Gentoo Forums
Gentoo Forums
Gentoo Forums
Quick Search: in
First Distro casualty of Systemd?
View unanswered posts
View posts from last 24 hours

Goto page Previous  1, 2  
Reply to topic    Gentoo Forums Forum Index Off the Wall
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Dr.Willy
Guru
Guru


Joined: 15 Jul 2007
Posts: 353
Location: NRW, Germany

PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 9:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wswartzendruber wrote:
systemd is, in my opinion, a giant mess with its requirement for a web server. That's just absurd.

I read that sentence. Then I laughed. And then I was like "Wait a minute, was that even a joke?". I can't even tell at this point :?
The Horror.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
notageek
Tux's lil' helper
Tux's lil' helper


Joined: 05 Jun 2008
Posts: 120
Location: Bangalore, India

PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 10:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

:lol: :lol:
_________________
There is no guarantee a stupid Dalai Lama won’t come next
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Fran
Guru
Guru


Joined: 29 Feb 2004
Posts: 524
Location: Coruña (Spain)

PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 10:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dr.Willy wrote:
wswartzendruber wrote:
systemd is, in my opinion, a giant mess with its requirement for a web server. That's just absurd.

I read that sentence. Then I laughed. And then I was like "Wait a minute, was that even a joke?". I can't even tell at this point :?
The Horror.

Ok, I think I know what he means:
systemd/metadata.xml:
<flag name='http'>Enable embedded HTTP server in journald</flag>

So, not a requirement. I don't have a web server installed.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
aidanjt
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 20 Feb 2005
Posts: 1102
Location: Rep. of Ireland

PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fran wrote:
Mardok45 wrote:
2. Monolithic crapshoots still manage to run strong due to lots of money and users (Windows, Linux, X11, etc)

Yep. I don't see many people complaining about Linux, and it IS a gigantic blob. As long as it works well, who cares if it was developed as a single package or 10 different ones.

Linux can be swapped out, and because the external interfaces are stable, you don't have to worry about that changing in the future. And while Linux's job scope needs it to be very big if it's to support all the hardware, filing systems, etc. that it does, and does so as modularly as a monolithic system can be, the same isn't excusable for userspace programmes, especially when they're infested with a smattering of parasitical APIs which do the same job as completely standard interfaces, only worse.
_________________
juniper wrote:
you experience political reality dilation when travelling at american political speeds. it's in einstein's formulas. it's not their fault.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
erm67
Tux's lil' helper
Tux's lil' helper


Joined: 01 Nov 2005
Posts: 130
Location: somewhere in Berlusconia.

PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 12:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fran wrote:

erm67 wrote:
The only "real" disadvantage is the journal feature of systemd, that replaces syslog, it is cumbersome and not so useful as for example rsyslog

Hm, I don't see any problems with it from the little time I've used it, but I never needed syslogd for anything more than "tail /var/log/messages" :) (something replaced by journalctl -xn40). Cron is more featureful, of course, and you can use it instead; but for my needs systemd is enough, so one less daemon.


Well before systemd I used to send all syslogs over tcp to the nas, to save some space on my laptop, but since systemd is going to store it anyway locally I gave up :-)

I don't remember exactly what prevented me from using the cron included in systemd, I think it something to do with weekly backups ...
aidanjt wrote:
Fran wrote:
Mardok45 wrote:
2. Monolithic crapshoots still manage to run strong due to lots of money and users (Windows, Linux, X11, etc)

Yep. I don't see many people complaining about Linux, and it IS a gigantic blob. As long as it works well, who cares if it was developed as a single package or 10 different ones.

Linux can be swapped out, and because the external interfaces are stable, you don't have to worry about that changing in the future. And while Linux's job scope needs it to be very big if it's to support all the hardware, filing systems, etc. that it does, and does so as modularly as a monolithic system can be, the same isn't excusable for userspace programmes, especially when they're infested with a smattering of parasitical APIs which do the same job as completely standard interfaces, only worse.


Linux is just one unix flavour, the most diffused flavour (macosx) differs significantly from the standard interface, also android (again a lot more diffused than linux) differs significantly, why should the pure unix interfaces be kept in linux?
linux != unix
_________________
Truck!!
A posse ad esse non valet consequentia
Πάντα ῥεῖ
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
aidanjt
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 20 Feb 2005
Posts: 1102
Location: Rep. of Ireland

PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 12:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

erm67 wrote:
Linux is just one unix flavour, the most diffused flavour (macosx) differs significantly from the standard interface, also android (again a lot more diffused than linux) differs significantly, why should the pure unix interfaces be kept in linux?
linux != unix

Because those pure UNIX interfaces are the very thing responsible for the extreme software portability the unicies so enjoy?
_________________
juniper wrote:
you experience political reality dilation when travelling at american political speeds. it's in einstein's formulas. it's not their fault.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
erm67
Tux's lil' helper
Tux's lil' helper


Joined: 01 Nov 2005
Posts: 130
Location: somewhere in Berlusconia.

PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 1:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aidanjt wrote:
erm67 wrote:
Linux is just one unix flavour, the most diffused flavour (macosx) differs significantly from the standard interface, also android (again a lot more diffused than linux) differs significantly, why should the pure unix interfaces be kept in linux?
linux != unix

Because those pure UNIX interfaces are the very thing responsible for the extreme software portability the unicies so enjoy?

Does the fact that linux (just like most others do) diverge from pure unix interfaces affects in any way the extreme software portability of unix as a whole?
_________________
Truck!!
A posse ad esse non valet consequentia
Πάντα ῥεῖ
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
aidanjt
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 20 Feb 2005
Posts: 1102
Location: Rep. of Ireland

PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

erm67 wrote:
Does the fact that linux (just like most others do) diverge from pure unix interfaces affects in any way the extreme software portability of unix as a whole?

Given that systemd is Linux-only for that very reason, and Gnome is heading in that direction as well... Yes, absolutely.
_________________
juniper wrote:
you experience political reality dilation when travelling at american political speeds. it's in einstein's formulas. it's not their fault.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
erm67
Tux's lil' helper
Tux's lil' helper


Joined: 01 Nov 2005
Posts: 130
Location: somewhere in Berlusconia.

PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aidanjt wrote:
erm67 wrote:
Does the fact that linux (just like most others do) diverge from pure unix interfaces affects in any way the extreme software portability of unix as a whole?

Given that systemd is Linux-only for that very reason, and Gnome is heading in that direction as well... Yes, absolutely.

But linux is not unix, I rephrase as:

Does the fact that a linux flavour (just like most others do) diverge from pure unix interfaces affect in any way the extreme software portability of unix as a whole?

Why should linux be forced to strict compliance?
_________________
Truck!!
A posse ad esse non valet consequentia
Πάντα ῥεῖ


Last edited by erm67 on Wed Apr 17, 2013 6:50 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
energyman76b
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 26 Mar 2003
Posts: 2031
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

erm67 wrote:
aidanjt wrote:
erm67 wrote:
Does the fact that linux (just like most others do) diverge from pure unix interfaces affects in any way the extreme software portability of unix as a whole?

Given that systemd is Linux-only for that very reason, and Gnome is heading in that direction as well... Yes, absolutely.

But linux is not unix, I rephrase as:

Does the fact that a linux flavour (just like most others do) diverge from pure unix interfaces affects in any way the extreme software portability of unix as a whole?

Why should linux be forced to strict compliance?


compliance to what? good taste? good practice?

the standard way to transfer information between applications is text. In unices. And linux. Which made piping so easy and powerful.

Until systemd shat all over the place.

I let you figure out why text is so much better than some binary crap.
_________________
AidanJT wrote:

Libertardian denial of reality is wholly unimpressive and unconvincing, and simply serves to demonstrate what a bunch of delusional fools they all are.

Satan's got perfectly toned abs and rocks a c-cup.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
erm67
Tux's lil' helper
Tux's lil' helper


Joined: 01 Nov 2005
Posts: 130
Location: somewhere in Berlusconia.

PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 6:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

energyman76b wrote:
erm67 wrote:
aidanjt wrote:
erm67 wrote:
Does the fact that linux (just like most others do) diverge from pure unix interfaces affects in any way the extreme software portability of unix as a whole?

Given that systemd is Linux-only for that very reason, and Gnome is heading in that direction as well... Yes, absolutely.

But linux is not unix, I rephrase as:

Does the fact that a linux flavour (just like most others do) diverge from pure unix interfaces affects in any way the extreme software portability of unix as a whole?

Why should linux be forced to strict compliance?


compliance to what? good taste? good practice?

the standard way to transfer information between applications is text. In unices. And linux. Which made piping so easy and powerful.

Until systemd shat all over the place.

I let you figure out why text is so much better than some binary crap.


systemd did not introduce dbus, nor udev, nor cgroups, nor autofs, nor devtmpfs, nor debugfs, nor configfs and it communicates with all those linux specific interfaces with pipes and text. do you pipe something to init scripts? no, but they use pipes just like systemd does.
_________________
Truck!!
A posse ad esse non valet consequentia
Πάντα ῥεῖ
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
aidanjt
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 20 Feb 2005
Posts: 1102
Location: Rep. of Ireland

PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

erm67 wrote:
But linux is not unix

That's like saying coca-cola isn't a cola.

erm67 wrote:
I rephrase as:

Does the fact that a linux flavour (just like most others do) diverge from pure unix interfaces affect in any way the extreme software portability of unix as a whole?

I already pointed out two major examples where it is breaking portability horribly. What if some moron decides to make a 'networkkit' 'framework' so we don't have to bother with all these annoying 'platform dependant' sockets APIs (even though only winsock really differs, very slightly), and then makes it hard depend on a Linux feature, then what the fuck was the point in depending on the piece of shit in the first place? It makes NO sense whatsoever.

erm67 wrote:
Why should linux be forced to strict compliance?

