .....
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
Fran wrote:
Because the gentoo devs are being lazy.
Oh, I thought it was a volunteer effort. Maybe they just don't care to spend their time on systemd?

+ for that one.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 7:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fran wrote:
pjp wrote:
Oh, I thought it was a volunteer effort. Maybe they just don't care to spend their time on systemd?

Then why the hell have a systemd ebuild and provide .service files in so many packages. They care, otherwise there wouldn't be 43 dev comments in bug #373219. They agree it is a bug that should be resolved, but it seems they got bored with it and left it to rot. Ergo, lazy.


Laxy is not equivalent to free of charge...oh wait...maybe it is?

[edit] new word of the day, laxy
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

patrix_neo wrote:
pjp wrote:
Fran wrote:
Because the gentoo devs are being lazy.
Oh, I thought it was a volunteer effort. Maybe they just don't care to spend their time on systemd?

+ for that one.

Yeah. Fran is swearing at them in the bug. Not good for morale.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

patrix_neo wrote:
Fran wrote:
pjp wrote:
Oh, I thought it was a volunteer effort. Maybe they just don't care to spend their time on systemd?

Then why the hell have a systemd ebuild and provide .service files in so many packages. They care, otherwise there wouldn't be 43 dev comments in bug #373219. They agree it is a bug that should be resolved, but it seems they got bored with it and left it to rot. Ergo, lazy.


Laxy is not equivalent to free of charge...oh wait...maybe it is?

[edit] new word of the day, laxy

[edit2] I think one has to stay on the right foot before you accusate someone or somethings. Maybe you are right (I have not a clue) too. Then I hope someone connect.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
patrix_neo wrote:
pjp wrote:
Fran wrote:
Because the gentoo devs are being lazy.
Oh, I thought it was a volunteer effort. Maybe they just don't care to spend their time on systemd?

+ for that one.

Yeah. Fran is swearing at them in the bug. Not good for morale.

As I said, I hope someone connect if the thing is right. But buggering about it, then I hope that person knows it's background (gentoo in this case). It's not a rent-a-car thing.
[edit] I have no wife, so what do I know about bickering...nagging....etc.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 7:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

patrix_neo wrote:
BoneKracker wrote:
patrix_neo wrote:
pjp wrote:
Fran wrote:
Because the gentoo devs are being lazy.
Oh, I thought it was a volunteer effort. Maybe they just don't care to spend their time on systemd?

+ for that one.

Yeah. Fran is swearing at them in the bug. Not good for morale.

As I said, I hope someone connect if the thing is right. But buggering about it, then I hope that person knows it's background (gentoo in this case). It's not a rent-a-car thing.
[edit] I have no wife, so what do I know about bickering...nagging....etc.

[Edit1b] I think it's good ro raise the question and just even giving a hint about the error. Swearing is an approach too, but I don't know if that is the way around the wrench.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

patrix_neo wrote:
patrix_neo wrote:
BoneKracker wrote:
patrix_neo wrote:
pjp wrote:
Fran wrote:
Because the gentoo devs are being lazy.
Oh, I thought it was a volunteer effort. Maybe they just don't care to spend their time on systemd?

+ for that one.

Yeah. Fran is swearing at them in the bug. Not good for morale.

As I said, I hope someone connect if the thing is right. But buggering about it, then I hope that person knows it's background (gentoo in this case). It's not a rent-a-car thing.
[edit] I have no wife, so what do I know about bickering...nagging....etc.

[Edit1b] I think it's good ro raise the question and just even giving a hint about the error. Swearing is an approach too, but I do not know if that is the way around the wrench.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Friday night drunk-posting? :lol:
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is env-update normally run during a reboot, or is it only called by ebuilds?
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 9:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
Friday night drunk-posting? :lol:

shaddap :)
[Edit1.1.5]: But you know I am right. Or else the universe it self, the supersymetry would be in disorder.
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