Because Linux isn't the only UNIX clone out there. And there is exactly zero advantage of being a divisive cunt to other unicies.
_________________
juniper wrote:
you experience political reality dilation when travelling at american political speeds. it's in einstein's formulas. it's not their fault.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
energyman76b
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 26 Mar 2003
Posts: 2031
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

erm67 wrote:
energyman76b wrote:
erm67 wrote:
aidanjt wrote:
erm67 wrote:
Does the fact that linux (just like most others do) diverge from pure unix interfaces affects in any way the extreme software portability of unix as a whole?

Given that systemd is Linux-only for that very reason, and Gnome is heading in that direction as well... Yes, absolutely.

But linux is not unix, I rephrase as:

Does the fact that a linux flavour (just like most others do) diverge from pure unix interfaces affects in any way the extreme software portability of unix as a whole?

Why should linux be forced to strict compliance?


compliance to what? good taste? good practice?

the standard way to transfer information between applications is text. In unices. And linux. Which made piping so easy and powerful.

Until systemd shat all over the place.

I let you figure out why text is so much better than some binary crap.


systemd did not introduce dbus, nor udev, nor cgroups, nor autofs, nor devtmpfs, nor debugfs, nor configfs and it communicates with all those linux specific interfaces with pipes and text. do you pipe something to init scripts? no, but they use pipes just like systemd does.


please read systemd's journal with cat. Or less. Or tail. Please pipe it (easily) through sed. Do you see a pattern?
devtmpfs is not a way to share information. It is just a devfs clone... udev uses a text based source of information (the files in /sys) to react to certain changes. And dbus integration in systemd is just idiotic. I am sorry.
_________________
AidanJT wrote:

Libertardian denial of reality is wholly unimpressive and unconvincing, and simply serves to demonstrate what a bunch of delusional fools they all are.

Satan's got perfectly toned abs and rocks a c-cup.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mardok45
n00b
n00b


Joined: 21 Jun 2008
Posts: 64
Location: Right behind you

PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 10:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

energyman76b wrote:
please read systemd's journal with cat. Or less. Or tail. Please pipe it (easily) through sed. Do you see a pattern?

Why are you bikeshedding such a minor point? If you want a log from a certain date or service, use something like this:

Code:

journald --no-pager --since=today -u apache.service | sed 'my/uber/regex' | less
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
energyman76b
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 26 Mar 2003
Posts: 2031
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 10:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mardok45 wrote:
energyman76b wrote:
please read systemd's journal with cat. Or less. Or tail. Please pipe it (easily) through sed. Do you see a pattern?

Why are you bikeshedding such a minor point? If you want a log from a certain date or service, use something like this:

Code:

journald --no-pager --since=today -u apache.service | sed 'my/uber/regex' | less


which is great - as long as systemd and journald is running/working. But what do you do with a hard crashed system?
_________________
AidanJT wrote:

Libertardian denial of reality is wholly unimpressive and unconvincing, and simply serves to demonstrate what a bunch of delusional fools they all are.

Satan's got perfectly toned abs and rocks a c-cup.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
erm67
Tux's lil' helper
Tux's lil' helper


Joined: 01 Nov 2005
Posts: 130
Location: somewhere in Berlusconia.

PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 3:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

energyman76b wrote:
Mardok45 wrote:
energyman76b wrote:
please read systemd's journal with cat. Or less. Or tail. Please pipe it (easily) through sed. Do you see a pattern?

Why are you bikeshedding such a minor point? If you want a log from a certain date or service, use something like this:

Code:

journald --no-pager --since=today -u apache.service | sed 'my/uber/regex' | less


which is great - as long as systemd and journald is running/working. But what do you do with a hard crashed system?


systemd is init, process number 1, so no process number 1 == system is not running.

So your question is 'how do I read logs from the disk of an offline system' or using a rescue disk?

journalctl
-D --directory=PATH Show journal files from directory
--root=ROOT Operate on catalog files underneath the root ROOT
--interval=TIME Time interval for changing the FSS sealing key
--verify-key=KEY Specify FSS verification key

If you really need /var/log/messages you can run a second logging daemon and disable persistent logging, i.e. use a small circular buffer for systemd and save a regular log. It always results in a bit of hd waste but not that much.
_________________
Truck!!
A posse ad esse non valet consequentia
Πάντα ῥεῖ
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Dominique_71
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 17 Aug 2005
Posts: 1508
Location: Switzerland (Romandie)

PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 11:28 am    Post subject: Re: First Distro casualty of Systemd? Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
http://www.linuxadvocates.com/2013/04/developer-dissatisfaction-looms-with.html

Quote:
Fuduntu Founder +Andrew Wyatt returned fire with this volley:

ConsoleKit + UDev + Syslog + DBus + Polkit + Sysinit + this + that.


The first error was to integrate polkit which is nothing more than a screwware.tm. Hopefully, it is a whole world outside of RedHat and Gnome. :lol:
_________________
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading that text: please consider ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Gentoo Forums Forum Index Off the Wall All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2
Page 2 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum